DrakeMarshall Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 hours ago, Roadwalker said: Statement is consistent with standard truth value, " This sentence is not true. " If sentence is not true, then sentence must be lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. Reveal hidden contents If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. If sentence is a lie, then statement " This sentence is not true. " is obviously false and thus the sentence is true. Proven: Truth. If sentence is truth, then sentence is obviously not true. Thus the sentence is a lie. Proven: Lie. ERROR: Mechanical Mind Overload. Emergency Self Destruct. Don't you just love recursive code? 18 minutes ago, Hemalurgic_Headshot said: But never mind, this talk of lies and truth has summoned me! LIES!!! You've been summoned by the influence of Ruin. It says it all in your name. Also, good to have you, Sareth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightnessRadiant Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 I also do my best to avoid lies...except when it's for a game that's all about lies aka mafia haha It's just pretend bluffing so I don't find it wrong morally. I just try to tell the truth irl though. "Mmmm lies." ~Pattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megasif Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, BrightnessRadiant said: I also do my best to avoid lies...except when it's for a game that's all about lies aka mafia haha It's just pretend bluffing so I don't find it wrong morally. I just try to tell the truth irl though. "Mmmm lies." ~Pattern “Mm. Those are some of the best lies.” Edit: Credit to Pattern Edited July 10, 2017 by Megasif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Lies are a tricky business. Aren't idioms, in the most literal sense, basically lies? Pattern said as much. They're just lies that we all know about. Society is built on those kinds of lies. What about a lie that is in essence a simplification, which ultimately serves the purpose of making a concept easier to understand, ultimately enlightening people, which is in fact the polar opposite of deception? I have to conclude that what matters is the intent. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megasif Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 “Ah yes. A metaphor? Such delicious lies." Pattern again After understanding the post above: Level of transcendence - Sareth Achieved 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 There are two kinds of lies: those told to benefit yourself ("I didn't do it") and those told to benefit others ("of course you look good in that outfit"). Being "honest" to most people means telling none of the first kind. Lying in a game that is based upon lies allows the game to function correctly, and so benefits others, not just yourself. Hacking another player's account and reading their GM PM would benefit only yourself and hurt the play experience of others, so that should not be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sami Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) What about sarcasm, or unintentional deceit? (Do they count as lies?) Edited July 10, 2017 by Sami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 15 minutes ago, Sami said: What about sarcasm, or unintentional deceit? Unintentional deceit is not wrong at all. If I believed that it was raining, and told you so, but later learned that I was mistaken, why on earth would that be morally wrong of me? I fully believed I was telling the truth, at the time. As for sarcasm... Well that depends. Are you using a sarcastic remark that simply amuses everyone? Or are you trying to hurt someone with it? Or are you maybe using it to argue against something that is wrong? Or are you using it to argue against something that isn't wrong? Most of the time, it's some mix of all of those, 'cause people aren't perfect, and our intents are never purely good or purely evil. And the problem is compounded by the fact that we aren't even that good at discerning the finer points of our own intents, let alone those of other people. Obviously, ethics is complicated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 35 minutes ago, Sami said: What about sarcasm, or unintentional deceit? Unintentional deceit, in my opinion, should be regarded nearly the same as truth, because that was the intention behind it. Sarcasm is more complex. I tend to regard it as not a lie but not necessarily truth, because the message was conveyed truthfully even by saying something untruthful. As long as it is clear that you're using sarcasm, what matters is less the words themselves and more the message conveyed. The same principle holds true for hyperbole and metaphor; for example, a person saying "I'm clumsier than an elephant" might be literally false, but it truthfully conveys the idea that they shouldn't be trusted with the fancy crystal cups, and so should be regarded as not a lie, but not necessarily the truth. (Unless, of course, the statement was intended to be a lie as a social maneuver, which is another discussion entirely). Sarcasm and exaggeration and metaphor fall into the grey area where the statement isn't capital-T Truth, but it isn't a lie either, and so I personally consider them honest because no lie was done or intended. 27 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said: Obviously, ethics is complicated. Amen, brother. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sami Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said: Obviously, ethics is complicated. Haha anybody who has any thoughts to the contrary can check out the million discussions on the ethics of Spoiler Adolin's actions in killing Sadeas. That can get very heated at times Edited July 10, 2017 by Sami 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Sami said: Haha anybody who has any thoughts to the contrary can check out the million discussions on the ethics of Adolin's actions in killing Sadeas. That can get very heated at times (Might be good to spoiler that; not everyone here has read the end of WoR) Okay, here's an ethics question for you: (Stormlight spoilers about certain of Jasnah's actions) Was Jasnah's "ethics experiment" with the soulcaster in the alley ethical? I believe it was just but not ethical. Not ethical because Jasnah went out there with the intent to entrap men and kill them, but it was just because the men received just punishment for their actions in the form of instant, painless death. Edited July 10, 2017 by Elenion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, Elenion said: Okay, here's an ethics question for you: was Jasnah's "ethics experiment" with the soulcaster in the alley ethical? I believe it was just but not ethical. Not ethical because Jasnah went out there with the intent to entrap men and kill them, but it was just because the men received just punishment for their actions in the form of instant, painless death. Well. That's a complicated one. On one hand, it could be said that her actions were unethical, for the reason that it was not her place to mete out justice to those men. On the other hand, a "greater good" argument could be made... This is similar to why any society ever allows a death penalty. Potentially, killing those people results in a net positive effect, and therefore if Jasnah killed them for the intent of producing that net positive effect, it may not have been wrong of her. On the other hand, even if the killing those people produces a net positive effect in the world, it is possible that Jasnah could have dealt with them in a different way that is preferable to killing them. If she was aware of an alternative course of action that would have produced an even greater net positive effect, her actions then become morally questionable. On the other hand, Jasnah's primary motive seemed to be to teach Shallan a lesson. It is quite unlikely Jasnah would have gone out and killed those men if she was not doing it to teach Shallan about ethics. This implies that Jasnah's primary intent was not doing the right thing or producing a net positive effect, and she in fact used the greater good argument as an excuse to further her own ends. On the other hand, as I may have mentioned earlier, our motives are always impure. So probably it was a mix of everything above I just listed, and her actions are neither blameless nor wholly evil. In absolute terms though, I will conclude that Jasnah probably should not have done what she did. On the other hand, I seem to have sprouted an unnatural number of hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sami Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Elenion said: (Might be good to spoiler that; not everyone here has read the end of WoR) Whoops didn't think of that. Just did it 1 hour ago, Elenion said: Okay, here's an ethics question for you: was Jasnah's "ethics experiment" with the soulcaster in the alley ethical? @Drake Marshall seems to have said it all. I definitely agree that it wasn't right (or ethical if you like) It may have been just but then I don't see killing as right/ethical in general. The men could have been locked away for life or dealt with in a less violent manner, and that would have been just as well; Jasnah was purely capable of doing that. Instead she coolly proceeded to end their lives. But yeah, as you said, ethics is complicated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldancer Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 What an interesting sign up thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sami Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, The Flash said: What an interesting sign up thread. You're telling me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seonid Posted July 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, The Flash said: What an interesting sign up thread. And this is why I love the 17th Shard! Also, @Elenion you might want to spoiler the sentence in your quote as well. Another also: all this ethics talk makes me miss Kasimir. Edited July 10, 2017 by Seonid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkrunner Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Yes I love this thread. To input my thoughts, Jasnah was wrong on almost all levels of what she did. 'Nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megasif Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 15 minutes ago, Roadwalker said: Yes I love this thread. To input my thoughts, Jasnah was wrong on almost all levels of what she did. 'Nuff said. I second that. Almost. If I could remember I would mention it but... there was a theory of a sort that they were assasins sent for Jasnah and that she had her sight on them for days. I can't remember if it was just a wild theory or something more concrete though... Or I could just be getting confused... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkrunner Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Spoiler Well yes she had a ton of assassins after her, but she had also assassinated a bunch of ghostbloods. WoK&WoR spoilers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudjumper Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Signing up as Corinoc, a con artist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seonid Posted July 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 23 minutes ago, cloudjumper said: Signing up as Corinoc, a con artist. Welcome to the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenion Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Seonid said: And this is why I love the 17th Shard! Also, @Elenion you might want to spoiler the sentence in your quote as well. Another also: all this ethics talk makes me miss Kasimir. Good point. @Roadwalker @Megasif @SamiI'm going to play devil's advocate for a second and ask: what if those guys had targeted someone other than Jasnah and succeeded in doing something horrible? What should the punishment have been for them? I think the death penalty would have been fitting, because they would have had no remorse for their actions and would likely have done them again, so killing them would have been net positive. That's where I think Jasnah's actions were just, in that she administered a fitting penalty for their intended actions, but they weren't ethical because her intent in setting out was to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkrunner Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 Whenever I try to get into ethics, it leads back to the fact that this thing will happen until we have utopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted July 10, 2017 Report Share Posted July 10, 2017 22 minutes ago, Roadwalker said: Whenever I try to get into ethics, it leads back to the fact that this thing will happen until we have utopia. « Les utopies apparaissent bien plus réalisables qu’on ne le croyait autrefois. Et nous nous trouvons actuellement devant une question bien autrement angoissante : comment éviter leur réalisation définitive ?… Les utopies sont réalisables. La vie marche vers les utopies. Et peut-être un siècle nouveau commence-t-il, un siècle où les intellectuels et la classe cultivée rêveront aux moyens d’éviter les utopies et de retourner à une société non utopique moins « parfaite » et plus libre. » Utopias appear to be much easier to realize than formerly believed. We currently face a question that fills us with much more anguish: How to avoid their becoming definitively real? Utopias can made real. Life is moving toward utopias. And perhaps a new century is beginning, a century in which the intellectuals and the educated classes will dream about how to avoid utopias, and how to return to a non-utopian society, with less "perfection" and more freedom. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrightnessRadiant Posted July 11, 2017 Report Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Spoiler Jasnah could've turned some of their limbs into crystal or something haha (problem solved) Also I don't agree with Adolin but I was still happy about it ha! SA spoilers Edited July 11, 2017 by BrightnessRadiant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts