Shardmonk

The Lost Metal

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I'm not entirely sure this goes here, but do we know what the titular lost metal is? My first thought, and I think the more accepted theory, was atium. Clue is this quote:

"The plaque read: ATIUM, THE LOST METAL" (Pg 161 of Shadows of Self)

But recently I started thinking, what if it's lerasium? It would certainly fit the Set's goal of making Allomancy more accessible to the public, and they'd probably make a mean profit in the process. 

The only argument I can think of that could explain an sudden atium hunt is if the Set have heard of its future predicting ability, which might've been exaggerated to the point where they'll gain far sight into the future. Now while I would love to read the look on Sequence's face when she realises it grants a couple seconds best, surely Harmony would've explained atium in the Words of Founding, and if not, they have Trell working with em. Surely it would know.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts. There's a fair chance I'm wrong, and this might've been discussed to death before I got here, but I can't remember seeing anything. 

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Like you said, everyone has been wondering what the Lost Metal is. It feels too easy to be atium, especially with that plaque specifically calling it "The Lost Metal." Brandon either felt like forcibly shoving foreshadowing down our throats for that one scene, or that was put there to purposefully mislead us about what the true Lost Metal is. I'm willing to bet it's the second one, but who knows? :ph34r:

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I dont think it will be as straightforward as this, knowing B. Have a feeling they're going to be running around half the book assuming the metal is atium, even though we have the clue about Paalm's Spike being a metal Harmony doesnt know.  I kinda assumed it was another shard (Going by Trell?) in the system being there long enough to invest and create their own god metal.

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4 minutes ago, Shrimple said:

I dont think it will be as straightforward as this, knowing B. Have a feeling they're going to be running around half the book assuming the metal is atium, even though we have the clue about Paalm's Spike being a metal Harmony doesnt know.  I kinda assumed it was another shard (Going by Trell?) in the system being there long enough to invest and create their own god metal.

Yeah, that's part of what I'm thinking, but at the same time, how could Trellium have been lost? That would've required it to have been known at some point.

But this got me thinking, if Trell is a shard, which most people think they are, then if Trellium is a god metal because this shard has Invested in Scadrial long enough for it to create a godmetal, does that mean that at some point, this shard would Invest to the point of starting another magic system on Scadrial? 

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9 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

Yeah, that's part of what I'm thinking, but at the same time, how could Trellium have been lost? That would've required it to have been known at some point.

But this got me thinking, if Trell is a shard, which most people think they are, then if Trellium is a god metal because this shard has Invested in Scadrial long enough for it to create a godmetal, does that mean that at some point, this shard would Invest to the point of starting another magic system on Scadrial? 

Yeah, and we know there was a religion that worshipped something called Trell, so he's at least visited. That said, why don't Preservation or Ruin make any mention of a third Shard? Can Shards hide from others sharing a planet?

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The "Lost" Metal could very well be misdirection.  As for the other point, lemme start with saying I'm not the best versed on Shardic Investment on a planet.  I'm not sure if creating a magic system is an automatic thing or only if they purposefully make one. I think it's the latter. I figured Trell was just piggybacking off of the Magic System already in place. Converting agents and using Subterfuge and whatnot.

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2 minutes ago, Shrimple said:

The "Lost" Metal could very well be misdirection.  As for the other point, lemme start with saying I'm not the best versed on Shardic Investment on a planet.  I'm not sure if creating a magic system is an automatic thing or only if they purposefully make one. I think it's the latter. I figured Trell was just piggybacking off of the Magic System already in place. Converting agents and using Subterfuge and whatnot.

I think it's more likely that Trell is using the existing systems, since Scadrial's magic tends to be pretty easy to discover. Of course, this depends on how much control Shards have over magic systems. If Trell could design it, then he might only choose to give it to certain followers. But again, I think "simply" twisting the magic is a safer bet.

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10 minutes ago, Shardmonk said:

Yeah, and we know there was a religion that worshipped something called Trell, so he's at least visited. That said, why don't Preservation or Ruin make any mention of a third Shard? Can Shards hide from others sharing a planet?

Well, the leading theory, at least that I've heard of, is that a Shard actually either adopted Trell as a persona, or they planted the religion of Trell for them to come back and use later.

(Very slight spoilers for White Sand)

Spoiler

Some people believe that Trell is actually a disguise for Autonomy, especially since Autonomy appears as several different gods in the pantheon of gods on Taldain, I think (pretty sure there's a WoB about that somewhere). Plus, the whole plot with Paalm wanting to free the world from Harmony screams very autonomous.

9 minutes ago, Shrimple said:

The "Lost" Metal could very well be misdirection.  As for the other point, lemme start with saying I'm not the best versed on Shardic Investment on a planet.  I'm not sure if creating a magic system is an automatic thing or only if they purposefully make one. I think it's the latter. I figured Trell was just piggybacking off of the Magic System already in place. Converting agents and using Subterfuge and whatnot.

I'm pretty sure that magic systems, unless planned by a shard, are actually side effects of Investing in a planet. The same for the creation of godmetals, I believe. While Trell definitely could've been just piggybacking at first, I think it's likely they've Invested enough to create a new magic system, assuming Trellium actually is their godmetal.

@The One Who Connects @Extesian @Calderis You guys wanna help with my WoBs and poke at my explanations? :P

Edited by StrikerEZ
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24 minutes ago, Shardmonk said:

Yeah, and we know there was a religion that worshipped something called Trell, so he's at least visited.

Unlikely, as that religion was very different from what we see from Miles.  More likely, the invading Shard just picked up on the name in order to get more supporters.

 

And I don't think it would be that big of a spoiler for us to know what metal the title of the book refers to, so I'm still leading toward it being atium.  None of the other candidates were really "lost", more "never well-known in the first place".

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Well the leading candidates for Trell are as @StrikerEZ said Autonomy, or Odium. 

SA spoilers 

Spoiler

The time from for Era 2 Mistborn is roughly in the 15 year gap between the first and second half of SA and a number of people think the end of the first half will allow Odium to get free of the Roshar system. 

Of the two I lean towards Autonomy, because, again as StrikerEZ stated, We have WoB (don't have time to look it up at the moment) that Bavadin has appeared as entire pantheons before. 

The first instance of Trell in Mistborn is from Sazed preaching to the crew. The religion he preached, and the Trell that Miles speaks of in AoL are very very different.. So the theory is that Trell hijacked a preexisting religion to undermine Harmony. 

I personally have no evidence, but hope Trell is a new Shard using tactics Bavadin has already proven work, mainly because I'm greedy and want to see a new player. 

As far as the magic system... It's a little of both options. By my understanding (and I'll gladly accept more input here, because I haven't looked into this extensively) a magic system naturally forms by the relationship between a Shards investiture and the nature of the planet. But the Shards do have some control. 

The annotations of Mistborn state that the hole in Hemalurgy that allows Ruin (and therefore Harmony) to control spiked beings was intentionally put there by Ruin. 

So Trell investing enough to create a God metal could mean a new system (or considering Feruchemy, multiple new systems) emerge, or it could create additional effects within the existing systems. I honestly have no clue how it will play out.

Edit: some WoBs that may be relevant

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1121#19

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1179#6

Quote

QUESTION

Has Wax seen the influence of Shard other than Preservation, Ruin and Harmony?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. He has seen the influence of another Shard.

QUESTION

Might that Shard be Autonomy?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It might.

TAGS

Wax ,  Harmony ,  Autonomy
Quote

QUESTION

How do we pronounce Bavadin? Have we see his/her influence on other worlds till now – like Austre in Nalthis or other religions which Sazed studied on Scadrial for example.

BRANDON SANDERSON

ba-va-din (ba as in batman, va as in want, din as in dinner). Yes you have seen her influence in other worlds other than Taldain. He wouldn't confirm if it is Nalthis or Scadrial or any other planet.

TAGS

bavadin

And on that second one, is it Ba-va-din or Ba-wa-din, cause I really dislike the w sound in the middle and never considered that possibility... 

Edited by Calderis
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38 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

Unlikely, as that religion was very different from what we see from Miles.  More likely, the invading Shard just picked up on the name in order to get more supporters.

 

And I don't think it would be that big of a spoiler for us to know what metal the title of the book refers to, so I'm still leading toward it being atium.  None of the other candidates were really "lost", more "never well-known in the first place".

 

32 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Well the leading candidates for Trell are as @StrikerEZ said Autonomy, or Odium. 

SA spoilers 

  Hide contents

The time from for Era 2 Mistborn is roughly in the 15 year gap between the first and second half of SA and a number of people think the end of the first half will allow Odium to get free of the Roshar system. 

Of the two I lean towards Autonomy, because, again as StrikerEZ stated, We have WoB (don't have time to look it up at the moment) that Bavadin has appeared as entire pantheons before. 

The first instance of Trell in Mistborn is from Sazed preaching to the crew. The religion he preached, and the Trell that Miles speaks of in AoL are very very different.. So the theory is that Trell hijacked a preexisting religion to undermine Harmony. 

I personally have no evidence, but hope Trell is a new Shard using tactics Bavadin has already proven work, mainly because I'm greedy and want to see a new player. 

As far as the magic system... It's a little of both options. By my understanding (and I'll gladly accept more input here, because I haven't looked into this extensively) a magic system naturally forms by the relationship between a Shards investiture and the nature of the planet. But the Shards do have some control. 

The annotations of Mistborn state that the hole in Hemalurgy that allows Ruin (and therefore Harmony) to control spiked beings was intentionally put there by Ruin. 

So Trell investing enough to create a God metal could mean a new system (or considering Feruchemy, multiple new systems) emerge, or it could create additional effects within the existing systems. I honestly have no clue how it will play out.

Edit: some WoBs that may be relevant

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1121#19

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1179#6

And on that second one, is it Ba-va-din or Ba-wa-din, cause I really dislike the w sound in the middle and never considered that possibility... 

Oh, for some reason I never noticed the difference between Era 1 Trellism and Miles' idea of it. I guess there's a fair chance it's Autonomy, then, or it could be a new Shard (didn't consider that, so thanks Calderis), possibly working with Odium, who fears Harmony, and using Bavadin's tactics.

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4 minutes ago, Shardmonk said:

 

Oh, for some reason I never noticed the difference between Era 1 Trellism and Miles' idea of it. I guess there's a fair chance it's Autonomy, then, or it could be a new Shard (didn't consider that, so thanks Calderis), possibly working with Odium, who fears Harmony, and using Bavadin's tactics.

I really hope it's a new Shard, but realistically I'm not going to be surprised if it's Autonomy. 

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10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I really hope it's a new Shard, but realistically I'm not going to be surprised if it's Autonomy. 

Yeah, Brandon will probably reveal the Shard he's been talking about for years without actually showing, and we probably shouldn't try and figure out what new Shard it could be despite having absolutely nothing to go off. At the same time, though...

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Atium, lerasium, harmonium, and "trellium," (not a canonized name IIRC) aren't the only candidates for being the "Lost Metal."  Brandon has mentioned that:

  1. There are metals which any allomancer could burn regardless of their orientation
  2. There are vitally important things about how the metallic arts work that haven't been revealed yet

It pretty much can't be lerasium as far as I'm concerned, as that would really undermine the world-building and designing Sanderson has done following the fall of the FE.  New full-power mistborns would undermine a lot of the plot structure of era 2.  If there are new mistborns, they have to be "weak" and extremely rare.

Also, Harmony is confirmed to be the only shard Invested on Scadrial, so "trellium" wouldn't count as a God Metal in the commonly understood sense unless it is some alloy of atium, lerasium, and/or harmonium.  Despite this, Sazed didn't recognize it.  As far as I can tell, it's possible that there are metals outside the chart that are either compatible with the metallic arts, or that can be made compatible through some sort of hack.

WARNING - WILD SPECULATION TO FOLLOW:

For example, if a hemalurgic iron spike is alloyed or soulcast, it might still confer its stolen attribute.  Just because no mistings/ferrings are born who are able to use a specific material, doesn't 100% confirm that that material can't be used in the metallic arts.  Previous analyses of the heredity of allomancy and Scadrian population breakdowns have, IIRC, largely concluded that things like malatium mistings don't appear naturally despite the fact that malatium is a viable allomantic metal.  It's possible in my mind that metals like titanium and cobalt could serve as a focus for Harmony's Investiture, but no one has discovered this because those mistings/ferrings just don't exist or are extremely rare.

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Here are a few more about Trell that clarify why people think it's Autonomy, particularly the last two. 

Quote

Q:So first, about Trell…He was first mentioned in the first Mistborn book. Did you already know he’ll have a bigger role in the future? (unintelligible, seems to ask about whether he knew the plans for Trell when writing original Mistborn); The guy that asked that question is in or facebook group so I checked it with his post.
A: When I actually was writing Mistborn, no, by the time I’d done revisions and finished the series, then I knew. Mistborn was very exploratory, the first book, once I finished it then I build the outline to fit it, it’s very common to me that I write a first book without an outline and then I build an outline around it.
(unintelligible) Something about Trell’s brother
A: So there’s something very weird happening with Trell, very very weird, that I’m not going to explain quite yet, so that’s a RAFO

Quote

QUESTION

Can you give me any information about Trell?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It read: "Trell has been many things over the eons..."

Quote

ERIC

For the metal in Bleeder, is it from a Shard we know?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

 

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26 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Here are a few more about Trell that clarify why people think it's Autonomy, particularly the last two. 

 

Oooh... I hadn't seen that last one. If it's from a Shard we know, then I guess I'm pretty solidly in the autonomy camp. 

Thanks Extesian. 

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5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Oooh... I hadn't seen that last one. If it's from a Shard we know, then I guess I'm pretty solidly in the autonomy camp. 

Thanks Extesian. 

Right? It's great. Combined with the previous one, and our knowledge of Bavadin, it's pretty compelling.

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10 hours ago, hwiles said:

Atium, lerasium, harmonium, and "trellium," (not a canonized name IIRC) aren't the only candidates for being the "Lost Metal."  Brandon has mentioned that:

  1. There are metals which any allomancer could burn regardless of their orientation
  2. There are vitally important things about how the metallic arts work that haven't been revealed yet

It pretty much can't be lerasium as far as I'm concerned, as that would really undermine the world-building and designing Sanderson has done following the fall of the FE.  New full-power mistborns would undermine a lot of the plot structure of era 2.  If there are new mistborns, they have to be "weak" and extremely rare.

Also, Harmony is confirmed to be the only shard Invested on Scadrial, so "trellium" wouldn't count as a God Metal in the commonly understood sense unless it is some alloy of atium, lerasium, and/or harmonium.  Despite this, Sazed didn't recognize it.  As far as I can tell, it's possible that there are metals outside the chart that are either compatible with the metallic arts, or that can be made compatible through some sort of hack.

WARNING - WILD SPECULATION TO FOLLOW:

For example, if a hemalurgic iron spike is alloyed or soulcast, it might still confer its stolen attribute.  Just because no mistings/ferrings are born who are able to use a specific material, doesn't 100% confirm that that material can't be used in the metallic arts.  Previous analyses of the heredity of allomancy and Scadrian population breakdowns have, IIRC, largely concluded that things like malatium mistings don't appear naturally despite the fact that malatium is a viable allomantic metal.  It's possible in my mind that metals like titanium and cobalt could serve as a focus for Harmony's Investiture, but no one has discovered this because those mistings/ferrings just don't exist or are extremely rare.

I suppose part of Era 2 Allomancy is that it's more specialised. I'm starting to think it's atium alloyed with an off-world metal. 

7 hours ago, Extesian said:

Right? It's great. Combined with the previous one, and our knowledge of Bavadin, it's pretty compelling.

Yeah, the Autonomy theory seems really strong.

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Just want to quickly throw my crazy idea in. In BOM we see the first instances of Harmonium, a metal with unknown affects. I thought it might be interesting if the "Lost Metal" name might be referring to Harmonium, a metal that only has (potentially) appeared once before in Scadrialian history.

I was thinking that since Preservation and Ruin worked together in order to create life on Scadrial, this cooperation could have resulted in a temporary Harmony shard. At this point, since they were new Shards they might have allowed some Harmonium to form before Preservation trapped Ruin.

 

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I still think the whole book is about Wayne losing his gold pocket watch, but I haven't gained much support on that theory. 

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1 hour ago, Andy92 said:

I still think the whole book is about Wayne losing his gold pocket watch, but I haven't gained much support on that theory. 

Well, you now have mine. Alternately, the title is a typo and it takes place during an economic depression where Allomantic metals are increasingly rare, culminating in a desperate hunt for the titular Last Metal.

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3 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Just want to quickly throw my crazy idea in. In BOM we see the first instances of Harmonium, a metal with unknown affects. I thought it might be interesting if the "Lost Metal" name might be referring to Harmonium, a metal that only has (potentially) appeared once before in Scadrialian history.

I was thinking that since Preservation and Ruin worked together in order to create life on Scadrial, this cooperation could have resulted in a temporary Harmony shard. At this point, since they were new Shards they might have allowed some Harmonium to form before Preservation trapped Ruin.

 

So you're saying that the Investisture merged for a while? Could Feruchemy be the result of this, or does it predate Ruin and Preservation entirely? 

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That's along the lines of what I was thinking. If Feruchemy is acquired via Harmonium similar to Lerasium, it could be an interesting explanation for the origin of Feruchemy since we don't have a solid explanation for where it originally came from. If the Lost Metal is Harmonium and it does work this way, it would also fit in the the Set's mission of making powers more available.

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36 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

If the Lost Metal is Harmonium and it does work this way, it would also fit in the the Set's mission of making powers more available.

Where does this idea come from, I've seen it a couple of times now and at least the way I understood it in book, the set are only interested in spreading powers among themselves. Widespread powers would run counter to their interests. 

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33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

 

EDIT: nvm misunderstood your question.

Edited by Necessary Eagle
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