Odium' Champion "The Thrill"

[OneNastyChull]

WOR SPOILERS

Spoiler

Ok so pretty sure it was mentioned in WOR that one of the only ways to break the cycle of Desolations was for the Rosharians to get Odium to accept a champion vs champion battle. Any thread that already speaks about this that someone can reference me too? If not I've got some ideas...

 

[OneNastyChull]

Awesome thanks man. Seriously if you haven't read WOR stop reading. 

 

I think Adolin is being prepped to be Odiums champion. At first I thought his character development would be just to be a love triangle but once champion was mentioned it's all I could see him doing. He's already succumbed to the Thrill to a huge degree and the way he just nonchalantly walked away after driving a knife into Sadeas eye seems like an intentional escalation of extreme violence by BS. Also since it would most likely be Kalodin who would be Honor's champion then he is even a better choice for Odium because Odium understands the brotherly love that is developing between them (which is why when Kaladin gets with Shallan, even if temporarily, will drive Adolin full darkside) and Odium will seek to use the fallout of the extreme hatred that will develop from that love.

There is no doubt in my mind that Dalinar is being prepped to be slaughtered in an awful way. I think it will be Kaladin or Shallan's choice not to save him. If it's Kaladin then he will have to save someone else or he will just fail to save Dalinar. Or it could be that Shallan kills Dalinar because she is trying to end the desolations (that's a whole other theory I have). 

Anyways hate is stronger if you first loved that person. In fact I (and many philosophers) think that you can only hate something you once loved and I think Brandon is holding back doing something this nuts just for this series. 

Probably not gonna find out for like 20 years though  

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by OneNastyChull

[Calderis]

It's been touched on in multiple threads, but if it's been the focus of one its been dead long enough I think you're safe just making a new thread in the Stormlight forum. 

[maxal]

Adolin didn't slaughter a defenseless child just to get an advantage for himself nor did he kill a man merely because he disagreed with him. He does not enjoy harming living creatures, he doesn't carry in him the need to dominate nor to crush.

The man he killed wasn't just an ordinary man: he was the man responsible for the useless slaughter of 6000 of Adolin's soldiers. He then kept it up by attempting to assassinate his father, a ploy which also killed numerous innocent bystanders. Non content with this, he also gloated on how he would first kill Adolin's father, then the king, all that in the matter of a few months, he'll war Adolin but is convinced he would eventually see the rightness in his actions. He pushed it further in saying he would never ever stop opposing Dalinar as there can only be one of them. He confirmed there was absolutely nothing they could do to prevent him from attempting to win, not caring how many people he needs to kill to get there, except for killing him.

And thus Adolin killed him. Sadeas wasn't just a man: he was a crazy despot having caused many deaths and being intend on causing many more additional ones, not to forget the fact he was a traitor to his country.

I would also point out Adolin doesn't succumb to the Thrill, he fought it and, at the end of WoR, he can't feel it anymore, even when he needs to keep on fighting a foe. He is so disturbed by the ordeal he shakes and drops his Blade, in the middle of a battle. He doesn't walk away nonchalantly from the crime scene, he is in shock: "Has he killed a Highprince", he speaks are being into a daze and his hiding the clues is nothing more than the panicked reaction of someone having done a terrible action. Terrible because he killed a man, with his own hands, but not terrible because this man definitely had it coming.

Thus, Adolin killed Sadeas or Adolin being dumped by Shallan no way are the first steps towards becoming Odium's champions. What he did, what he feels is so little when compared to other characters. Kaladin practically succumbed to hate and vengeance for very personal reasons; Shallan killed her parents, Jasnah killed feeling men and Dalinar... What Dalinar did is about one thousand times worst than Adolin killing Sadeas.

Adolin would never oppose his family nor would he ever fight them nor attempt to kill them. He is about the less likely candidate for this task as he does not carry hate nor ambition nor personal flaws which would be easily manipulated by Odium. 

And Dalinar is not a nice person. I will buy his attempt at redemption on the day he will admit what he has done instead of keeping it a secret.

[OneNastyChull]

I was speaking towards the future in all that I said towards Adolin/Shallan. And I'm looking at Adolin as the champion for reasons of age/skill/and on the idea that BS would introduce the character who would become the champion pretty early in this series. I'm ruling Dalinar out because he's only going to slow down at this point and Adolin has surpassed him (any fight between champions will either mean both are given stormlight or neither).

Also Dalinar had been on a 20 year self quest of forgiveness which is pretty difficult if you have ever met someone past age 35 trying to do. He had help from cultivation (is that what everyone thinks the thing in the east that gives the two-sides boons or has this already been figured out to be something else?) and that definitely helps but he was feeling the need for redemption from the moment Galivar died.

 Adolin can't be manipulated? Love is easily the 2nd largest catharsis for hate that has ever existed. And Adolin has been already shown to be the one who easily loves and leaves. What's going to happen when he loves and stays but then they leave?

Adolin can tell no one about killing Sadeas because of fear which is the largest cartharsis for hate. He has to stay involved with his family , be made a ruler, and honestly he isn't particularly mature in any way. This is someone who at the wrong age commited murder. Your most formative years are your 20s and Adolin now has to hold the secret that in his moment of having complete control of his most loathed enemy spoke to him and then shoved a knife into his eye. Adolin didn't relish the murder? Are you kidding me? He monologued like your most evil brute would. Yeah he panicked as most criminals do at the idea of getting caught but instead of like an honorable man and just copping up to it, he hid the body. That doesn't speak to him being a good guy and if he gets away with it its the perfect seed for more murder. 

 

Everyone around him, his reformed father, his brother, his new best friend Kal, and Shallan  (essientially a crush because she is never going to tell him her secrets so they can never be equal) now all are part of a group that he can't join. He is going to feel outcasted no matter what he or they do to try and include him. 

 

Lastly the champion fight is going to be a duel and he is already regarded as the best duelist.

Also thank you for offering a counter view. Would be so boring otherwise. 

[Calderis]

16 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

Adolin can't be manipulated? Love is easily the 2nd largest catharsis for hate that has ever existed. And Adolin has been already shown to be the one who easily loves and leaves. What's going to happen when he loves and stays but then they leave?

Adolin has not been shown to love and leave. His been shown to enter into superficial relationships easily and have them fall apart before any real emotions form. His loyalty is his most prevalent quality, and once he does feel something he won't be going anywhere. Doesn't strike down the later part of your statement, but I feel the first portion is invalid. 

20 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

Yeah he panicked as most criminals do at the idea of getting caught but instead of like an honorable man and just copping up to it, he hid the body. That doesn't speak to him being a good guy and if he gets away with it its the perfect seed for more murder. 

I intentionally didn't respond when you initially posted because I knew @maxalwould jump all over this and explain it better than I'd be able to. This though... I don't agree at all. His actions after the fact are textbook shock. He succumbed to adrenaline. 

Adolin is probably the most Honor driven character in the book. It's either him or Kal, and I place him above Kaladin due to the whole Elhokar ordeal. More murder is outside his character completely, as this killing was completely driven by his protective instincts towards his friends and family, and the anger at everything Sadeas had already done. 

25 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

Everyone around him, his reformed father, his brother, his new best friend Kal, and Shallan  (essientially a crush because she is never going to tell him her secrets so they can never be equal) now all are part of a group that he can't join. He is going to feel outcasted no matter what he or they do to try and include him. 

What makes you think he could never become a Radiant? 

I see nothing prohibiting him from becoming one. 

 

[OneNastyChull]

A true serial murderers first kill is usually someone they know and detest. This kill was something that he talked himself into being able to do because he had so many reasons of possible future pain. Again I am not disagreeing that Sadeas wasn't a bad person (although I do wonder if Odium wasn't influencing him in a bid to get this exact reaction from Adolin because Adolin would be the prize for Odium) and murdering him was an end-sum reaction brought upon by him screwing them over again and promising more, I'm not disagreeing with any of that. In by all cases this is the easier path.

Now stating that let's look at the first oath. Life before death. Well since Sadeas wasn't actually trying to kill Adolin only trying to subvert his influence and ruin his future I hope you can agree that killing him wasn't the only option. Exposing him and changing the culture was the path to take even if it's clearly nearly impossible. Strength before weakness. Letting someone goad you into killing them is weak. Journey before destination again I go back to that there was another option and it wasn't killing Sadeas. Expose him, banish him, do whatever it takes but don't kill the red nosed twit. 

This means that in that action Adolin ran completely counterpoint to the oath which is why he won't be a radiant anytime soon. Could he change? Totally all he has to do is go ahead and admit to murdering a high prince and deal with the fallout which would likely be banishment because Dalinar has to do something but he won't kill him. 

 

Oye I do need to reread on some of the interactions with The Thrill though. I'm not doubting you being right on that maxal and I definitely need to try and reread Adolins response to it. I'll get back to you on that.

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

Now stating that let's look at the first oath. Life before death. Well since Sadeas wasn't actually trying to kill Adolin only trying to subvert his influence and ruin his future I hope you can agree that killing him wasn't the only option. Exposing him and changing the culture was the path to take even if it's clearly nearly impossible. Strength before weakness. Letting someone goad you into killing them is weak. Journey before destination again I go back to that there was another option and it wasn't killing Sadeas. Expose him, banish him, do whatever it takes but don't kill the red nosed twit. 

This is precisely why I think that you are wrong. 

All of the Oaths are open to interpretation by the individual and the Spren. Brandon has said that two Windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept, so it's not even consistent within an individual order with the same Spren. 

Gavilar was on his way to becoming a Bondsmith. He received the Stormfathers visions before Dalinar. And everything that both Amaram and Taravangian are doing is directly inspired by Gavilar. The popular interpretation of the first oath is not the only way to interpret it, and Brandon himself has said that while some orders would be opposed to what Adolin did, others would have viewed it as right. 

Edit: here's a specific example I hadn't seen before 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#21

Quote

SWEETNESS

What would the Willshapers think about Adolin killing Sadeas?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Willshapers would probably be ok with that.

TAGS

adolin ,  willshapers ,  radiants ,  words of radiance

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

Just now, OneNastyChull said:

A true serial murderers first kill is usually someone they know and detest.

If we are arguing as to whether or not Adolin is going to become a serial killer, then I feel this discussion is going to end rather soon. Quite frankly, this is taken so out of context, it completely defies all textual evidence: there is absolutely no rational to support Adolin starting to kill random people because he so succumbed to hate. Calling Adolin a criminal is so unfair and diminutive. What would you refer to Jasnah, Shallan and Dalinar? They all killed and often for lesser reasons than Adolin. Dalinar... Gee. His so-called redemption, it is hard to speak of it because that's Oathbringer's spoilers, but what he did is so bad it should put him beyond redemption. Worst is, Dalinar isn't acknowledging it or he hasn't yet. Sure he says he used to be blood-thirsty, but do you have any idea what it means? Take your worst guess, make it even worst because that's the truth. 

I would advise trying to re-read the Adolin chapters and try to read what is truly written, the emotions which are really being passed and not the ones you feel ought to exist because you would prefer if the outcome for the character was highly negative.

There is also a lot of WoB support which completely run against the bulk of your argumentation, but my main issue with it, is none of it actually fits Adolin's character. He is not hateful, he never succumbed to the Thrill (this would be Dalinar, not Adolin, Adolin has always been very mild even when within the Thril), he didn't relinquish within the murder (where did you even get that? the scene reads completely differently) and your analysis of Adolin's reasons for his relationship failures are off. We do know why it never works and it isn't because Adolin falls in love to easily, it is quite the opposite. He isn't allowing himself to fall in love, he is sabotaging all of his relationships because he is afraid he won't be good enough for them. It isn't he can't love, but he is afraid of being who he is with people. This has been a running theme for him. Also, he's the one who has been dumped more often than not, not the other way around. Sure Shallan is likely to actually hurt, but gee all broken hearten people aren't turning in serial killers! I think you are being confused, being a serial killer means you are a sociopath and Adolin is so far away from being one, I can't even begin to see where this rational comes from.

Also where are you getting Shallan is never telling him her secrets? You haven't read Oathbringer, so how can you presume what will or will not happen? We do not know how their relationship will evolve, discussion has been various and not all are in agreement, but will all agree it could go various way. Nobody can claim something will most definitely happen, especially not something so far-fetched as this.

Really, I do not get the interest in "evil Adolin". Each time I read those arguments, I feel I haven't read the same book. I understand people preferring Shallan to end up with Kaladin, but making Adolin turn evil for it is just about the worst narrative ever, especially since nothing in the character precludes such a sharp turn and no, one murder doesn't even begin to qualify for it. Not in a world where basically everyone has done even worst.

 

[OneNastyChull]

Ah I see what you are saying. I'm still pretty behind on all the Q&As Brandon has answered but I'm trying to catch up while still actually absorbing it all. So just wondering which order would you say Adolin fits into and why? I feel like he is disqualified from at least Elsecaller, bond smith, skybreakers, truthwatchers, illuminators, and windrunners. I'll tell you why I think so for those orders if you disagree with any thus far. 

[maxal]

1 minute ago, OneNastyChull said:

Ah I see what you are saying. I'm still pretty behind on all the Q&As Brandon has answered but I'm trying to catch up while still actually absorbing it all. So just wondering which order would you say Adolin fits into and why? I feel like he is disqualified from at least Elsecaller, bond smith, skybreakers, truthwatchers, illuminators, and windrunners. I'll tell you why I think so for those orders if you disagree with any thus far. 

I'll get you a bunch load of WoB later on today. It is sure going to help your personal speculation.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, OneNastyChull said:

Ah I see what you are saying. I'm still pretty behind on all the Q&As Brandon has answered but I'm trying to catch up while still actually absorbing it all. So just wondering which order would you say Adolin fits into and why? I feel like he is disqualified from at least Elsecaller, bond smith, skybreakers, truthwatchers, illuminators, and windrunners. I'll tell you why I think so for those orders if you disagree with any thus far. 

The Oaths we've seen from Edgedancers fit his personality very, very well. We also know that his is an Edgedancer blade

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1128

Quote

KALADIN AL'THOR

So I noticed during my last read through of WoR that when Adolin summoned his blade, it formed from mist in the shape of vines. Does this mean that the Radiant that the blade was originally bonded to was an Edgedancer?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, yes it does. (He also had a huge mischievous smile).

TAGS

Adolin ,  shardblade ,  edgedancers

I'm personally a proponent of the theory that he will eventually revive his Shardblade. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

I agree with maxal and calderis arguments, but my argument against this theory is far more pragmatic.

1. Champion idea has likely been around since original SA manuscript

2. Adolin died in tWoK prime

Conclusion, whatever Adolin's amazing future ( and I expect great things from him) it's unlikely to be along charted waters. Which is why blade awaken theory fits in nicely. Its impressive but possibly not predecided when Brandon sat down to write SA.

P.s. I don't disagree, but why not truthwatchers? We know so little of them I can't decide either way

Edited July 2, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[StrikerEZ]

1 minute ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

P.s. I don't disagree, but why not truthwatchers? We know so little of them I can't decide either way

True, we know so little of them, but Adolin just fits Edgedancers so well (from what we've seen at least), and Renarin, a Truthwatcher, just seems so different from Adolin, it seems unlikely they'd have the same order. It's not impossible, I guess, but unlikely.

[Storming Radiant]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I'm personally a proponent of the theory that he will eventually revive his Shardblade. 

Wow. I never heard this theory, but it's just beautiful. Is there any thread that expands on this idea?

 

[OneNastyChull]

Sorry I'm having problems getting the quote thing to work right for me (doing this all from an iPhone and ticking my family off because I've basically been sucked into only researching the cosmere instead of my families reunion but I'll get on my computer when I get back to Austin)  but I feel like I need to start over or at least state why I feel like the series would be elevated by a betrayer being featured and such a fleshed out character. First I've struggled to ever read a series where this has been done well. Most authors won't even touch the idea because it is always so badly done. Brandon (to my knowledge) has yet to have tried this trope either because he thinks it's too badly done by others, too hard, he dislikes it immensely, or because he was holding it off for this series. I'm hoping it is the latter but I have trust that regardless of whether there will be a betrayer that the series will have a right to rep itself as the greatest modern epic ever made. (If he comes to Austin my exact question is going to be is there going to be a Betrayer character in SL) Stormlight has already surpassed WOT by the end of book two in my mind at least. 

Now yes this does make me "look" and even disregard somethings that I certainly should be considering (because BS doesn't waste a word of dialogue or even a line in explanation; every line he rights almost always turns out to be foreshadowing, the man is a literary freak of nature like that). Anything is always relevant making rereads totally necessary. The closest to a bad book he wrote was Elantris and I loved it still. 

Now im going to address what you said when you implied that Adolin could not be a sociopath. That is simply not true. First consider that at least half of all humans are sociopaths on earth. Second sociopath is a very broad term. It mostly means you don't feel empathy in a proper way that forms healthy bonds with humans.  You still form bonds but they usually don't display a type of equality that true friendships or relationships are built on. Also this is all subjective because psychology is definitely the least explored science (outside of science fields we don't even know of yet) and least understood science and it's likely that half if not more of what we know of it is wrong.  I hate to tell you this but you are likely friends with a sociopath. You actually yourself have a high likelihood of being a sociopath as because the higher your natural intelligence the more predisposed you are to have sociopathic tendencies (I'm going to assume most if not all on this forum have higher than average intelligence mostly because to appreciate a book to the degree that you would want to talk this much about it means you strive for knowledge) 

Now I have met a LOT of sociopaths. Unfortunately I at first wanted to be a doctor earlier in my life and I shadowed a lot of doctors and I can tell you nearly all of them are sociopaths. Sociopaths are usually charming on the service and can make you feel emotion that you wouldn't even believe possible. But you stretch past that service too deeply and you'll start to notice something's that aren't quite right, unfortunately you usually already like them to such a degree that you are willing to look past these things (much to your own detriment). Without going into deeper classification of sociopaths (narcissists, psychopaths, ect) there are varying levels of how sociopathic you can be. Your background can also suppress or enhance much of this but nature is hellishly strong. 

I don't particularly care for anyone who is ok with the idea of slavery and Adolin is definitely ok with this, in fact almost everyone is in Stormlight except those enslaved. Honestly the only main character thus far that I think isn't a sociopath is Kaladin. Everyone else displays all the textbook signs with Shallan probably being the worst if not Renarin. 

So yeah I haven't read Oathbringer so I don't know what's going to happen in it. Which honestly is a terrible point to make by you. That's like saying hey don't speculate because you could be wrong! Whats the point of that when this question was meant to speculate. If you have somehow read Oathbringer and have access to knowledge that the general public does not know then really you should excuse yourself from all discussions from those that have only been able to read up to WOR. Essentially you are inadvertently spoiling.

Now if you haven't read Oathbringer, like me, then I can say the same to you. You haven't read Oathbringer so you don't know what secrets Shallan will or won't tell Adolin. Going off Shallans character thus far though I think it's safe to say she isn't someone willing to give up many of her secrets to someone else. Everytime she tells Pattern something she hates him more it seems including that time she said "I hate you". She goes out of her way to lie to people when the truth would be much easier. It's even the basis of her spren type, liespren.  

Im not claiming anything will most definitely happen and please excuse the word choice that has given you this implication. It's a theory and that's what theories do, they predict an ending. I'm not sure why you are so against me speculating. You have a differing opinion and that's great! But don't try and tell me I can't have one or that there is only one way to read two characters interaction in this series. Your life experience differs from mine as do your wants and desires. Only the writer has an end all opinion because, well, they made it and it's their art. I happen to think that BS made Adolin to be a deeper character than just what you have stated and I think there has been a lack in character development for him thus far because this was the pivotal moment that will lead to his development escalating (that moment being killing Sadeas). Have a differing opinion and definitely shoot holes in my ideas with literary facts or even ideas drawn from your life experiences. I'm going to do the same and since this is such a forward thinking idea I'm mostly going to pull from life experiences on how people act. Don't try and shut down discussion. 

This discussion is who will be Odiums champion if he in fact goes that route. I can't imagine why Brandon Sanderson would say that about Odium allowing a champion battle unless he was either foreshadowing an eventuality or as a huge misdirection to those that want to speculate. If you were to speculate that a champion battle would occur, who would you offer as this champion for Odium using only knowledge drawn from WOR and Q&As? 

I'm responding to you next Calderis after I eat this burger.

[OneNastyChull]

Wait Adolin was killed off in a draft of WoK? Alright I'm just gonna go ahead say that I can't support my theory anymore. What is SA?

[OneNastyChull]

On Truthwatchers it's mostly the separation from the other orders and it kinda seems like they are implying they are the most intelligent order while also being introverted. Elsecaller seems like the intelligent extroverted order.

[OneNastyChull]

Alright Calderis I'm gonna take the con position on your idea of him reawakening his blade (honestly I'm pro him reviving it now that I'm disregarding my Adolin Champion theory but hey let's have discussion!). So to reawaken his blade wouldn't he have to have a spren already to just to gain regrowth powers? This idea of him reawakening it is like a dead chicken (the shard blade) coming before the egg (his stormlight power). Although if he becomes a squire of lift or another edge dancer? Or maybe shardplate can come first (I've always wondered if shardplate could be a spren tied to cultivation instead of honor) and that will allow him to revive it. I dunno that seems like an awesome idea and I want it to be true because that would be awesome but it seems illogical with what I know so far. 

[OneNastyChull]

Lastly I still want to know who the Champion will be unless it's just a distraction that Odium will never go for. I mean surely if BS actually goes the champion battle route we will get some character development of Odiums champion because introducing that kind of villain so late would really suck.

[maxal]

Sociopaths are described by an inability to emphasize with other people. Adolin is one of the most emphasizing individual within the cast we have. He manages to have sympathy for a prostitute, for darkeyes, for Kaladin, for his soldiers, for basically everyone and no the fact he hasn't start to attempt at abolishing slavery doesn't make him a sociopath. It makes him a non-rebellious individual (not purposefully, I say his last actions will quite certainly turn him into one, but an unwilling one), a non-reformer: he doesn't have the right mental frame right now to figure out "slavery is evil". Even if he did, there is nothing he can do about it. You can't ask book characters evolving within worlds where rules are different, where the social context strongly differs to adopt modern sensibilities and, providing they fail, say they are sociopaths. 

Changing from a mindset of slavery to a mindset of freedom has taken the United-States decades and a civil war, even then there were those which opposed themselves. The movement took time, effort to reach the people: changing your mindset demands provocation, but basically believing what everyone else around you believes still doesn't make you a sociopath. You can't ask for those characters to stand against slavery, how could they? This is how they were raised. Slavery wasn't abolished because people one day decided: "Oh no this is wrong.", it took tremendous provocation for people to be able to emphasize with the slaves, to humanize them. It took literature, it took Uncle Tom's Cabin, for people to start to realize the grim truth: not all were beating and starving their slaves, but when a book allowed them to feel what it felt like to be a slave, many switch their guns and became against slavery. 

Roshar never had this opportunity: they don't even have literature nor art able to convey those feelings towards the population. Men don't even read and in a world where most people are kept ignorant, where most people are illiterate and/or unable to understand the meanings of art, providing Vorinism even allows them enough freedom of speech to voice it, you can't expect individuals to stand against slavery except for those having experienced it from up-close. Still, the people aren't sociopaths: they were never given the mind frame required to emphasize with their slaves, but even lacking this, Adolin comes across as the most emphasizing individual in the series. How many people would help a prostitute? You think she is better off than a slave? Hardly. How many people would sit in prison for a darkeyed and, even better, give him Shards? How many time did it happen within the history of Roshar? Kaladin knows the name of each darkeyes which made it to Shardbearer: not one was because they were awarded Shards, all killed a Shardbearer in battle. A rare event, so rare the name of those succeeding are remembered. And now Adolin just did what nobody else before him presumably did: he gave Shards to Kaladin as a reward for his actions. And that's not empathy? That's somehow sociopathy?

Sociopaths within SA could be Jasnah, Elhokar and Gavilar: these three are the closest we have and even then, I might be stretching it thin to refer to them as such. Despite all his wrongs, Dalinar is not a sociopath, he is just a mad man who'd kill everyone around him when grabbed by the Thrill who needed outstanding control to stop behaving this way. That's why he is so rigid: he can't allow not to be rigid, hence he'd go back top whom he was.

Needless to say I strongly disagree with the idea Adolin is anywhere close to being a sociopath nor do I believe one second this is where he is heading. Of course, I haven't read Oathbringer, but this speculation is so unlikely, based on the character we have read so far, I would give it less than a percent chance of happening and even them, I find myself generous.

On the matter of Shallan, part of her progression is to admit truths to herself. It is safe to assume, if she truly loves Adolin, she will eventually tell him. Besides, the truth won't remain hidden forever: Dalinar has sent people to inquire over her house. It will come out, whether she wants it or not, she is smart enough to figure it out. I say, she will tell him, but when she is ready and when she feels he is ready to hear it. She has had no reasons to tell him so far (she wasn't ready and also he wasn't ready), so to think it somehow means something drastic on Adolin's persona because she didn't is false-route. If, once the event of Oathbringer unravel, she still does not tell him, then we can have an entirely different discussion.

1 hour ago, OneNastyChull said:

Wait Adolin was killed off in a draft of WoK? Alright I'm just gonna go ahead say that I can't support my theory anymore. What is SA?

Adolin died in WoK Prime. In WoK, first draft, he survived but had no viewpoints. Brandon explained how the character took different decisions which changed his life path. He then became a viewpoint character within the final version of WoK because without him, Dalinar's story arc was flat out boring and complicated to follow. It was one major critic Brandon received from his beta read: Dalinar didn't work out. It worked within a plan, but not in the story, so Brandon promoted Adolin to viewpoint character to make it work. Since then, the character grew on him and he now has his own story arc. It is however true he wasn't planned to have one which makes it true any plot point drafted early on are almost sure to exclude him. 

1 hour ago, Storming Radiant said:

Wow. I never heard this theory, but it's just beautiful. Is there any thread that expands on this idea?

 How many Adolin threads did we have within the past three years? I lost count. Check out the Stormlight sub-forum: there are a few which are still active.

2 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

P.s. I don't disagree, but why not truthwatchers? We know so little of them I can't decide either way

Truthwatchers are said to be secretive, mysterious, learning and giving. The ones we did get to see, within the story, were quiet people, forgettable people, whom all have been doing their own thing, on their own without sharing much.

I say Adolin couldn't be farther away from this order than he actually is. He isn't secretive nor is he learning: he hasn't shown a propensity to learn new things, even if he is perfectly able to and far from being dumb. He is just very pragmatic. He learns things he finds useful.

[Calderis]

@OneNastyChull OK. First off, multi-posting is frowned upon here. If no one has posted, there's an edit button on the bottom of you post that you can add to it.

Sociopaths... Yes it's not uncommon, but it's closer to 15%, not 50. Doctors are not a significantly higher ratio of sociopaths across the board but Surgeons are. I have no diagnosis but I show Sociopathic tendencies myself, and almost every relationship problem I've ever had stems from my lack of empathy. 

That said, Adolin is in no way a sociopath. His concern for others is readily apparent in his desire to protect his family and Shallan. His concern for his men. His dedication to the memory of the fallen. I can in no way understand how you can read his viewpoints and think he is without empathy.

Renarin is autistic. His perceived lack of emotion is due to this. 

Using slavery as a strike against people in this context is attempting to place modern day values on a society with a different set of social norms then ours. It is not applicable. If anyone in this society were raised being taught that slavery is alright, it would be viewed differently. There is an entire section in the book of Leviticus about the proper treatment of slaves, so it is not even prohibited via religion in the west, but by changed social norms. 

On The blade revival, It would not require regrowth. If in WoR, when Syl died, if Kal had already spoken the third Oath, she would have been trapped as a Shardblade, and progressing as he did would have revived her. 

The difficulty in the case of Adolin's blade is that he doesn't have a preexisting Nahel bond with his Blade, so it is much more difficult. He is still bonded to the blade though. He treats it with respect, and speaks to it. The Oaths of the Edgedancers first his personality well. So I believe that if he is living as an embodiment of those oaths, and speaks a variant of them, the bond he already has will be transformed into a Nahel bond and his Blade will revive, just as Syl came back when Kaladin progressed. 

I have no doubt there will be a Champion. As far as who it will be... If I had to guess, I'd say Moash at this point, but that's a blind guess that I don't expect to be correct. 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by Calderis

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, OneNastyChull said:

Wait Adolin was killed off in a draft of WoK? Alright I'm just gonna go ahead say that I can't support my theory anymore. What is SA?

SA= Stormlight Archive 

It takes a bit to get used to all the acronyms  

Whenever the conversation of the Champion comes up, my thoughts keep coming back to the four which the Aimians are watching (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and Szeth). And yes, that those four are the ones that have been kept mostly steady since WoK prime is part of it.

Edited July 2, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Storming Radiant]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

On The blade revival, It would not require regrowth. If in WoR, when Syl died, if Kal had already spoken the third Oath, she would have been trapped as a Shardblade, and progressing as he did would have revived her. 

The difficulty in the case of Adolin's blade is that he doesn't have a preexisting Nahel bond with his Blade, so it is much more difficult. He is still bonded to the blade though. He treats it with respect, and speaks to it. The Oaths of the Edgedancers first his personality well. So I believe that if he is living as an embodiment of those oaths, and speaks a variant of them, the bond he already has will be transformed into a Nahel bond and his Blade will revive, just as Syl came back when Kaladin progressed. 

This sounds awesome!! I really want it to happen now. Upvote!

(btw, I downvoted at first accidentaly. Sorry...)

[maxal]

4 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

SA= Stormlight Archive 

It takes a bit to get used to all the acronyms  

Whenever the conversation of the Champion comes up, my thoughts keep coming back to the four which the Aimians are watching (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar and Szeth). And yes, that those four are the ones that have been kept mostly steady since WoK prime is part of it.

Not exactly.

In WoK Prime, Kaladin was named Merrin and he did take the Shards. His story arc was about him getting used to them under the guidance of Aredor (then Adolin who wasn't the eldest but the second son. There was a third Kholin brother which died defending Gavilar). Brandon completely changed his character for WoK.

Dalinar and Szeth were more or less the same.

Shallan didn't even exist: she is a mix of two characters, I think, but the latest version of her wasn't in WoK Prime.

WoK Prime was entirely written from scratch for the first draft of WoK as we know it. 

Edit: Bunch of WoB relevant to this discussion.

Quote

QUESTION

I am very convinced that Adolin, with the events that happen with the last book. You’re sending him down a like a dark path. Is he possibly going to be a-- Antagonist(?) protagonist(?)-- A bad, eventually? Or is he--

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m going to say this, the things that Adolin did do not contradict some of the moralities on Roshar, in fact they follow them directly. Some of the moralities on our planet would say what he did is the right thing to do. I think treating it as a “dark path” is too reductionist to say. There are people who would seriously argue, and they would have a good argument, that what Dalinar was doing by leaving Sadeas around was a good idea. And then there are other people who would say “You know what Sadeas did was a challenge and it was rightly then responded to” and then there are people who would say it was absolutely immoral. So, it depends on your philosophy. What would Honor say? Well, Honor’s dead, so-- *lots of laughter You know Honor would not have been behind that action, but Honor’s dead.*

QUESTION

What Jasnah did, in the first book, with Shallan in the alleyway. And what happened at the end of this book, between Adolin and the other character. Would you put them on the same level? Or would you say that what Adolin did was maybe a little bit darker?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would say that what Adolin did was less dark, personally. I would say that what Adolin did was something that needed to be done, that no one else was capable of doing.

QUESTION

Will it have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, there are definitely ramifications. How it's handled, there's lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong

JERICH

Are there radiant orders that would take someone like Adolin even after what he does at the end of Words of Radiant

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon: I am not going to say whether or not Adolin will become a Knights Radiant, but yes, there are several orders that would be very happy with what he did. Me: Like the Skybreakers or Dustbringers? Brandon: The Skybreakers would probably not want him because he broke a law, but there are other orders that would think he completely did the right thing and be very happy with him. Trickonometry (who was waiting in line behind me): Like the Dustbringers? Brandon: (Didn't say anything but looked up at him, smiled and half nodded)

RURO272

Was Adolin's murder of Sadeas him falling under the influence of Odium, or was that all him?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That was all Adolin.

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by maxal

[+ILuvHats]

On 7/2/2017 at 0:58 PM, maxal said:

Dalinar... Gee. His so-called redemption, it is hard to speak of it because that's Oathbringer's spoilers, but what he did is so bad it should put him beyond redemption. Worst is, Dalinar isn't acknowledging it or he hasn't yet. Sure he says he used to be blood-thirsty, but do you have any idea what it means? Take your worst guess, make it even worst because that's the truth. 

God.  Now I'm terrified to read Oathbringer.