Will the Survivor ever die?

[Toaster Retribution]

Kelsiers story has a heavy theme of life and death, and surviving, specifically. First, he lives trough the Pits of Hathsin against all odds, and then he sacrifices himself as a martyr in order to found a religion and bring down the Lord Ruler. However, Kelsier survives death, and has now returned to PR. So my question is, how do you guys think his story will continue, considering his theme of surviving. Will he finally die, or be one of those who survives the Cosmere story?

[+Extesian]

This, from three Ad Astra signing (I can't remember who asked and posted this, my apologies to them), gets you closer!

Quote

I asked him what metals were involved in resurrecting Kelsier, which he said he couldn't answer, because he was saving that for Secret History 2, so I instead asked him if Kelsier would play a big part in the fourth book of Era 2, and he said he'd have a cameo. But then, he said that he would play a big part in the modern day trilogy.

 

[Oversleep]

You know, the big problem with Kelsier being now both a Fullborn and Sliver is that he is way too powerful for his PoV to be interesting. Which is a shame since I liked his PoV.

[Toaster Retribution]

18 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

You know, the big problem with Kelsier being now both a Fullborn and Sliver is that he is way too powerful for his PoV to be interesting. Which is a shame since I liked his PoV.

I would disagree with this. Powerful people can have very interesting POVs. For example, being in Rasheks head would be very interesting, as we could see his fight with Ruin, how he felt about the empire he made, and onwards. Kelsier can be equally interesting, as long as he has conflict.

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I would disagree with this. Powerful people can have very interesting POVs. For example, being in Rasheks head would be very interesting, as we could see his fight with Ruin, how he felt about the empire he made, and onwards. Kelsier can be equally interesting, as long as he has conflict.

But that's it: Rashek had a bigger threat to worry about and his inner thoughts (which would be without doubt interesting).

Unless Kelsier has some otherworldy stuff at his hands (like a hostile Shard or running his own worldhopper organization) he could remake Scadrial with his own two hands. A Fullborn is a Physical God, save for Shards it's the most power we have seen one man to have.

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

But that's it: Rashek had a bigger threat to worry about and his inner thoughts (which would be without doubt interesting).

Unless Kelsier has some otherworldy stuff at his hands (like a hostile Shard or running his own worldhopper organization) he could remake Scadrial with his own two hands. A Fullborn is a Physical God, save for Shards it's the most power we have seen one man to have.

He still has a bunch of things to learn. Love, for one, as Vin told him in SH. He can also deal with the fact that "nobles" still have greater power over the people, despite all he did during the Final Empire. The fact that he played around at being a god can also be something for him to deal with. Or, as you said, the protection of Scadrial against outside forces. Kelsier still has development to go through, and that would make his thoughts interesting to follow as well. There are a lot of possibilities for him to be an interesting POV. And also, Kelsiers internal dialouge adds to the entertainment.

[WhiteLeeopard]

I'm a bit uncomfortable at the thought of Kelsier having a large part to play in the modern era, unless he plays it from the shadows. Kelsier is without a doubt my favorite literary character ever written, and part of it are his infinite flaws. But at the same time, he is now considered the ultimate god by the majority of Scadrial, and gods aren't really meant to completely intervene in events, just nudge them, otherwise people would lose their illusions about them. He has been made into a larger than life figure, despite everyone knowing the details of his past, which is why I'm not too convinced of what it would do to Scadrial if he showed himself to any more than a small trustworthy group. And same goes for Marsh and Spook if he is around. 

And of course, as Oversleep said, he is now so mega powerful and has a decent chunk of knowledge, that there are few groups/people that can hope to pose a threat to him. Final problem is, I'm not the only one that loves Kelsier, he appeared for half a page in BoM and has had more discussion than the rest of the book put together. Give him a large part to play and no-one will notice the new characters . Yet at the same time I'm a bit conflicted pointing this out, as I could read Kelsier adventures forever and be happy . 

Going back to a previous point, I agree he could change Scadrial whichever way he wanted, although he could probably do so with his religious weight alone. However I don't see why he would want to. Yes, nobles still have more power than he would have liked them to, but compared to the final empire, current Scadrial will seem a paradise to him. No ash, no slaves, no people killed on whims. At the end of the day, he will probably always use the final empire as a base line, as it was his original time and place. In any case, the basin seems to be on the verge of a new revolution, which will likely give more rights to all including border cities. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis]

In the Final Empire, circumstances lead to Kelsier being a heroic figure that the people needed. 

In the modern Era? His personality lends itself for more to that of an anti-hero or outright villain. 

I think that Kelsier knows this and wants to be a good man. I think his entire interaction with the southerners was not only an attempt to help them survive, but to put him in a situation where he is responsible to and for a group of people. 

If he has the full power of a Fullborn, without the constraints of self imposed limitation through that responsibility, his personality would take him to some pretty dark places. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

In the Final Empire, circumstances lead to Kelsier being a heroic figure that the people needed. 

In the modern Era? His personality lends itself for more to that of an anti-hero or outright villain. 

I think that Kelsier knows this and wants to be a good man. I think his entire interaction with the southerners was not only an attempt to help them survive, but to put him in a situation where he is responsible to and for a group of people. 

If he has the full power of a Fullborn, without the constraints of self imposed limitation through that responsibility, his personality would take him to some pretty dark places. 

That's also why I am dreading seeing him in the future. It is too hard to watch your heroes fall. Specially favorite-by-cicumstances hero ever. If its an inner struggle it would still be better on the shadows.

[Nathrangking]

I would not be be surprised if he survived beyond the run of the cosmere stories though it would be more powerful for him as a character to have him finally go out as a hero who realizes that he has done all that he can and that now he leaves the world in the hands of those who are capable. Besides eventually he I think he will earn the the right to move on in peace and to paraphrase Vin "He will learn to love".

[Kingsdaughter613]

Kell seems to view the Beyond as nothingness though, and he's not the sort to commit suicide. He's already proven himself willing to die for a cause he believes in and for people he loves. So he may yet be forced Beyond due to one or the other.

I suspect Kelsier left Scadrial to learn about other Shards. He can focus himself on them as 'enemies'. And he does control his nastier aspects rather well. He wants to be good, knows he isn't, and still tries anyway which is actually rather noble. There are not many characters like that.

His journey to being a hero may not be complete, but I think future stories will lead to him becoming one. Especially since Brandon mentions that Kelsier's journey being incomplete is a big part of why the Survivor had to be brought back.

Aside from the above, Kell is primarily a Guil Hero. I wouldn't be surprised to have him originally appear to be someone else, and thus be limited by that persona. And I'm certain he has limitations or consequences caused by his return that we are simply unaware of. On top of which, he may spend a great deal of time off page, just as he did in TFE. Either way, I can't wait to find out! ...but I have to... sigh... (Desperately wishes for a time machine.)

[WhiteLeeopard]

Personally I'd be happy to always have him around. After all, the world could do a lot worse than having someone who cares for the people, even if not always for the right reasons, to keep an eye out and protect them from some of the worst elements that can rear their head. He is not, and I doubt he will ever be a shining white hero, but those are boring anway and are often very limited by their codes. Maybe he will die some day, but his journey would have to be completed, and I feel it will take a very long time for that to happen, if it ever does. Even if the Beyond is a happy, peaceful place, he is not the person to be happy doing nothing other than basking in "heaven", but rather someone that always is most alive when doing something, the bigger the scope the better.

[Landis963]

6 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Personally I'd be happy to always have him around. After all, the world could do a lot worse than having someone who cares for the people, even if not always for the right reasons, to keep an eye out and protect them from some of the worst elements that can rear their head. He is not, and I doubt he will ever be a shining white hero, but those are boring anway and are often very limited by their codes. Maybe he will die some day, but his journey would have to be completed, and I feel it will take a very long time for that to happen, if it ever does. Even if the Beyond is a happy, peaceful place, he is not the person to be happy doing nothing other than basking in "heaven", but rather someone that always is most alive when doing something, the bigger the scope the better.

If, as I suspect, The Beyond is like the Spiritual Realm, then he'll be doing anything and everything except "basking."  Of course, none of those things will matter to the living, but if Kell ever decides to go Beyond, then he no longer cares about the living.  

[Oversleep]

Beyond is beyond cosmere. I heavily doubt we will ever get to know more about Beyond.

[Jondesu]

On 7/27/2017 at 10:58 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell seems to view the Beyond as nothingness though, and he's not the sort to commit suicide.

Umm, that's kinda exactly what he did.  Sure, he hoped he would instead be able to kill TLR, but he essentially committed suicide.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Umm, that's kinda exactly what he did.  Sure, he hoped he would instead be able to kill TLR, but he essentially committed suicide.

I probably should have been clearer. Kell is willing to die for a cause, but prefers not to. I consider this different than suicide, where death is part of the objective.

Kell’s purpose was not to die; he wanted to live. Plan A was to live. But he was already living on borrowed time. If he didn’t die today, he would eventually so long as TFE stood. Plan B accepted that reality, and sought to make best use of the inevitable. If Kell couldn’t kill TLR, at least he would bring down the society that would have killed him anyway.

But if he could survive, he would.

Kell is willing to die for a greater purpose. But he would rather avoid doing so. When he gave Preservation to Vin he knew Ruin was going to kill him. He still did it. He was willing to sacrifice his existence for the world. That doesn’t make him suicidal.

Generally speaking, if a soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades we don’t call it suicide. It’s usually referred to as ‘heroic sacrifice.’ If a man is cornered by enemies, knows he will be killed eventually, so decides to go out with a bang - possibly saving or inspiring others in the process - we call it a desperation gambit. 

Basically, Kell is not one to commit suicide. That does not preclude his being willing to die for a greater purpose. But he’d prefer to survive, which is the most important factor stopping him from going to the Beyond willingly.

[Jondesu]

54 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I probably should have been clearer. Kell is willing to die for a cause, but prefers not to. I consider this different than suicide, where death is part of the objective.

Kell’s purpose was not to die; he wanted to live. Plan A was to live. But he was already living on borrowed time. If he didn’t die today, he would eventually so long as TFE stood. Plan B accepted that reality, and sought to make best use of the inevitable. If Kell couldn’t kill TLR, at least he would bring down the society that would have killed him anyway.

But if he could survive, he would.

Kell is willing to die for a greater purpose. But he would rather avoid doing so. When he gave Preservation to Vin he knew Ruin was going to kill him. He still did it. He was willing to sacrifice his existence for the world. That doesn’t make him suicidal.

Generally speaking, if a soldier throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades we don’t call it suicide. It’s usually referred to as ‘heroic sacrifice.’ If a man is cornered by enemies, knows he will be killed eventually, so decides to go out with a bang - possibly saving or inspiring others in the process - we call it a desperation gambit. 

Basically, Kell is not one to commit suicide. That does not preclude his being willing to die for a greater purpose. But he’d prefer to survive, which is the most important factor stopping him from going to the Beyond willingly.

That’s a very good point, well said.

[shadowwisp]

He can die after he punches every single living (maybe even shattered) Shard in the Cosmere AND has his rematch with Hoid on an equal or greater terms.

Edited October 31, 2017 by shadowwisp