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Quick Fix Game 24: Eliminating Elysium


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@randuir I think he's saying we should ALL name a separate target player who we would use actions against for that cycle? @Yitzi2 is that right? I guess if you could add fake claims into the mix this might work but what if a player takes an action against someone who uses cytonics against them just because they're worried that they might be using a dangerous action on them or something? Or they think that person will put in the elim kill? What kind of info would we get if the elims killed one of the players named if we all named a different player? It seems like an easy way to set up a villager for a mislynch. I'd like to try to find the best way to use every action including cytonics, so I'm just trying to avoid any catastrophic loopholes.

I'm also still really curious whether the UIB agent can be used for an alignment scanner or not. Cuz if it can be, then we should definitely use cytonics even more sparingly since we could really use that role. We don't wanna kill them off, and we don't want them role claiming either unless they're about to die anyways.

 

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2 hours ago, randuir said:

Okay, there's less than 6 hours left for C1, so I should probably put my vote out there. I might switch around at a later point, but for now I'm going to go vote on Lopen. He sets his vote up as a typical poke vote (Hey, you haven't said much yet, here is a vote and some questions to get you to talk more), but the vote he places is actually the second vote on him. He's well aware of this as well, as he included a vote tally. I'm not against a poke vote, if it's the first vote on someone, but in this case the vote moved Ecth to the most likely position to get him lynched(in any other cycle, probably not, but in C1 a lead like that can be deadly). It is also not unusual for Ecth to be quiet during the first cycle.

I'm still weary of both PK and Yitzi, though less so of Yitzi than I was before. If necessary I might move my vote to break an ecthelion/yitzi tie though.

Remember, There are no vote manip powers, and the secret vote power needs to be activated on a night turn, which hasn't occured yet, so there is no reason to consolidate the vote on any particular suspect.

Vote tally:

Ecthelion(2): PK, Lopen

Brightness(1): Seonid

Yitzi(3): Brightness, Bridge Boy, Jondesu

Bridge Boy(1): The Flash

Lopen(1): Randuir

I think of typical poke votes as "hey you, are you around?" which aren't very helpful. In this instance, I was hoping to put some actual pressure on someone with my vote, so I picked someone who already had a vote on them. Someone getting a second vote on them tends to help the lynch discussion get going a lot better too. I'm not sure what you think was suspicious about the vote, since I gave Ecth more than enough time to respond, and it's not like people are gonna pile on to Ecth on C1 when he hasn't said any game discussion. Well, Arinian did vote on Ecth, which was kinda weird, but whatever. :P

Anyways, my vote was less about the target and more about helping the lynch discussion along. If Ecth happened to be an Alien, then maybe the vote would get some reactions that could help us.

47 minutes ago, Paranoid King said:

Ecth. Arinian.

There's no reason whatsoever for people to vote on Ecth right now. Poke-votes are just to see if they're active. I'm not suspicious of Ecth at all, and seeing so many people attack her makes me really suspicious of them

Uhh, "so many people?" 2 players voted on Ecth, so that's a bit of an exaggeration. Arinian's vote on Ecth was kinda weird, but mine was pretty passive. It wasn't much of an "attack." As far as reasons to vote on Ecth, well, he hasn't contributed to discussion. I think that's good enough reason(but like I said above, people won't usually pile on during C1 because of this). That's not to say I think we should lynch him, because it is true that he's died C1 a few times, and I know that sucks, but I do find your defense of Ecth/attack of me and Arinian kind of strange.

I'll go ahead and remove my vote, although I'd still like to hear from Ecth.

As for Yitzi, I haven't read over the plans as extensively as I would have liked to, but I still hold to the idea that villagers tend to be the ones who put forward flawed plans much more often than eliminators. The only thing I've seen from him that I'd consider suspicious is that he hasn't really talked about the lynch at all, which is the thing that's ultimately going to decide who wins this game. But I don't know if I'd want to lynch him over that.

Mostly for the post I just quoted, I'm gonna put my vote on PK. His strong defense of Ecth seems weird(like he knows his alignment maybe?), and I don't like how he cast suspicion on me and Arin(because I know I'm village and I don't like it when players lump multiple players from a group as suspicious).

I'll read over the strategy posts better in a while. I just wanted to get my lynch discussion stuff up as early as possible.

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35 minutes ago, TheMightyLopen said:

I think of typical poke votes as "hey you, are you around?" which aren't very helpful. In this instance, I was hoping to put some actual pressure on someone with my vote, so I picked someone who already had a vote on them. Someone getting a second vote on them tends to help the lynch discussion get going a lot better too. I'm not sure what you think was suspicious about the vote, since I gave Ecth more than enough time to respond, and it's not like people are gonna pile on to Ecth on C1 when he hasn't said any game discussion. Well, Arinian did vote on Ecth, which was kinda weird, but whatever. :P

Anyways, my vote was less about the target and more about helping the lynch discussion along. If Ecth happened to be an Alien, then maybe the vote would get some reactions that could help us.

What mostly struck me was the fact that you felt the need to add a second vote to Ecth in addition to asking him some questions and (@)Mentioning him. He has actually been tied for most votes at one point, in addition to leading until the votes started piling up against Yitzi, so your argument that it probably wouldn't hurt him doesn't seem to actually hold in this case. However, your argument do make some sense, I guess. Lopen.

About Yitzi, has anyone else noticed that he hasn't exactly been defending himself much? He's mostly been continuing to try to find a way to allow village roles to get around the cytonics system (or at least he's trying to appear that way).

On the one hand, I'd like to think that an elim would try to defend himself more if he was the leading candidate for the lynch, instead of just continuing with trying to find a useful tactic for the village. On the other hand, this would fit within his play-style, from what I've seen in other games, at any rate, and if he was an elim he might try to have his team-mates defend him by proxy, which would probably be done with arguments like the one I (and Lopen) have just made. Yeah, I should probably cut this part out of my post.

Speaking off people that haven't posted at all yet (yes, we where definitely talking about that): @Cluny the Scourge, will you be joining us anytime soon? Also, @cloudjumper, I can see that you are both online and looking at the thread right now (or where doing that recently). Do you have any insights you wish to share with us?

Vote tally:

Ecthelion(1): PK, Lopen, Arinian

Brightness(1): Seonid

Yitzi(4): Brightness, Bridge Boy, Jondesu, The flash

Bridge Boy(0): The Flash

Lopen(0): Randuir

Drake Marshall(1): StrikerEZ

Arinian(1): PK

Cloudjumper(1): Asterion137

Paranoid King(1): Lopen

 

@Sart, I've got another question. Apologies if this has already been answered somewhere. Will there be a difference in the write-up between PC, Alien and cytonics kills?

Edit: okay, Cloudjumper was no longer looking at the thread by the time I posted this, but the point stands.

Edited by randuir
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5 minutes ago, randuir said:

What mostly struck me was the fact that you felt the need to add a second vote to Ecth in addition to asking him some questions and (@)Mentioning him. He has actually been tied for most votes at one point, in addition to leading until the votes started piling up against Yitzi, so your argument that it probably wouldn't hurt him doesn't seem to actually hold in this case. However, your argument do make some sense, I guess. Lopen.

About Yitzi, has anyone else noticed that he hasn't exactly been defending himself much? He's mostly been continuing to try to find a way to allow village roles to get around the cytonics system (or at least he's trying to appear that way).

On the one hand, I'd like to think that an elim would try to defend himself more if he was the leading candidate for the lynch, instead of just continuing with trying to find a useful tactic for the village. On the other hand, this would fit within his play-style, from what I've seen in other games, at any rate, and if he was an elim he might try to have his team-mates defend him by proxy, which would probably be done with arguments like the one I (and Lopen) have just made. Yeah, I should probably cut this part out of my post.

Speaking off people that haven't posted at all yet (yes, we where definitely talking about that): @Cluny the Scourge, will you be joining us anytime soon? Also, @cloudjumper, I can see that you are both online and looking at the thread right now (or where doing that recently). Do you have any insights you wish to share with us?

Vote tally:

Ecthelion(1): PK, Lopen, Arinian

Brightness(1): Seonid

Yitzi(4): Brightness, Bridge Boy, Jondesu, The flash

Bridge Boy(0): The Flash

Lopen(0): Randuir

Drake Marshall(1): StrikerEZ

Arinian(1): PK

Cloudjumper(1): Asterion137

Paranoid King(1): Lopen

 

@Sart, I've got another question. Apologies if this has already been answered somewhere. Will there be a difference in the write-up between PC, Alien and cytonics kills?

Adding a second vote to someone was the point of my vote, to get everyone serious about lynching someone. I try to ask questions or give the player I'm voting on something to respond to so that I, or anyone else who voted on the player can have something new to reevaluate once the player responds, instead of the accused player just reacting to the votes on them(which don't usually have much reasoning to react to this early). And I never said it probably wouldn't hurt him. :P I just didn't think he'd be lynched simply because I added a second vote on him.

Yeah, I noticed that about Yitzi. I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative, but it is kind of odd. Typically, I'd expect a player to defend themselves and try to find an alternate candidate for the lynch, regardless of which side they're on. But he hasn't mentioned suspicions or anything like that. >>

@Yitzi2, do you have any suspicions or players you think are village?

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@Yitzi2Looks like your knowledge of game theory is much better than my own, so I'll defer to you on that point.

I'm going to vote Cloudjumper because I don't like lurking as a strategy.

Sorry, right now I'm more focused on LG24 than this game. I'll probably be able to do more analysis once it finishes up.

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Hi everyone who voted or mentioned me and everyone else who wants to read this too, so I wasn't actually reading the thread and stuff for most of the time I've been on, I had a different tab open. Haven't read the thread carefully yet, perhaps will do some analysis later.

Edited by cloudjumper
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2 hours ago, randuir said:

I kept my calculations relatively simple, so I assumed that each person would was the only one using non-cytonics actions (bringing in the others makes things significantly more complicated).

I'm not sure what you are suggesting here. Do you mean that everyone should indicate someone that they'd prefer would not ward against them, or do you mean that each cycle we have a vote for one person that shouldn't be defending so that they can be scanned (and, drawback: killed) without risk? Or do you mean something else?

Also, has it been confirmed that PC kills will be confirmed as being such?

If there's only one using non-Cytonic actions, then I'm wondering how you get from 20% per person to 50% for 3 people, when only one of the three is using non-Cytonic actions.  And if you just scale up, then you end up overestimating.

I meant the former.

1 hour ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

@randuir I think he's saying we should ALL name a separate target player who we would use actions against for that cycle? @Yitzi2 is that right? I guess if you could add fake claims into the mix this might work but what if a player takes an action against someone who uses cytonics against them just because they're worried that they might be using a dangerous action on them or something? Or they think that person will put in the elim kill? What kind of info would we get if the elims killed one of the players named if we all named a different player? It seems like an easy way to set up a villager for a mislynch. I'd like to try to find the best way to use every action including cytonics, so I'm just trying to avoid any catastrophic loopholes.

I'm also still really curious whether the UIB agent can be used for an alignment scanner or not. Cuz if it can be, then we should definitely use cytonics even more sparingly since we could really use that role. We don't wanna kill them off, and we don't want them role claiming either unless they're about to die anyways.

"Fake claims" would be guaranteed, since everyone is naming someone but not everyone is targeting someone.

And it would require that everybody agrees to (if they're villagers) not use cytonics against someone who names them.  This would slightly increase the chance of death of the people who agree, but survival is not a win condition.

And if everybody names someone else, and the elims decide to always target people who the kill-placer named, then we can notice who named people who were then killed.  Multiple namings of the same person will reduce this somewhat, but we could see who tends to double up.  And yes, it could set up a villager for a mislynch once every few turns (though that gets into IKYK), but if they're doing that, they're killing someone who might have targeted them, while the village scanners get to avoid the risk of cytonics.

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Cloud[/color]. Good to hear from you.

I see a problem with using Cytonics as a scan for elim kills: If everyone decides to use Cytonics against Eric the Elim, he'll just have his comrade Backstabbing Bob perform the kill. And I don't think the elims will have much motivation to kill those scanned by the UIB agent, because a person's role doesn't say much about their alignment.

Edited by Elenion
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25 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

If there's only one using non-Cytonic actions, then I'm wondering how you get from 20% per person to 50% for 3 people, when only one of the three is using non-Cytonic actions.  And if you just scale up, then you end up overestimating.

Right, what I did was just calculate the odds for one person, and then based on those odds scale it to more people. that does mean I'm overestimating the risk somewhat, but I've got enough complicated math to deal with in my study to also break it out here to account for all possible permutations.

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2 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Cloud[/color]. Good to hear from you.

I see a problem with using Cytonics as a scan for elim kills: If everyone decides to use Cytonics against Eric the Elim, he'll just have his comrade Backstabbing Bob perform the kill. And I don't think the elims will have much motivation to kill those scanned by the UIB agent, because a person's role doesn't say much about their alignment.

The plan kind of hinged on the fact that the UIB Agent might scan alignment, because Sart listed "Alien" as a role. I initially thought the UIB Agent just scanned roles and not alignment, but Alien is listed in the roles section, so I'm not sure. We're waiting to hear from Sart about that.

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I do find it strange that Yitzi isn't even really addressing the votes made on him, and he does seem to be trying to come up with a good plan to help the village...is it too late to try and move our votes to someone else? Mostly my other suspicions are of pk and arinian. Anyone have thoughts on if we should swing the lynch to someone else? Yitzi is usually really helpful so I'd hate to lynch him cycle 1 if he's village :unsure:

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13 minutes ago, Elenion said:

Cloud[/color]. Good to hear from you.

I see a problem with using Cytonics as a scan for elim kills: If everyone decides to use Cytonics against Eric the Elim, he'll just have his comrade Backstabbing Bob perform the kill. And I don't think the elims will have much motivation to kill those scanned by the UIB agent, because a person's role doesn't say much about their alignment.

That's the thing: By my proposal, it wouldn't be everybody saying who they use Cytonics against, but rather who should not use Cytonics against them.  So no matter who's killed, we know exactly one person who could have done so safely.

And my proposal was assuming UIB is an alignment scanner as well.  Otherwise, we should probably just all be usually using Cytonics, as knowing a role doesn't really tell us all that much.

13 minutes ago, randuir said:

Right, what I did was just calculate the odds for one person, and then based on those odds scale it to more people. that does mean I'm overestimating the risk somewhat, but I've got enough complicated math to deal with in my study to also break it out here to account for all possible permutations.

True.  Which is what I did was take the highest-total scenario (50% cytonics and 50% scanning), and then adjust lower by ignoring things like elims not guarding against elims and Cyto Adepts.

1 minute ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

I do find it strange that Yitzi isn't even really addressing the votes made on him, and he does seem to be trying to come up with a good plan to help the village...is it too late to try and move our votes to someone else? Mostly my other suspicions are of pk and arinian. Anyone have thoughts on if we should swing the lynch to someone else? Yitzi is usually really helpful so I'd hate to lynch him cycle 1 if he's village :unsure:

The votes seem to be based on objections to my earlier plan, so there's really no way to address them.

It's currently 4 on me (including you) with nobody else at more than 1.  Feel free to move, and if someone else moves as well, that will swing it without a risk of a tie.  (If I vote, then the total number is even and that makes a potential tie.)

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4 minutes ago, Yitzi2 said:

The votes seem to be based on objections to my earlier plan, so there's really no way to address them.

It's currently 4 on me (including you) with nobody else at more than 1.  Feel free to move, and if someone else moves as well, that will swing it without a risk of a tie.  (If I vote, then the total number is even and that makes a potential tie.)

Hmmmm that's true...I feel like if you were an elim you wouldn't still be trying to come up with plans on your way to the gallows. So yitzi and I'll go with arinian cuz I really don't like it when people vote for other players without giving a reason, especially when the player they voted on hasn't really said much to even merit a vote on them.

And Ninja'd by yitzi lol

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13 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

I do find it strange that Yitzi isn't even really addressing the votes made on him, and he does seem to be trying to come up with a good plan to help the village...is it too late to try and move our votes to someone else? Mostly my other suspicions are of pk and arinian. Anyone have thoughts on if we should swing the lynch to someone else? Yitzi is usually really helpful so I'd hate to lynch him cycle 1 if he's village :unsure:

Well, I do kind of feel like Yitzi is village, but I really don't like last minute changes. >> My biggest suspicion is PK at the moment, and if he's an eliminator, then I don't think Arinian would be too.

And now there's 3 votes on Arinian and 3 on Yitzi. Do we know what happens with a tie?

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Probably no lynch.  Which is good for the village if it doesn't lead to both (or just the villager among them if only one is village) being lynched later but bad if it just delays it.

Can we have another switch from me or to Arinian, or at least indications on whether a tie will just lead to both of us making the top of the lynch list?

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Well I'm fully caught up. And not much time left in the cycle.

So... I guess I promised that I'd vote this cycle. And I've been lynched before for forgetting to keep that exact same promise on a different game :P

Plus we really do need to get the game off to a swift start. The village can never afford to start slowly. So... Voting.

I guess I'm glad Ecth is no longer a major candidate, just because he gets killed so often C1. Given that our reasons behind voting someone C1 are usually pretty weak anyway, I don't think it would hurt to give Ecth a break.

So... It's between Yitzi and Arinian now. I guess voting anywhere else wouldn't make any kind of difference (plus if I decide to use cytonics, I'll want to keep my other suspicions a secret for now :ph34r:).

Between them... Hm. I feel like I've been here before in other games, but I really don't suspect Arinian. His attitude just doesn't seem right for an eliminator.

I've only observed Yitzi in one game, and I don't find their suggestion overly suspicious 'cause villagers make unpopular suggestions all the time. But it's probably the best suspicion I've got. And it's better then lynching Arin in my opinion. So, Yitzi.

That's the tie broken. Sorry Yitzi. And sorry for doing it at the end of the cycle.

 

As for action using... I see that other people have already run the math. But basically, this early on, everyone do what you think is best, probably. Later in, the risk of cytonics gets a lot higher, but for now, I'd say the UIB agent is useful enough to warrant the risk.

Guess that's that. No time for RP so I'll hit post.

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23 hours ago, Bridge Boy said:

Did we ever get an answer on what is allowed with PMs?

Once again, no PMs are allowed.

18 hours ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

I do have a question about the soldier role? @Sart 

How does this work seeing as this is a night action? How can you guard against someone who's voting for you? I think I'm just missing something here?

Edit: ninja'd by @Bridge Boy ..thanks! I'll tell her! She actually just joined the Shard a couple weeks ago as @Evenstar Rose :P

It rolls over from the previous night, if that makes sense. You guard against someone in the night, so when they try to lynch you the next day, you take action.

18 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

I would propose the following: If you are planning on targeting someone with a role action, ask their permission first.  It does give the elims some info (less so if we have fake asks as well), but at least it should help prevent friendly fire, as well as give the village maximum information if you are killed as a result of the request.

Question for @Sart: Do we find out the manner of a character's death?

Also, I will likely be unable to post night 1 and day 2 under the new schedule; can I send in my action for night 1 before it starts?

Character deaths all look the same. The Alien kill, Phone Company Kill, and Cytonic kills are all through the power of your mind. It's hard to tell who is throwing what.

14 hours ago, randuir said:

Would you be willing to comment on how densely spread the roles are? This game doesn't seem to be role-madness(apart from everyone having cytonics, I guess), but that's about all I know at this point.
 

Aliens? Bah, racist nonsense! Tom was about to voice his opinion on the bigot on the other side of those speakers, but caught himself at the last moment. Everyone else in the room seemed quite on edge, so sharing this opinion might not be the best for his long-term health.

Tom looked around the room again. Some of the people in the room with him might be human-supremacist extremists, intend on framing the peaceful aliens for a terrible act of terrorism. He wasn't planning on allowing this to happen, but how could he find them? A thought struck him. Because these people would be trying to frame the aliens, they would obviously be trying to behave like they where actually non-human entities. So to find them, he'd have to find people that where pretending to be aliens. This shouldn't be difficult at all. 

PAFO

Also, didn't get a good quote on this one, but UIB Agent is an alignment scanner. Aliens can have any role in the game, barring Phone Company Operator.

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3 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

@TheMightyLopen why couldn't they both be elims?

Because PK is voting on Arinian C1, and it's a serious vote in the middle of they Day. Eliminators don't tend to bus teammates that early.

SART! What happens with tied lynches??? @Sart

Edit: Oh. Missed Drake's vote...nevermind. :P

Edited by TheMightyLopen
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1 minute ago, TheMightyLopen said:

Because PK is voting on Arinian C1, and it's a serious vote in the middle of they Day. Eliminators don't tend to bus teammates that early.

SART! What happens with tied lynches??? @Sart

Edit: Oh. Missed Drake's vote...nevermind. :P

In the result of a tie lynch, one of the people with the most votes will be killed randomly.

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4 minutes ago, TheMightyLopen said:

SART! What happens with tied lynches??? 

Edit: Oh. Missed Drake's vote...nevermind. :P

Still good to have an answer to this, because if it is a roll of the dice to see who dies, I'll probably tie it up again.

Okay, so having the UIB confirmed as an alignment scanner is good to know, and means we probably want some way for them to do their work without too much risk, but I'll discuss that more tomorrow.

Edited by randuir
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