[OB] on gavilar confirmed son of honor

[king of nowhere]

oh, and regarding the adolin duel scene: the difference between dalinar jumping in and someone else jumping in is that they would have done their best to kill dalinar, and with the advantage of plate, they would have done it - they could just rush him, taking a few blows, and dalinar would have had no defence. while they would have probably tried to avoid killing someone popular like amaram.

but yeah, I agree that it was selfish of dalinar to be angry at others for not jumping to help his son. and while dalinar is correct in treating his son as any other soldier for the purpose of war operations - to do otherwise would be nepotism - he is way too cold towards him, even in private.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I think if dalinar had lost lots of troops and there was no hope of victory anymore and retreating had been an option, I am sure dalinar would have retreated

This is the problem, I do not know if he would and based on what I have read so far, I fear he wouldn't have retreated. Of course, I agree it hasn't happened, yet, but what I have read so far depicted a man who would have seen every one of his men dead before he sounds retreat for a victory which may not be decisive. This is also part of argumentation, Dalinar doesn't know which victory is more important that which victory: any man willing to see his soldiers die to a man, I personally fear.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Or the simple explanation that he had no intention of being diplomatic, and was merely boasting over what he saw as a successfully executed plan. 

He was a villain monologing.

These are my thoughts as well. I never liked Gavilar, even before I read this prologue: I always felt something was off with him. Every single chapter I have read from Oathbringer seems to have cemented my thoughts.

[vikorr]

Going back to the original post - Since the end of Words of Radiance, I always thought it obvious that Gavilar wanted to bring on a desolation for religious reasons.

[Rasha]

I think you are a bit harsh with Dalinar, Maxal.  The guy knows that the end of the world is coming, but he does not know when, where or how. You can not expect him to save all of his men when he does not know if he will survive the present battle. 

You say you want passion above reason, but passion may tell him to throw all of his men's live under the bus because he feels it is worth it, whereas reason may tell him to be more careful with the few resources he has. 

 

[maxal]

32 minutes ago, Rasha said:

I think you are a bit harsh with Dalinar, Maxal.  The guy knows that the end of the world is coming, but he does not know when, where or how. You can not expect him to save all of his men when he does not know if he will survive the present battle. 

You say you want passion above reason, but passion may tell him to throw all of his men's live under the bus because he feels it is worth it, whereas reason may tell him to be more careful with the few resources he has. 

My point is I personally feat the man who does not have a price, a man who can watch his son die to gain a political advantage, no matter how meaningful.  I fear the gambles Dalinar is ready to make. It isn't so much putting passion over reason, it is thinking he might be willing to waste his family's life over petty politics or sacrifice his entire army to a man before admitting defeat. That's my problem: I have never seen Dalinar admit defeat, not in battle. I have to see he can.

[king of nowhere]

15 hours ago, maxal said:

 I have never seen Dalinar admit defeat, not in battle. I have to see he can.

does the battle at the tower counts?

Also, he'd been warring on the shattered plains for five years, I bet he called his fair number of retreats. he can't have a reputation as a good general if he never did.

[Kira0147]

For all the jealousy for his brother, Dalinar turned out to be the better man.

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, Kira0147 said:

For all the jealousy for his brother, Dalinar turned out to be the better man.

I doubt he believes that. 

[Kira0147]

I agree @Calderis , but maybe Dalinar will discover what his "better"  brother was up to

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Kira0147 said:

I agree @Calderis , but maybe Dalinar will discover what his "better"  brother was up to

I don't think the word "maybe" belongs in that sentence. 

Between Amaram and the Sons of Honor, and Taravangian, Gavilar's motives and methods will come to light. 

[maxal]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

does the battle at the tower counts?

Also, he'd been warring on the shattered plains for five years, I bet he called his fair number of retreats. he can't have a reputation as a good general if he never did.

Truth is, I had thought of the battle at the tower, but then again, Dalinar had no option. Once the betrayal was found, winning became pointless. I sincerely wonder how he would behave within a battle he feels he needs to win, but is somewhat losing. It may be it won't play out as I think and perhaps I am selling Dalinar short here... either way I am keen to find out.

[ParadoxicalZen]

A bit late to the party but my two pennies. Bear in mind, the Shards themselves encompass everything about their trait represents, its the Cognitive perception that shapes and defines exactly what is considered "Honourable/Odious/insertotherexampleShardhere, therefore judging a Shard alone by a moral compass is a futile exercise due to being primordial actions/states of life. So it primarily falls to the Vessel's own ethics and moral compass which, depending on the Vessel, can vary wildly (after all, whilst there may be some unanimous agreement on what is 'right/wrong' amongst ourselves as the audience, in-world is a completely different culture and people faced with completely different circumstances, not to mention on the areas where we ourselves disagree). To judge whether Gavilar's actions are 'Honourable' or otherwise we would need the full story/reasoning/more background information about the Sons of Honour, whereas this chapter really provides a more detailed snapshot that we previously had.

More on topic, I would disagree about Amaram's redemption, but I could see him making a sacrifice.

 

[king of nowhere]

I can't wait to see Dalinar's interactions with shshshsh. I see that the new dalinar, while at first glance having nothing in common with the old, is really just a refurbished version of himself, with new, more noble goals than the thrill and glory of the battle and with some new skills at politics he had to learn for his new trade. I consider that maybe he's hard on his son simply because the warlord dalinar has no knowledge on how to deal with a loved one, but then I remember he had a wife who clearly meant a lot to him. I still think that his interaction with his wife, and especially the way he dealt with her loss, is a very important piece we're missing on his relationship with adolin.

[Calderis]

57 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I can't wait to see Dalinar's interactions with shshshsh. I see that the new dalinar, while at first glance having nothing in common with the old, is really just a refurbished version of himself, with new, more noble goals than the thrill and glory of the battle and with some new skills at politics he had to learn for his new trade. I consider that maybe he's hard on his son simply because the warlord dalinar has no knowledge on how to deal with a loved one, but then I remember he had a wife who clearly meant a lot to him. I still think that his interaction with his wife, and especially the way he dealt with her loss, is a very important piece we're missing on his relationship with adolin.

I'm actually very curious if they had a relationship prior to his wife's death. 

I feel like Dalinar the warlord was the type to be away fighting more than at home. 

[king of nowhere]

47 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm actually very curious if they had a relationship prior to his wife's death. 

I feel like Dalinar the warlord was the type to be away fighting more than at home. 

that's a possibility. he loved her, but he never felt really comfortable about loving someone, and when she died it crushed him that he never dedicated himself to her as he would have wanted; hence his trip to the nightwatcher, and hence his inability to properly deal with adolin. it's not, however, the only possibility

[maxal]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I can't wait to see Dalinar's interactions with shshshsh. I see that the new dalinar, while at first glance having nothing in common with the old, is really just a refurbished version of himself, with new, more noble goals than the thrill and glory of the battle and with some new skills at politics he had to learn for his new trade. I consider that maybe he's hard on his son simply because the warlord dalinar has no knowledge on how to deal with a loved one, but then I remember he had a wife who clearly meant a lot to him. I still think that his interaction with his wife, and especially the way he dealt with her loss, is a very important piece we're missing on his relationship with adolin.

I think it is important to his relationship with Adolin, but not in the ways you are currently thinking.

[Humpty]

I had to comment on this post, to those of you who are thinking being honorable and moral as two different things here is the definition of the word "honorable" taken from the dictionary......... "having or showing honesty and good moral character"  as you can see it says AND good moral character not OR. Just my thoughts on the subject anyway.

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Humpty said:

thinking being honorable and moral as two different things

However, Moral (as a noun) can be defined as: "a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do."

By that definition, Szeth would be considered Moral. What was not acceptable for him to do was suicide and giving up his Honorblade. He only did what was acceptable for him to do under a person's standards/beliefs. The fact that those standards were his own is irrelevant, as you would willingly accept a "good guy" who lived by a self-imposed code as being moral.

Honor and Morals are words brimming with gray areas.

Edited July 18, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, Humpty said:

I had to comment on this post, to those of you who are thinking being honorable and moral as two different things here is the definition of the word "honorable" taken from the dictionary......... "having or showing honesty and good moral character"  as you can see it says AND good moral character not OR. Just my thoughts on the subject anyway.

That's not the only definition of honor. Honor is also "holding strictly to a code of conduct" 

And Brandon has said repeatedly that the none of the Shards are good or evil. 

It is separated from morality. 

Edit: @Humpty

Read through the WoBs various people posted in this thread I started specifically on this subject. 

Brandon has made it clear that "Honor" does not necessitate "good" 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Calderis

[IndigoAjah]

Honor and goodness and different approaches to morality and ethics would appear to be one of Brandon's big themes for SA. I can't wait to see yet other aspects of it. So far we see keeping your word (this binds Kaladin, even where one aspect of keeping his word was obviously unethical) being key to Honorspren, the fixation on Law by Nin, on Truth by Cryptics, and so on. I wonder if there are 10 aspects distinct enough to explore?

But the words of the oaths so far seem ethical and moral as well as honorable, so interesting to see what happens.

 

we've also seen ethical codes like deontology, utilitarianism and others pop up and clash. It's a good ground to discuss these aspects (which Mistborn touched on differently), and in that respect it's already excellent Spec Fic

[cometaryorbit]

The Shards are all 'broken gods', principles separated from a greater context, so Honor isn't necessarily at all equivalent to Goodness.

I'd think there could be evil Radiants. What there can't be are unscrupulous Radiants, working solely for personal advantage without concern for a 'code' or principles.

Some of the Orders' codes are probably more corruptible than others, but a Skybreaker enforcing laws for a tyrannical government seems entirely possible. There's a WOB that the Lord Ruler might have qualified to be a Skybreaker. We don't know enough about the Oaths for most of the Orders, but I'd imagine there are others that could be twisted fairly easily.

[Calderis]

Exactly. We know that both the Skybreakers with their law driven code, and the Elsecallers with their logic would accept a machiavellian. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1181#26

Quote

ANDREWHB

Is Niccolo Machiavelli's political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants' First Oath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli's theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.

QUESTION

As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

So the code they follow may have nothing to do with the actions they take, but they must have a code to follow. 

[Steeldancer]

Didn't we get confirmation at some point as to the name of Shshshsh? I feel like it began with an E. 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

Didn't we get confirmation at some point as to the name of Shshshsh? I feel like it began with an E. 

It's Evie I believe, from Dalinar's flashbacks of the dinner? 

[Steeldancer]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's Evie I believe, from Dalinar's flashbacks of the dinner? 

Right. Thanks.