Calderis

Spiritual FTL

26 posts in this topic

This is a totally random idea that popped into my head, and I have no idea how it would work to be accessed, but perhaps this is how the Oath gates already function... 

The spiritual realm is location independent. So what if one method of Cosmere FTL is a equivalent of "folding space" by using a wormhole through the spiritual realm to literally bypass the intervening distance. 

There would be no real speed requirements, just the fuel/method to open the tunnel. 

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Oh nice! Take an upvote for this cool idea. I like the Event Horizon/Macross method you have going on. I also have no ideas to support or deny it, but it makes a realmatic sense to me, based on the Spiritual Realm location-independence. But how to get there and back out again... As far as Rosharan FTL, I daydream of Shardships powered by Fabrial Drives, or maybe Navigators using Surges(Gravitation? Maybe mixed with another Surge?). Now I'm wondering if perhaps Elsecalling is the answer, and if perhaps one can somehow get to the Spiritual. Perhaps by first going through the Cognitive? Realmatic shifting as transportation makes me think of Warrens in the Malazan books.
I CAN'T WAIT FOR SCI-FI STORMLIGHT!

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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

There would be no real speed requirements, just the fuel/method to open the tunnel. 

Posssibly needing the investiture from a certain area to go/leave there?

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Maybe you would use an object with a lot of connection to a certain location in order to travel to that location?

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1 hour ago, ElephantEarwax said:

Posssibly needing the investiture from a certain area to go/leave there?

The mechanics of the magic are Cosmere wide, so unless your investiture source is from Sel, and thus location dependant, it should work anywhere. 

3 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

Maybe you would use an object with a lot of connection to a certain location in order to travel to that location?

Oooooo. Yeah, use the connection of an item for a focus to a place you haven't been before. If you had a strong enough understanding of the realmatics I can totally see that working. 

The biggest problem I see with using the spiritual for transport is the issue of accidental time travel. You'd need something to focus your exit on both the place and time you want to come out. Unless the default is the same moment, in which case the same technique could potentially be used for time travel if you knew how to manipulate the exit point properly. 

Either way, teleportation and time travel brought to you by the Spiritual Realm. 

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It could be that you don't necessarily actually travel through the spirit realm. instead, you just rewrite your sDNA physical placement connection to the location you are currently at, thus making you and the things around you move to a different location. 

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2 minutes ago, Just another guyn said:

It could be that you don't necessarily actually travel through the spirit realm. instead, you just rewrite your sDNA physical placement connection to the location you are currently at, thus making you and the things around you move to a different location. 

Without actually passing through the Spiritual Realm physically, I think you'd be forced to traverse the physical (or Cognitive) space between. 

That's actually why I brought up the Oathgates. From the perspective of people using one, they effectively teleport. Knowing that we have an realm that is essentially one dimensional that is pervasive throughout the entirety of the Cosmere gives a mechanism to explain the surge of transportation, and Aon Tia (and whatever the Dahkor version is called). If they all function by passing the body through the spiritual realm, even if only for a millionth of a second, then we have an in world mechanic that could be expanded for other uses, like a stable gateway between worlds. 

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7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Without actually passing through the Spiritual Realm physically, I think you'd be forced to traverse the physical (or Cognitive) space between. 

That's actually why I brought up the Oathgates. From the perspective of people using one, they effectively teleport. Knowing that we have an realm that is essentially one dimensional that is pervasive throughout the entirety of the Cosmere gives a mechanism to explain the surge of transportation, and Aon Tia (and whatever the Dahkor version is called). If they all function by passing the body through the spiritual realm, even if only for a millionth of a second, then we have an in world mechanic that could be expanded for other uses, like a stable gateway between worlds. 

I dont think you would have to traverse the disance phisically. for example, in a video game your avatar is your "pysical" form, and its location is determined by code (sDNA). By editing your code, your avatar is suddenly somewhere else. He didn't travel through the code, he just teleported because his sDNA was altered.Now instead you select all the objects in a certain area, and switch the physical location variable with that of something else, and your teleporting platforms are achieved.

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28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The biggest problem I see with using the spiritual for transport is the issue of accidental time travel. You'd need something to focus your exit on both the place and time you want to come out. Unless the default is the same moment, in which case the same technique could potentially be used for time travel if you knew how to manipulate the exit point properly. 

I mean if we want to get pedantic here all FTL communication and movement entail time travel. :mellow:

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13 minutes ago, Just another guyn said:

I dont think you would have to traverse the disance phisically. for example, in a video game your avatar is your "pysical" form, and its location is determined by code (sDNA). By editing your code, your avatar is suddenly somewhere else. He didn't travel through the code, he just teleported because his sDNA was altered.Now instead you select all the objects in a certain area, and switch the physical location variable with that of something else, and your teleporting platforms are achieved.

I think this is where we disagree. I don't think your physical location is determined by your SDNA. it's merely a part of yourself located in the Spiritual Realm. Changing your SDNA can change aspects of your personality, you physical manifestation. It can change the way that the body is formed, but not where the body is. I see it as code written specifically for a piece of hardware. The hardware most be transported. The code can change the way that the software functions, but can't relocate the hardware. 

@Kurkistan if you want to get that technical, by the time we experience anything it's already past. 

Edited by Calderis
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A lot of sci-fi series handle FTL travel by either creating a spacecraft that can travel faster than the speed of light (think Star Wars, jumping into hyperspace), or it's by a method similar to what you're talking about here. Exit the time domain we live in and enter a place where time and space don't exist, then re-enter our world in a different physical location. If Sanderson wants to use the second route, I could see it involving the Spiritual Realm. We know a bit about how traveling works in the Cognitive Realm, and simply entering that realm doesn't appear to grant any FTL traveling capabilities. Space still exists in the Cognitive Realm, it's just a 2D plane instead of 3D. 

We might possibly get some headway on this one in Oathbringer if Shallan or someone studies the Oathgates more in depth. I would be interested to know if the transportation involved with Oathgates and Aon Tia involved the person entering the Spiritual Realm completely to make the jump from one location to the next. 

 

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Considering how the Oathgates, Aon Tia and Dakhor teleport their subjects without concern for time, matter, etc, I think that they do in fact pass through the Spiritual realm. And I doubt you'd need that complex of tech to create more permanent portals.

In fact, I suspect that AonDor would be able to do it without too much hastle, even if you'd have to have Elantris on one end of every single portal. That could be cool: Elantrians start making permanent portals from Elantris to specific key locations elsewhere in the Cosmere, and thus becoming a hub for FTL travel. This is of course assuming that Aon Tia has enough range to go from planet to planet, and that such a portal would work both ways. :)

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22 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Considering how the Oathgates, Aon Tia and Dakhor teleport their subjects without concern for time, matter, etc, I think that they do in fact pass through the Spiritual realm. And I doubt you'd need that complex of tech to create more permanent portals.

In fact, I suspect that AonDor would be able to do it without too much hastle, even if you'd have to have Elantris on one end of every single portal. That could be cool: Elantrians start making permanent portals from Elantris to specific key locations elsewhere in the Cosmere, and thus becoming a hub for FTL travel. This is of course assuming that Aon Tia has enough range to go from planet to planet, and that such a portal would work both ways. :)

Heh, why travel the Cosmere when you can bring it home. 

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Interesting theory. Folding space is essentially how the Cognitive Realm works in the gaps between planets, where you can walk from one planet to another without passing through the space in between (mostly). I...personally don't feel it involves the Spiritual Realm precisely because there is no space in the Spiritual Realm. I don't think a physical body can enter and exit the Spiritual Realm, things like Elend glimpsing it was just that, seeing into it, not entering it, I think. But I do struggle to figure out how instantaneous teleportation works. Elsecallers can enter the Cognitive Realm, but how do they actually get to the next planet or location? Do they run like hell? Do they teleport into the CR and then teleport within the CR? I find it a bit baffling. However I still think it's the Cognitive Realm, not the Spiritual Realm they're using.

On the Oathgate question, this questionable WoB makes it really sound to me like it's a cognitive thing

Quote

Question

The key to the [Oathgates], is that [???]?

Brandon Sanderson

That’s a very good question, you would find out more about that when you see them from the cognitive side.

Everything we've heard about Elsecalling has indicated it's Cognitive Realm stuff.

So I'm at a bit of a loss as to the realmatics of instantaneous teleportation. But I still feel that it doesn't involve the Spiritual Realm, at least not 'physically', that it's all in the Cognitive Realm. Maybe when someone is physically in the Cognitive Realm it changes the way space and time works for them.

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8 minutes ago, Extesian said:

So I'm at a bit of a loss as to the realmatics of instantaneous teleportation. But I still feel that it doesn't involve the Spiritual Realm, at least not 'physically', that it's all in the Cognitive Realm. Maybe when someone is physically in the Cognitive Realm it changes the way space and time works for them.

Honestly, I don't really hold much to the SR thing anyways. My point was that Teleportation is different from FTL travel since it just pops you there, you aren't going through the space in between. And I think that is why there aren't any time travel things going on. I don't see timetravel coming into the Cosmere tbh.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

I don't see timetravel coming into the Cosmere tbh.

So um... The "time travel" tag on Theoryland disagrees. I haven't seen any of these before.

Quote

the_archduke

(overheard at a distance) Is there time travel in the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

We haven't seen time travel into the past, but we have seen it into the future in Alloy of Law.
Quote

Question

Can Worldhoppers travel forwards and backwards in time or are they stuck going forward?

Brandon Sanderson

They are stuck going forward. Good question.

Question

So Hoid has to move in a straight line?

Brandon Sanderson

He has to move in a straight line. It can squish-- stretch or squish that line but he can’t go back along the line.
Quote

Question

no question

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible to travel back in time. I think the exact words went more or less like: "Nobody has managed to travel backwards in time yet."
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18 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

So um... The "time travel" tag on Theoryland disagrees. I haven't seen any of these before.

I knew the middle one but I'd never seen the other two. I.......disagree with the first. I think it's a misunderstanding, or most likely he just meant people travelling 'forward' in time in the sense of time dilation. I also don't believe the last one because of it's messed up nature for fiction, the whole paradox of if anyone will ever be able to go backwards in time, they one day will, which means that they already have, which means the present is too fungible. I'm really curious about those though. If I get the time I'll do a bunch of research and add them onto my Unmaking the canon thread.

But yeah I would be completely shocked if Brandon allows backwards time travel in the Cosmere. Forwards, maybe - but I think it will be limited to time dilation.

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41 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Folding space is essentially how the Cognitive Realm works in the gaps between planets, where you can walk from one planet to another without passing through the space in between (mostly)

I must envision either the Cognitive Realm or the term "Folding space" differently than you do. 

The Cognitive Realm is definitely warp by compacting and expanding relative to the density of minds... But that's more... Altered space. 

For folding space I always envisioned it like folding a piece of paper in half so that two points at opposite ends literally touch, so you step across and skip every point between. 

44 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I don't think a physical body can enter and exit the Spiritual Realm, things like Elend glimpsing it was just that, seeing into it, not entering it, I think.

I disagree mainly because of this WoB 

Spoilered for length 

Spoiler

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1160#47

ARGENT

Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it...

ARGENT

As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No...

QUESTION

As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm.

ARGENT

Oh, that's what happens there.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit.

ARGENT

So, Vin?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony...

QUESTION

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. [edited for clarity- Original was: Most of the bulk of what the Shard's energy of being is contained on the Spiritual Realm] Except for one notable exception!

QUESTION

The mistwraith? [I would guess she meant the mist spirit]

BRANDON SANDERSON

No.

By what that says, Elend got more than a "glimpse" and was more in the Spiritual than the physical. That implies that you could transition fully. That said, I don't think the mind could actually handle being there long enough to observe anything, and that's why for this method of travel to work, you'd basically be using it as door to step through and not actually stay there. 

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Just now, Extesian said:

Forwards, maybe - but I think it will be limited to time dilation

I agree with most all of what you said. My post was originally quite different, but in the process of searching for that time dilation WoB, I found the "time travel" tag and.. you know the rest.

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@Calderis I think we imagine folding space the same way. Obviously it’s hard to compare the Cognitive Realm to anything in real life, and the analogy isn’t exact, but in the Cognitive Realm things between planets are so condensed as to be very close to it. You’re right though, it’s not exactly the same as folding space, where there’s zero space in between.

And definitely a fair point on the Elend thing. That was the WoB I was thinking of but I hadn’t read it recently enough, that does sound like part of his physical form at least is entering the Spiritual Realm. I feel, though, that can’t be done simply for a physical person, that he may have partially entered it and glimpsed things from where he was, but that a) that’s a long way from entering it fully, and dropping back into the physical realm in another location, and B) that the amount of investiture required to get you fully into the Spiritual Realm would vaporize your body. Yeah Shards are in the Spiritual Realm but they don’t have a body any longer (sure, when the Vessel dies the body rematerializes but as a Shard, they have no body).

 

So I don’t really disagree with anything on a grand scale, and for sure my ideas about physical interaction with the Spiritual Realm are not fully formed or all that evidence-based. And I still am happy to be proven wrong, and find out that all instantaneous travel involves bypassing space via the Spiritual Realm. It just still feels a bit realmatically wrong to me.

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@Extesian yeah, I think we're almost on the same page. I think it's possible to physically enter the Spiritual Realm... But I don't think you'd want to. 

If it didn't outright consume your body (without the necessary protection of being a vessel) it would definitely break your mind. 

I think that to accomplish this form of traveling you'd need the entry and exit points to literally be on top of each other, so you traverse through the spiritual, but your never actually in it. 

The investiture requirement to achieve it would probably be prohibitively expensive. 

I just can't wrap my brain around teleportation being purely Cognitive, when we've seen the way the Cognitive Realm functions, and it requires travel. 

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@The One Who Connects Sorry. When I said I don't see time travel happening in the Cosmere, I meant the Dr. Who "Go back and fix the past" kind. And when we talk of time travel in Alloy of Law, I think he is talking about the two external temporal metals (Cadmium/Bendalloy).

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2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Extesian yeah, I think we're almost on the same page. I think it's possible to physically enter the Spiritual Realm... But I don't think you'd want to. 

If it didn't outright consume your body (without the necessary protection of being a vessel) it would definitely break your mind. 

I think that to accomplish this form of traveling you'd need the entry and exit points to literally be on top of each other, so you traverse through the spiritual, but your never actually in it. 

The investiture requirement to achieve it would probably be prohibitively expensive. 

I just can't wrap my brain around teleportation being purely Cognitive, when we've seen the way the Cognitive Realm functions, and it requires travel. 

Gotcha, that makes sense. It still feels realnatically wrong but then we're all like people trying to figure out Newtonian physics but have only been given 5 quotes from Principia. And given the mystery of how instantaneous travel can happen at all, it has sense :)

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16 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think that to accomplish this form of traveling you'd need the entry and exit points to literally be on top of each other, so you traverse through the spiritual, but your never actually in it. 

I think the location-independent nature of the Spiritual Realm makes it impossible for this to not be the case.

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On 7/13/2017 at 10:19 PM, Lord Maelstrom said:

I meant the Dr. Who "Go back and fix the past" kind.

Fair enough. Very good point about the Speed bubbles being the "time travel" we've seen in AoL. We've called them "speed" bubbles so often when they are actually "Time bubbles." Messes us up.

Also, in searching for a completely unrelated WoB, I uncovered yet another entry that screws with the time travel discussion.

Quote

Question

Can Shards travel backwards in time?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything is possible.

I actually have seen this one before, but it's been centuries and it faded from my mind.

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