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Top 10 theories going into Oathbringer

359 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, twentymonsters said:

Adolin is definitely going to be showing a dark side in this book. I'm almost positive that Sadeas' death will have major consequences for Dalinar. If other people try to grasp for power, they could easily blame Sadeas death on Dalinar. 

Because there is no evidence that Adolin is a Knights Radiant (that I'm aware of), I can almost assume that he may get envious of Shallan, Dalinar, and even Renarin. For once, he'll almost feel useless. All of the people around him are slowly becoming the heroes he'd always thought he was.

I'm almost positive that the guilt of possibly squandering Dalinar's reputation in this "new age" and his jealousy of people in the Knight's Radiant will lead him to do some erratic and unpredictable things. I'm honestly pumped and am excited to see how his relationship with Renarin, Shallan, and Dalinar change and evolve. 

A lot of people are pumped and excited for Adolin's future arc. I really hope Brandon won't disappoint and make it something enthralling and worth reading. My deepest fears are Adolin won't get enough focus and his story arc will happen in the background, thus being diluted among the other characters Brandon considers more important story arcs. Adolin's fall from grace and subsequent trials definitely deserves a strong focus arc.

 

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt some of these for several reasons. Jah Keved already has a king, first and foremost. It is Taravangian. I also doubt that Adolin will go to Azir. I think he will spend a big chunk of the book with his father, before maybe being exiled.

I also doubt that Renarin will be sent to the Purelake. Dalinar will want to keep him close and protect him. Renarin will most likely not have many, if any POVs, until the back five. 

Kaladin and Elhokar ending up in Kholinar is good though, and has a big chance of happening. 

Agree. Adolin is unlikely to go to Azir, he will likely stay close to either his father or Shallan or Kaladin. His story arc will be tied to one of the main protagonists, perhaps in alternation as this is the only way Brandon can give him some focus without jeopardizing with the main narrative he wants to tell. I expect Part 1 will deal with his downfall with his father. He may be absent from Part 2 following the climaxes of Part 1 for his character. I expect someone like Kaladin to ultimately be the one to give him the hands up he needs to stop falling, to avert the ground breaking hurting and to give him the incentive to start climbing back up, no matter how hard it is.

I don't think Adolin will be exiled.

Renarin is not going anywhere. Brandon confirmed he is not getting any viewpoint.

I don't really want to read a story arc where Elhokar becomes a great king and a great leader. Elhokar's characters, like Adolin, primarily exist to act as a foil to Dalinar. If Adolin is meant to show how unfair and hard Dalinar can be, even to those he loves the most in mirror to how hard he is towards himself, Elhokar is meant to show how lenient he can be when his guilt is implied. If Elhokar somewhat becomes a well-rounded king, then it brings no development to Dalinar, it makes his behavior acceptable and it never highlights the flaw he has. 

No. To offer growth, Elhokar can't suddenly morph into a great leader, he needs to plummet down and force Dalinar to realize just because he feels guilty towards his brother does not mean he should allow a weak king to destroy the kingdom. He can still love Elhokar and put him where he belongs. The opposite is bond to happen for Adolin, to have Dalinar learn he can love himself which means he can love Adolin too.

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1 minute ago, maxal said:

I don't really want to read a story arc where Elhokar becomes a great king and a great leader. Elhokar's characters, like Adolin, primarily exist to act as a foil to Dalinar. If Adolin is meant to show how unfair and hard Dalinar can be, even to those he loves the most in mirror to how hard he is towards himself, Elhokar is meant to show how lenient he can be when his guilt is implied. If Elhokar somewhat becomes a well-rounded king, then it brings no development to Dalinar, it makes his behavior acceptable and it never highlights the flaw he has. 

No. To offer growth, Elhokar can't suddenly morph into a great leader, he needs to plummet down and force Dalinar to realize just because he feels guilty towards his brother does not mean he should allow a weak king to destroy the kingdom. He can still love Elhokar and put him where he belongs. The opposite is bond to happen for Adolin, to have Dalinar learn he can love himself which means he can love Adolin too.

I know that you dn't want to see the Elhokar-becomes-a-great-king arc (I would be happy with both of the possible arcs in this case). However, what I meant is basically that Elhokar going to Kholinar snd learning from Kaladin is not (in my opinion) an unlikely plot-point, which I found most of the others to be. I would not be at all surprised to see Elhokar and Kaladin going to Kholinar.

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1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I know that you dn't want to see the Elhokar-becomes-a-great-king arc (I would be happy with both of the possible arcs in this case). However, what I meant is basically that Elhokar going to Kholinar snd learning from Kaladin is not (in my opinion) an unlikely plot-point, which I found most of the others to be. I would not be at all surprised to see Elhokar and Kaladin going to Kholinar.

I honestly don't think much of Elhokar as Kaladin's side-kick, I would much prefer if Brandon were to write Adolin/Kaladin scenes. Elhokar learning from Kaladin also implies a story arc centered around his character which may never happen. While Elhokar and Kaladin are likely to have inter-actions, while Elhokar's character will certainly "go somewhere", I do not envision any long-term story arc where Elhokar plays an active role within any of the main protagonists story arcs.

Technically, I agree it is not impossible, but narrative-wise, I think Brandon has more interesting pairings to work with.

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What I'd like most to see happen with Adolin is go to Kholinar. Has the perks of getting him away from Dalinar, which I think he sorely needs, and giving us a story of friendship (with Kaladin) instead of love (with Shallan), which in my opinion is much more interesting to read. Elhokar can be swept under the rug for all all I care.

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If Ehlokar is going to grow or learn I think it will be more of a side story and from others not from any of the main pov. Perhaps one or more of the bridgemen. Though I want to see them stay together as bridge 4, Kaladin has gone off without them, and I sent some still attaching themselves to the king, Dalinar and Adolin.

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1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

What I'd like most to see happen with Adolin is go to Kholinar. Has the perks of getting him away from Dalinar, which I think he sorely needs, and giving us a story of friendship (with Kaladin) instead of love (with Shallan), which in my opinion is much more interesting to read. 

I agree Adolin needs to be away from Dalinar in order to grow into his own man and Dalinar needs to have Adolin being taken away from him to realize his worth. And how much he actually loves him.

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Elhokar can be swept under the rug for all all I care.

:lol::lol::lol: You speak my mind :ph34r:

1 hour ago, FollowYourMuse said:

If Ehlokar is going to grow or learn I think it will be more of a side story and from others not from any of the main pov. Perhaps one or more of the bridgemen. Though I want to see them stay together as bridge 4, Kaladin has gone off without them, and I sent some still attaching themselves to the king, Dalinar and Adolin.

The problem with Elhokar is he remains a minor side character and as such, we ought to ask ourselves what purpose he has in the story? I say while his purpose in WoR was to force Kaladin to learn his third oath, his purpose in Oathbringer is likely to have Dalinar re-evaluate his relationships with his family. How can he be hard with Adolin when he has been so forgiving with Elhokar?

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I think that while Elhokar has a purpose as the guy who helps Dalinar and Kaladin grow as characters, he can still be his own man, and have an interesting development. There are a lot of interesting minor or side characters in both Brandons books and other stories, especially grand epics of this kind. And I consider Elhokar to be interesting, and worthy of development. I also think that Brandon can take him to interesting directions, wether it is making him more of an antagonist like maxal likes to propose, or developinh him in a more positive direction, or just doing something completely different. 

Also, Elhokar fills the position of king, something that one character needs to do. Until/unless the story requires someone else to sit on the throne, he will always have that purpose.

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52 minutes ago, maxal said:

I agree Adolin needs to be away from Dalinar in order to grow into his own man and Dalinar needs to have Adolin being taken away from him to realize his worth. And how much he actually loves him.

:lol::lol::lol: You speak my mind :ph34r:

The problem with Elhokar is he remains a minor side character and as such, we ought to ask ourselves what purpose he has in the story? I say while his purpose in WoR was to force Kaladin to learn his third oath, his purpose in Oathbringer is likely to have Dalinar re-evaluate his relationships with his family. How can he be hard with Adolin when he has been so forgiving with Elhokar?

I see your point here, I have just never bought into the Dalinar is too hard on Adolin. Dalinar already learned the lesson that he needed to hold others to standards, he also has treated Ehlokar as the child he is just don't see this as enough of a story arc.

Ehlokar needs to grow and I agree with @Toaster Retribution I think there are numerous options n that could be done. But I think it needs to be without Dalinar, as much as e complains of his uncle being right or saving things, he also relied on others to do the job.

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14 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I see your point here, I have just never bought into the Dalinar is too hard on Adolin. Dalinar already learned the lesson that he needed to hold others to standards, he also has treated Ehlokar as the child he is just don't see this as enough of a story arc.

Ehlokar needs to grow and I agree with @Toaster Retribution I think there are numerous options n that could be done. But I think it needs to be without Dalinar, as much as e complains of his uncle being right or saving things, he also relied on others to do the job.

It isn't an argument to be have, Brandon confirmed Dalinar was too hard on Adolin: he puts him up to impossible standards. He also confirmed Adolin was the child having gotten the least attention within his family.  As for Elhokar, Dalinar is too lenient with him, this will become more obvious in Oathbringer. In shorts, Dalinar is a man of extreme and when it comes to his children, he took two extreme positions: he is too hard on one and too lenient on the other (that includes Elhokar). His relationship with Adolin is... problematic. He projects a lot. His behavior towards Elhokar exists because he felt guilty over being jealous at Gavilar, this is actually featured in one of the flashback chapters. On the other hand, his behavior towards Adolin is because he can't forgive himself for the man he once was, hence he is hard, harsh even. He can't love Adolin as much as loves others because he can't love himself.

There is also much to be said about the son willing to sacrifice his life for the father willing to sacrifice his life for his nephew, but not the son having been so loyal to him.

Oathbringer spoiler

Spoiler

It may also be Dalinar has a hard time loving Adolin because he never loved his mother and he makes him think of her... just a speculation.

That's quite an interesting story arc, one which deals with non-static family relationships and the ending of WoR does promise a strong Dalinar/Adolin centrist arc.

The thing about Elhokar is it isn't him which needs to grow, but Dalinar. Readers keep on bringing back towards Elhokar, but he isn't the main protagonist here, he isn't even a secondary protagonist such as Adolin: he is a minor side character. The growth which matters here is Dalinar's, not Elhokar. Elhokar will get the development he needs to get in order for Dalinar to get the one he needs. There is no requirement for Elhokar to achieve anything, as a character just as there is no requirement for Navani to ever be more than Dalinar's concubine and an entry point towards how fabrial works. It does not mean it will happen as I say it will, but quite frankly, the only relevant Elhokar story arc I foresee is the one where Dalinar has to deal over how lenient he was. Let's not forget this is his book, he is the main guy here. He's the one which will get the most growth, so Elhokar's character arc will be tied to Dalinar's: it will not exist on its own.

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A little bit for clarity:

@Toaster Retribution

With "new king" I was talking about Taravangian, the actual 'new' king.

To Elhokar

It's his wife making a mess in Kholinar, so I think it's his plight to act. Overall I want to know their son.

On a sidenote

Question about Sanderson's opinion (Leipzig, book fair):

A.:

I think Elhokar is maligned by a lot of people. He was put in a hard situation, inheriting from a great king and having a really domineering uncle.

He's a little arrogant, a little full of himself, but that's natural in his position. And I'm very fond of him.

 

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@maxal

I think @FollowYourMuse has a point in Dalinar not being lenient with Elhokar all the time. We have the scene at the end of WoK when he kicks him around a bit and explains how wants stuff to get done.

Otherwise, I disagree with you on the fact that Elhokars development doesn't matter much. I think he is an interesting character, so in my opinion, it does. Of course, it might not be terribly important to the main narrative, but I still think that there is interesting stuff to explore. However, we have basically discussed this before, so I apologize if I retread old stuff which is already covered.

Also, congrats to 5,000 posts!

EDIT: @hypatia I haven't seen that WoB, upvote for that. 

Edited by Toaster Retribution
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13 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal

I think @FollowYourMuse has a point in Dalinar not being lenient with Elhokar all the time. We have the scene at the end of WoK when he kicks him around a bit and explains how wants stuff to get done.

True, but I felt it didn't pan into any worthwhile development. I haven't seen Dalinar changed his behavior afterwards, he even ranted on how much of a great, strong king Elhokar was to a dubious Navani.

14 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Otherwise, I disagree with you on the fact that Elhokars development doesn't matter much. I think he is an interesting character, so in my opinion, it does. Of course, it might not be terribly important to the main narrative, but I still think that there is interesting stuff to explore. However, we have basically discussed this before, so I apologize if I retread old stuff which is already covered.

Also, congrats to 5,000 posts!

EDIT: @hypatia I haven't seen that WoB, upvote for that. 

5000 already? Thanks :) 

I say Elhokar's character development matters as much as he matters to the main narrative: I do not see it as something required, but might happen because of circumstances. I am not big on Elhokar, I don't find tropes revolving around his character interesting within the context of SA, but this is just me. I hate whinny characters. 

I had seen the WoB. It does seem to sort of put a stick into the wheel of my evil Elhokar theory, but we'll see.

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1 hour ago, maxal said:
1 hour ago, FollowYourMuse said:

 

Ehlokar needs to grow and I agree with @Toaster Retribution I think there are numerous options n that could be done. But I think it needs to be without Dalinar, as much as e complains of his uncle being right or saving things, he also relied on others to do the job.

It isn't an argument to be have, Brandon confirmed Dalinar was too hard on Adolin: he puts him up to impossible standards. He also confirmed Adolin was the child having gotten the least attention within his family.  As for Elhokar, Dalinar is too lenient with him, this will become more obvious in Oathbringer. In shorts, Dalinar is a man of extreme and when it comes to his children, he took two extreme positions: he is too hard on one and too lenient on the other (that includes Elhokar). His relationship with Adolin is... problematic. He projects a lot. His behavior towards Elhokar exists because he felt guilty over being jealous at Gavilar, this is actually featured in one of the flashback chapters. On the other hand, his behavior towards Adolin is because he can't forgive himself for the man he once was, hence he is hard, harsh even. He can't love Adolin as much as loves others because he can't love himself.

@maxal thankI you... I was not aware of WoB on this, it's one thing I don't see even in multiple rereads. I agree he is too leniant on Ehlokar, and expects too little from Renarin. But don't see him as harsh or too hard on Adolin. The involved loving father is something more of current times. So this is something that I missed completely.

In addition, I would not expect a parent in a feudal, war and status driven culture to be any different. 

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1 hour ago, FollowYourMuse said:

@maxal thankI you... I was not aware of WoB on this, it's one thing I don't see even in multiple rereads. I agree he is too leniant on Ehlokar, and expects too little from Renarin. But don't see him as harsh or too hard on Adolin. The involved loving father is something more of current times. So this is something that I missed completely.

In addition, I would not expect a parent in a feudal, war and status driven culture to be any different. 

Dalinar's behavior is entirely different with Renarin than it is with Adolin. For instance, his interactions with Renarin, back in WoK, speaks of a concerned father willing to stampede on every one of his principles just to give his youngest son a Shardplate. He would have never done the same for Adolin. His internal monologue also is quite different when he thinks of Renarin as opposed to Adolin: with Renarin he speaks of how he relates to him and how he does not understand why Renarin isn't taking it out on Adolin while with Adolin he thinks of how he supposed he was a good son by listing things he appreciated, all weighted down with things he didn't appreciate. We never see him do the same for Renarin nor Elhokar: Elhokar gets the "he is a great and strong king" while Adolin gets the "his hotheadedness might end up being forgotten providing he learns to channel it constructively".

Also Dalinar is completely clueless on Adolin's life, he never bothered to pay interest to it, not until halfway into WoK.

Dalinar almost never praised Adolin except when he obeys him to the perfection. He never listens to him. Back in WoR, when Adolin tries to convince his father it is too dangerous for him to go meet Eshonai, Dalinar does not listen to Adolin, but he listens to Kaladin. He never asks what Adolin thinks, but he consults Kaladin whom he barely knows. He spent WoK not paying attention to Adolin and it caused their men to die.

All in all, what comes through all of it is Dalinar holds Adolin to an impossibly high standard: he is not allowed to make a mistake. It is clear within text he would let Renarin get away with some, but not Adolin.

Dalinar is everything but a loving father towards Adolin: if he loves him, he does not demonstrated much. Another example, the 4 on 1 duel where Dalinar sat back down and refused to endangered himself. Reverse the roles: Dalinar is trapped in the arena. Adolin would have jumped in to the cost of his personal life, worst Dalinar would expect him too, but how is it Dalinar is not willing to do the same? Why is it Adolin is willing to die for Dalinar, but Dalinar is only willing to die for Elhokar? How is it Adolin's life worth so little to Dalinar?

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I swear, the information "Elhokar has a son" seems to fall into a black hole in my brain, forgotten until the next time I read it, after which it soon falls into the black hole again. This may be because he does not behave like an adult, certainly not enough to be a father. 

Right now I'm about a quarter of my reread into WoK, and I'm paying particular attention to Dalinar's interactions. Interestingly enough, I think so far he is a bit hard on Adolin but not to absolute extremes. He is pushing Adolin to be his heir, to be a good leader, giving him command so he will be a good highprince when the time comes (which is what Gavilar should have done with Elhokar). Yes, he doesn't listen to Adolin enough, but neither does he completely ignore it, sometimes he is swayed by his words, or they make him realize he is going about something the wrong way. 

With Renarin he is much nicer and loving, but I'm not certain that is a good thing, Renarin certainly seems to feel how coddled he is, and it isn't really good for him. Dalinar actually seems rather distant with Renarin too, applying his feelings and projecting how he would feel in his circumstances. Mainly he just seems to favor Renarin due to been the second son, not so much because of his disability. Up till this point it is nothing too unusual for those kind of times. Not a stellar father for either child but not bad either.

The real problem is how he is with Elhokar. That's what skews everything out of perspective. He is completely, utterly blind to Elhokar's faults, he lets him do whatever he wants, he coddles him worse than a 5 year old, all the while letting Elhokar treat him however he wants, without even demanding the basic respect of a nephew for his uncle, or of a king for a highprince. He gives everything to Elhokar, even what should rightfully belong to his sons, his princedom, all the shards he gets, his attention, etc, etc. He doesn't even upbraid him when Elhokar shames or disrespects house Kholinar without a second thought. 

It is when you compare how he behaves with Elhokar, and how he behaves with his sons that you start seeing the disparities and problems. And Adolin is the one worst off as he is a bit harder on him. But in a way he takes more from Renarin, as Adolin has some basic things that belong to him due to been the firstborn. Except of course his attention :P. I think the reason why Adolin and Renarin are so close is probably because they always had a distant father, first off been the Blackthorn, then doting over his nephew and giving him everything that should have been theirs. 

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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Great summary @WhiteLeeopard!

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I swear, the information "Elhokar has a son" seems to fall into a black hole in my brain, forgotten until the next time I read it, after which it soon falls into the black hole again. This may be because he does not behave like an adult, certainly not enough to be a father. 

Elhokar is several years older than Adolin, nearing on his thirties while Adolin is still within his young twenties. There is a passage, in WoK, where Elhokar looks down on Adolin seemingly wondering why he saw fit to move into the close king's counsel, as if he still considered him too young to be there. Apart from this passage, I never noted any ill-feeling coming from Elhokar towards his younger cousins. He seems to respect Adolin's dueling ability, proud even. He however has demonstrated if he did care about his cousins, this care ends when higher political needs are at hand: he's the one who argued Shards were worth more than Adolin's life during the 4 on 1 duel.

This being said, I don't think Elhokar behaves like a child: he does not behave like a leader, like a king, but he isn't a child. The chasmfiend encounter and Elhokar idiotic stand demanding a combat to a dangerous creature does seem to point out the fact Elhokar just never had the opportunity to show his worth. He did not win his Shards: they were given to him. He presumable never been to battle: too valuable as a king. Maybe he wanted to be a duelist too, but was prevented from it because nobody would dare fight the crowned prince of Alethkar. There are a lot of "maybes" with Elhokar.

And yeah, he does have a son, but he seems an even more incompetent father than Dalinar as he does not seem to care the child is far away. At least, we know Dalinar didn't allow the boys to be away from him: he took them out with him wherever he went. Adolin spent his childhood trailing after his father (we can assume Renarin too), so at least there is that. Despite his flaws, Dalinar kept a close eye on his kiddies. Sadeas's comment, during the 4 on 1 duel, saying how the Dalinar of old would have jumped in the arena with a rock if need be does tell us one thing: the Blackthorn probably was very protective of his little ones. The Blackthorn would not care about the political game: if his kid was ever in danger, he'd do something about it, immediately. I thought the comment was meant to show us how Dalinar has changed from war lord to politician and when he made the change, his son's life somehow become something he could use to buy leverage.

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Right now I'm about a quarter of my reread into WoK, and I'm paying particular attention to Dalinar's interactions. Interestingly enough, I think so far he is a bit hard on Adolin but not to absolute extremes. He is pushing Adolin to be his heir, to be a good leader, giving him command so he will be a good highprince when the time comes (which is what Gavilar should have done with Elhokar). Yes, he doesn't listen to Adolin enough, but neither does he completely ignore it, sometimes he is swayed by his words, or they make him realize he is going about something the wrong way. 

Dalinar's behavior with Adolin si worth noting because it is different than his behavior with both Renarin and Elhokar: had he act the same with all three, we could just conclude this is how he is, but we know it is only a partial truth. When I argue Dalinar is hard on Adolin, I am arguing over how little freedom and consideration he is giving him. At quarter into WoK, it isn't so apparent, I felt it become more obvious when we add Kaladin into the mix. Why is he softer, fatherly even, with Kaladin? Why does he listen more readily to Kaladin's counsel than he does Adolin? While it is true Dalinar does not ignore Adolin, though he did ignore Adolin's pleas to talk about the visions up until Adolin just burst out in public, he does not respect his input as much as he should. He respects inputs from other people more than he does Adolin. Yes, a lot is about Dalinar wanting Adolin to be a good Highprince, this is the good part. How Dalinar brought Adolin into command is great, ideal even. What bothers me is the fact Dalinar never seems to be able to treat Adolin as a son, always as a soldier. I get it, Adolin is a soldier, but him being Dalinar's on ought to be valued more. 

Moreover, where I think it goes towards the worst is WoR where Dalinar puts additional pressure onto Adolin and just adds to it. He ignores the signs Adolin is getting too stressed out and when he is about to die, he basically gave Adolin the task to succeed where he has failed, claiming he is the better man. Talk about high expectations and then we wonder why Adolin blew up in the end. It was just too much and part of this too much came from Dalinar, inadvertently.

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

With Renarin he is much nicer and loving, but I'm not certain that is a good thing, Renarin certainly seems to feel how coddled he is, and it isn't really good for him. Dalinar actually seems rather distant with Renarin too, applying his feelings and projecting how he would feel in his circumstances. Mainly he just seems to favor Renarin due to been the second son, not so much because of his disability. Up till this point it is nothing too unusual for those kind of times. Not a stellar father for either child but not bad either.

Dalinar projects a lot, so yes him preferring Renarin seems directly linked to him being the second child. What has bothered me with the scene you are referencing is how Dalinar agrees to give Shards to Renarin, despite having clamor Shards have to go to the most worthy warrior. For Renarin however, he will make an exception. In itself, it isn't so bad, what makes it worst is the fact it happens because Renarin threatens to kill himself if he doesn't, that and the fact he would not have done the same for Adolin. This exchange has always made me think of Renarin as the spoiled child: he asks for the most expensive, precious artifact within his world, objects having caused war, just because if he cannot try to be a soldier, then he might as well end his life. Some think it is sad, I thought Renarin was manipulating his father. I grew up with a sibling who always threatened to kill herself if she didn't get what she wants, so when Renarin does it, sorry I have no pity, but I ultimately blame Dalinar for falling into the trap.

I do agree Dalinar has coddled Renarin way too much: giving him menial tasks (carrying messages) befitting a much younger boy. He did not seem to have try finding him a role to play within their household except by encouraging him to become an Ardent. He never asked for Renarin to work for his keep, he raised him thinking he can't surmount difficulties, so each time Renarin is faced with one, he gives up.

The problem is when seen from Adolin's perspective, it does seem as if Dalinar loves Renarin the most while from Renarin's perspective, it does seem as if Dalinar thought only Adolin was good at something. Dalinar is not a disastrous father, but the two extremes he has used for his sons just didn't give the best of result. Renarin would have benefit from a stricter upbringing so he could gain self-worth despite his disability while the hard line Dalinar uses for Adolin perhaps does wonder with certain kids, but it is very dangerous to use on eager to please children such as Adolin. It ties affection to accomplishment: sooner or later, those kids blew up the steam, one way or another and this is exactly what we have seen with Adolin's character. 

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The real problem is how he is with Elhokar. That's what skews everything out of perspective. He is completely, utterly blind to Elhokar's faults, he lets him do whatever he wants, he coddles him worse than a 5 year old, all the while letting Elhokar treat him however he wants, without even demanding the basic respect of a nephew for his uncle, or of a king for a highprince. He gives everything to Elhokar, even what should rightfully belong to his sons, his princedom, all the shards he gets, his attention, etc, etc. He doesn't even upbraid him when Elhokar shames or disrespects house Kholinar without a second thought. 

It is when you compare how he behaves with Elhokar, and how he behaves with his sons that you start seeing the disparities and problems. And Adolin is the one worst off as he is a bit harder on him. But in a way he takes more from Renarin, as Adolin has some basic things that belong to him due to been the firstborn. Except of course his attention :P. I think the reason why Adolin and Renarin are so close is probably because they always had a distant father, first off been the Blackthorn, then doting over his nephew and giving him everything that should have been theirs. 

I agree Elhokar is where is starts to get more problematic, The cleavage in between Dalinar/Adolin and Dalinar/Elhokar is gigantic and if I were Adolin, seeing my father unable to forgive me for Sadeas after seeing him forgave everything to Elhokar would be a serious hurtful blow. There are times in life where, no matter how old you are, you expect your parents to take up your side: seeing them never being willing to do so can hurt, badly. 

Oathbringer spoilers

Spoiler

After winning Oathbringer, Dalinar wins another full set of Shards. He promptly give it to young Elhokar because he feels too guilty over being jealous of Gavilar. When Gavilar points out Dalinar should keep the Shards to give them to his firstborn son, Dalinar refuses, saying he prefers to give them to his nephew. The Shards Elhokar has, they should have gone to Adolin, but they didn't. Dalinar should have had a Plate for Renarin, mother's Plate, had he not give away the Shards he has won. Mind, neither boys were born yet, but still. I took it as where the unhealthy relationship Dalinar has with Elhokar started at this very moment.

Hence, Dalinar took away from both boys, but Renarin, at least, he gave him love which is untied to any achievement he might have. That's what Adolin has never gotten and I think it may be why he can't form up relationships as an adult. I mean, why does Adolin fear them so much? Brandon he feared not being good enough, but why? Why indeed if not for him growing up thinking his worth was directly proportional to his ability to please?

I don't think Dalinar was a distant father... A while ago, I thought he probably was an absent father, as he went warring a lot, but recent information has it this isn't true. Dalinar took the kiddies with him to the warcamps: he was present. He did raise them himself. I doubt neither Adolin nor Renarin had a Parshendis wet nurse. My thoughts are the boys are close one to another because they were their playmates. If Adolin grew up jealous of Reanrin, he also grew up protective: it is highly plausible both kids spent a lot of time together. We see how bad Adolin is at making real friends and we know he was put up to training at the age of 6, years younger than the other kids, it may after he was done training with older bigger kids, he preferred going back to his younger brother.

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I think Wit will tell another story. This time to Renarin. Because obligatory story telling. 

Also he will get his flute and bash Kaladin on the head with it, for losing it 

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1 hour ago, Flash said:

I think Wit will tell another story. This time to Renarin. Because obligatory story telling. 

Also he will get his flute and bash Kaladin on the head with it, for losing it 

The first would be great! To the second let me just point out that Kaladin is not a blind man.

Edited by Nathrangking
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All the Radiants will head out to Pure Lake to search for the mythical Wish Fish.  Once found they will debate how to phrase the request correctly to stop the desolation without any adverse consequences.   While they are debating..Lift eats it and becomes Super Awesome for a bit...then the Unmade kick their buts bc this is the middle story of the arc and we all know it has to be like The Empire Strike Back.

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On 12.8.2017 at 6:05 PM, Fatling said:

Sorry I'm cutting out most of your stuff out of the quote boxes to avoid mile lomg posts. So this discussion of background characters is making me think about Hoid. So far our exposure to him has been him popping up, making witty or mysterious remarks, or maybe doing something weird, and then disappearing again. I feel like writing Hoid as a major viewpoint character (will he be one in Oathbringer? Do we know? I know he will be in later books) could pose a considerable challenge, because he has to have some depth to him, but at the same time he has to be presented in a way that will let Brandon unfold all the mysteries of the cosmere little by little, even though Hoid knows so much. As a major viewpoint character he won't be able to just pop up and then disappear again. He'll have move beyond just being witty and mysterious all the time. Of course I'm sure the great wizard Brandon will amaze us once again, but how?

Sorry for jumping in an quoting a rather old post, but I'm ever so slightly drunk and binge reading. So.

Anyway. I disagree about using Hoid as an comparison to Lopen and Minons etc. He has his very funny and quirky moments, yes, but Hoid is not a comic relief character. In my personal opinion, Hoid might be one of the most brilliant characters Brandon has written as of tWoK and beyond (he really only had small and insignificant cameos before, nothing to write home about). He reads like a character who puts up a very witty and funny front, but you don't have to dig deep before you understand that it is exactly that - a front.

Though we will likely not see any real PoV chapter from him just yet (the epilogues of Stormlight Archive don't really count), I think Hoid will work really well when we finally get proper PoV chapters from him. Even in the few chapters he has more of a role than just a cameo, he already reads as more than just comic relief. He has a real personality that goes beyond the front he puts up. The way he is written hints towards more than just a person in the know, but also a fully fleshed out character. A character to a much greater extent than Lopen or Rock or Minons.

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The stick becomes a surgebinder :ph34r:

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I think Taravangian will take power in Alethkar by the end of the book.

 

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A bit over 2 months guys!! I dont suppose anyone can lend me a cadmium fuled allomantic grenade? No..?

 Sigh..

Ok im usually way off base with my theories but that could be something to do with prophesising is evil maybe.. ill warn you some of this may be a tad silly, ill leave it up to you guys to decide ;)

1 - we find out hoid bonded stick!!

2 - Jasna unleashes on a voidish army and becomes the whitethorn saving a city whilst hoid sits on the wall playing with sand calling out critiques.

2.5 - jasna takes a breather next to hoid demanding he helps to which he states he obviously is.. turns out his "sand playing" saved jasna a few times.

2.75 - hoid reslises at the end of the book that these odius monsters arent people and hes "allowed" to hurt them!!

3 - the stoneshamens make an epic appearence making them appear a bit OP.

3.5 - szeth takes on the stoneshamens and unsheaths Nightblood, the battle is epically short..

3.75 - Nightblood consumes an honorblade or two

4 - szeth and kaladin buddy up and szeth teaches Kal about his surges

4.5 - szeth becomes a squire allowing him to store stormlight.. which sounds usufull B)

5 - at the end of the book we see an impossibly large void army moving towards something special

6 - at the end of the book someine finds a cache of 100s of shards (all those missing ones)

7 - kal progresses again and syl can become more physica

7.5 - syl kisses kal

8 - adolin goes a downward spiral and drinks purple wine!!

8.5 - rennarian knows what adolin did kast summer (sadias) amd is conflictingly proud / dissapointed

8.75 - adolin gets exiled and meets up with kal telling him about sadias.

9 - the storm wardens, a couple of heralds and szeth make a dramatic entrance to urithuru via a locked oathgate

10 - we finally meet the night watcher, probably a flashback or interlude.. its a very small scene and is talked about for years.

Ok..

I need to go sit down for a bit. May the shards be with you!

!~ HIF ~!

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1 hour ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

8 - adolin goes a downward spiral and drinks purple wine!!

:lol::lol::lol: Worst, is I am dying to read drunk Adolin :ph34r:, but I think your prediction is not accurate. You should have written:

Adolin goes a downward spiral, he puts on fashionable clothes instead of his uniform, and drinks purple wine.

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1 hour ago, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

A bit over 2 months guys!! I dont suppose anyone can lend me a cadmium fuled allomantic grenade? No..?

 Sigh..

Ok im usually way off base with my theories but that could be something to do with prophesising is evil maybe.. ill warn you some of this may be a tad silly, ill leave it up to you guys to decide ;)

1 - we find out hoid bonded stick!!

2 - Jasna unleashes on a voidish army and becomes the whitethorn saving a city whilst hoid sits on the wall playing with sand calling out critiques.

2.5 - jasna takes a breather next to hoid demanding he helps to which he states he obviously is.. turns out his "sand playing" saved jasna a few times.

2.75 - hoid reslises at the end of the book that these odius monsters arent people and hes "allowed" to hurt them!!

3 - the stoneshamens make an epic appearence making them appear a bit OP.

3.5 - szeth takes on the stoneshamens and unsheaths Nightblood, the battle is epically short..

3.75 - Nightblood consumes an honorblade or two

4 - szeth and kaladin buddy up and szeth teaches Kal about his surges

4.5 - szeth becomes a squire allowing him to store stormlight.. which sounds usufull B)

5 - at the end of the book we see an impossibly large void army moving towards something special

6 - at the end of the book someine finds a cache of 100s of shards (all those missing ones)

7 - kal progresses again and syl can become more physica

7.5 - syl kisses kal

8 - adolin goes a downward spiral and drinks purple wine!!

8.5 - rennarian knows what adolin did kast summer (sadias) amd is conflictingly proud / dissapointed

8.75 - adolin gets exiled and meets up with kal telling him about sadias.

9 - the storm wardens, a couple of heralds and szeth make a dramatic entrance to urithuru via a locked oathgate

10 - we finally meet the night watcher, probably a flashback or interlude.. its a very small scene and is talked about for years.

Ok..

I need to go sit down for a bit. May the shards be with you!

!~ HIF ~!

So many epic theories the continuation of one though is that Hoid pokes taravangian in the back of the head with his new weapon!!!

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