Sart

Quick Fix Game 24: Eliminating Elysium

434 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Paranoid King said:

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Anyways, now we've got that line of reasoning out of the way, it's time to talk about cytonics

So if you target someone with cytonics, and they target you with a non-cytonic action, they die.

This seems like it would be really useful for the village, but it's not, and here's why:

Elims can kill someone every night. Since most people will be using cytonics, it's in their best interest to have their only non-cytonic actions be the group kill. They don't want to die, plus using cytonics might kill someone. So other than the person placing the kill, elims won't be caught out by cytonic defense. (Probably. Now I've said this, the elims might go either way.)

Here's the other actions that can be caught by the cytonic kill:

  • Firebrand (1 secret vote, usually not that bad)
  • UIB agent (detects role)
  • PC operator kill (Confirmed village)

So using cytonics every cycle might not be as good an idea as it seems. Now, there's a bit of back-and-forth about that, because what I said above might make the elims more lenient about non-cytonic actions. It's an I Know You Know thing now.

But TLDR, if you're suspicious of someone, use cytonics on them. If you're not, don't stress out about wasting an action. It's okay if you don't use cytonics, because it might do more harm than good.

Elims (Probably) will use cytonics as much as possible since there's no chance of hitting their own side.

EDIT: Now I think about it, a better strategy is just to use cytonics as much as possible, and never use the role actions. It stops the elims from using their kill as much (And if they do use it, they'll target inactives, which is good for us anyways. Ignore everything I wrote above, I guess. I was just writing things down as I thought them.)

For the most part, I think the UIB Agent is the only role that'll be used early that could be killed by Cytonics. Firebrand and the PC operator will both probably wait to use their power until they are needed more(and there's more information).

So, yeah, everyone using Cytonics probably isn't too much of a risk right now. I doubt we'll actually block the elim kill since Cytonics is player specific, but it couldn't hurt.

I tried to think of some public strategy we could use to try and use Cytonics to our advantage, but the only thing I've thought of is everyone targeting one player so we can rule them out as having made the elim kill, but that gives the elims free reign to kill without giving us much useful information. So I don't think that'll work.

1 hour ago, Paranoid King said:

Alright, well, it's daytime. So I'll throw a vote on @Ecthelion III.

Ecthelion, you don't seem to have a name. I'd suggest you pick something science-fictioney.

Seonid, I think you missed this post. :P  Darn, ninja'd by Drake. Guess I shouldn't take so long to post. >>

@Bridge Boy, PM's are not allowed. Sart clarified that during signups.

@Jondesu, I see you around. Have any thoughts on the game? Any idea's for using Cytonics? Same question to @asterion137, since I see you've been online recently as well, but you haven't posted. This is a QF people, so we need you to just throw out your thoughts when you've got the time!

Also, to those who've only RP'd so far, don't forget to contribute to discussion as well. :P I'll forgo a poke vote and will probably put an actual vote down once more players have posted actual game discussion.

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Douglas looked around at the gathered dignitaries and other visitors, many of them either panicked or angry. This missile system seemed to be very poorly designed if the aliens could co-opt it so easily. He'd heard it was supposed to be foolproof.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." He muttered under his breath.

"Everyone, I know many of you work for or with the President, but we're finding out an important truth I've known for some time. Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

"Guess we'll have to pick up the slack."

He would use his mindblades to protect himself from anyone he feared might be an alien, but only as a reaction to an attack on his person. Anyone else would have to fend for themselves. At this point, no one had done anything to get his senses attuned, but he'd keep his eyes, and his mind, open.

He didn't expect this situation to remain under wraps for long, either. Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws.

(Note, I'm using multiple Douglas Adams quotes here, so I've put them in italics. Also, in case it wasn't clear, I recommend we all use Cytonics on someone, either a suspicion if you have one, or a random target if not. Later that may not be a good idea, but in these early rounds I agree with that tactic. No suspicions from me yet, but I should get a chance to post again at least once this day cycle, so I'll try to place a vote then.)

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@BrightnessRadiant So far a vote on you and a vote on me, this is a bad omen :lol:

Socrates Smith, more widely known as the archenemy of Plato Andersen, also sat in the missile room. Already there was a strange man accusing him of being an alien. That disconcerted him. People these days were so quick to violence.

People these days were also so quick to pass judgment on what everyone else said. Smith didn't really see a point in listening to people's strategy tips when he wasn't sure they weren't themselves an alien.

People these days were also so quick to lose trust, the voice in his head said. He tried not to listen to it too much, if he could help it.

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16 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Douglas looked around at the gathered dignitaries and other visitors, many of them either panicked or angry. This missile system seemed to be very poorly designed if the aliens could co-opt it so easily. He'd heard it was supposed to be foolproof.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." He muttered under his breath.

"Everyone, I know many of you work for or with the President, but we're finding out an important truth I've known for some time. Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

"Guess we'll have to pick up the slack."

He would use his mindblades to protect himself from anyone he feared might be an alien, but only as a reaction to an attack on his person. Anyone else would have to fend for themselves. At this point, no one had done anything to get his senses attuned, but he'd keep his eyes, and his mind, open.

He didn't expect this situation to remain under wraps for long, either. Nothing travels faster than the speed of light with the possible exception of bad news, which obeys its own special laws.

(Note, I'm using multiple Douglas Adams quotes here, so I've put them in italics. Also, in case it wasn't clear, I recommend we all use Cytonics on someone, either a suspicion if you have one, or a random target if not. Later that may not be a good idea, but in these early rounds I agree with that tactic. No suspicions from me yet, but I should get a chance to post again at least once this day cycle, so I'll try to place a vote then.)

We apologize for the inconvenience.

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I'm here! lol I'll be helping my sis with her newborn for a few days so I may be a little flaky, but I'll try not to be as much as possible. I just wanted to let everyone know upfront! Babies have weird schedules lol :P I'm actually holding him right now so I'll try to post later when I can...cuteness overload! :wub:

Edited by BrightnessRadiant
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The possibility of an Elim jester soldier scares me quite a bit. 

Also guys try not to always use cytonics on people who you are publicly suspicious of, because then the Elims can play around your cytonics more easily. 

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So if there's no PMs, then virtually all the discussion will have to be in the main thread. ("Obviously," I said, knocking my head against the nearest hard surface after re-reading that.) So if we have suspicions, we should probably only voice them in reference to the lynch and if you're actually suspicious or have evidence. If you have suspicions retaining to a role and say it, then the Aliens have more information. And if you don't have actual suspicion or evidence, and you're right, they won't get lynched and they will have suspicion against you.

That's probably wrong, but it's my thought on the matter and trying to add to the discussion.

Another matter, a tactic that the Aliens could use for their kill is either having one person do it until they die so we get less information but can narrow it down faster, or rotate it among them, which gives is more information and targets over a longer time period. Again, just my thoughts on the matter.

P.S. BR. That's awesome! I'd ask you to give your sister a "Congratulations!" from the people on the Shard, but that might be a little creepy... Maybe babies make everything less creepy though?

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@Seonid :P maybe

@Ecthelion III *gasp* this isn't looking good :lol: hehe

So, as Sart clarified this is a day cycle so we should be talking about the lynch rn right? As I've said before, "ugh, day one lynches" -_- @Paranoid King why shouldn't people use the role actions? Cytonics seem a little risky to me. I'm not really sure we should be using them until we suspect someone cuz if we target a villager who's just trying to help the village by using their role actions then we'll kill off all our good roles right?

I do have a question about the soldier role? @Sart 

Quote

If you are lynched, and the person you guarded against voted for you, then you will automatically kill that player as you die.

How does this work seeing as this is a night action? How can you guard against someone who's voting for you? I think I'm just missing something here?

Edit: ninja'd by @Bridge Boy ..thanks! I'll tell her! She actually just joined the Shard a couple weeks ago as @Evenstar Rose :P

Edited by BrightnessRadiant
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DR-0ID stared stoically at everyone in the small room. Or facility, or whatever. Most of them were just standing around. He decided to join them.

...

...

...

Inactive for 30 minutes. Entering sleep mode.

He quickly wiggled his arm. He was going to do something in a moment, anyways. Aaaany second now.

...

Inactive for -

"Yeah, yeah. I get it."

...

"Say, do the airlocks still work while this place is in lockdown mode? Because if not, this place is going to stink in a few days. Because of the bodies."

...

"I mean, it won't bother me, because I can just shut that off, but you guys might have problems."

...

"Can you shut off your senses with cytonics? Because that would make it easy..."

...

"For how many people are in here, it's really quiet.

...

...

"Oops, I had my audio muted. Sorry about that."

---

2 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

  @Paranoid King, why shouldn't people use the role actions? Cytonics seem a little risky to me. I'm not really sure we should be using them until we suspect someone cuz if we target a villager who's just trying to help the village by using their role actions then we'll kill off all our good roles right?

 

The two things cytonics kill are role-based actions and the elim kill.

Role based actions aren't that useful anyways, so if the village loses them, it won't be a huge loss

If everyone guards with cytonics, suddenly the Elim kill is super risky.

If everybody guards, the only thing that's lost is the elim kill. Villagers won't be killed by cytonics because everyone's using cytonics.

And we won't kill off all our good roles because nobody is using their good roles against a cytonic user. The only people who will be tempted to do so are the aliens, and they'll mostly target inactives if they do. Which is helpful for the village anyways.

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Well, everyone has basically already said everything that needs to be said.

I'm just gonna add that we should be careful of who we trust, and try to keep our real suspicions on the down-low, so as not to alert the Aliens that we're onto them or that we have certain roles or whatever. Also, this will probably either end horribly or hilariously. I can't tell which is more likely.

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2 minutes ago, Paranoid King said:

The two things cytonics kill are role-based actions and the elim kill.

Role based actions aren't that useful anyways, so if the village loses them, it won't be a huge loss

If everyone guards with cytonics, suddenly the Elim kill is super risky.

If everybody guards, the only thing that's lost is the elim kill. Villagers won't be killed by cytonics because everyone's using cytonics.

And we won't kill off all our good roles because nobody is using their good roles against a cytonic user. The only people who will be tempted to do so are the aliens, and they'll mostly target inactives if they do. Which is helpful for the village anyways.

Ahhhhhhhhhh ok I get it, that makes sense ;)

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But we do still have the Scanner People. (Still can't remember what they're called.) Aren't they useful? If we're going off of only what's in the thread, some of those guys are seriously good actors. (I would know, I've been one before. (Self-important ego-raising.)) I'd rather not go willy-nilly. And your cytonics can still only target one person to defend against, (Right? I'm right on that, aren't I?) you might defend against someone and just be Alien-probed (Calling it that from now on. You can't stop me.) from someone they didn't suspect because it's the first cycle. At least in the beginning before we know more, aren't roles more important than the cytonics?

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I would propose the following: If you are planning on targeting someone with a role action, ask their permission first.  It does give the elims some info (less so if we have fake asks as well), but at least it should help prevent friendly fire, as well as give the village maximum information if you are killed as a result of the request.

Question for @Sart: Do we find out the manner of a character's death?

Also, I will likely be unable to post night 1 and day 2 under the new schedule; can I send in my action for night 1 before it starts?

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We have no way to coordinate fake requests though, so the Aliens would probably go with the first person to ask for permission. Meaning the first person to ask would probably get probed. Even if they were a fake, they wouldn't want to do something that would kill their own character like that. It's not a bad idea, but is very difficult with this system, and doesn't have enough failsafes.

And how does it give the village "maximum information" if they die? It tells them that somebody who could see the thread killed them. Unless at least 4-5 people requested, and only a specific person with an actual role died. And even then I'm not sure how, since you probably wouldn't ask the person "Can I protect you? Or add an extra vote on you?" So they still wouldn't know if it was fake or real. It has some possibility, but I just don't think it would work for this game.

As far as suspicions go, I'm currently leaning towards either PK or Yitzi. Both of them proposed plans that seemed plausible, but also seemed like they might hurt the village. Which could be a mistake, oooor they could be Alien spies here to probe us. For information. And other things. Maybe.

So just throwing those out there. I don't really believe in poke votes after I've been lynched for them before, but I will say those are my suspicions and if things stand as they are, I will probably vote on you before the day ends.

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Well, this creates an interesting paradox.

If all the villagers use their actions instead of cytonics, then there is no risk to either villagers or eliminators to using cytonics. But villagers do get whatever information comes from using their actions I suppose.

If all the villagers use cytonics instead of their actions, then there is also no risk of villagers dying, but there is a risk of eliminators dying, since I doubt the eliminators would pass up a kill.

The only case in which we risk some villagers being killed by accidental cytonics is if some people elect to use cytonics, but others use their actions.

 

But all of that actually isn't terrifically relevant, come to think of it. Roles like politician or cyto adept or (I think) even the soldier don't even risk being killed by cytonics to use their powers. So to all those people, I advise you basically decide to do whatever you believe is best for village.

As for powers that can result in dying to cytonics... Those powers are firebranding, UIB agent investigating, and alien murdering.

To the firebrands, I'd advise not to risk using your ability this early on, because honestly this early in the game, nobody is confident enough in a lynch to warrant vote manipulation.

To the UIB agents... Hm. This ability looks pretty useful, so it might be worth risking using it early on for the information. Early in the game, the risk of dying to cytonics is somewhat lower than what it will be later.

As for the aliens, well, I doubt they'd take my advice :P particularly because my advice would be to admit in-thread to being elims so we can lynch them

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@Bridge Boy they're called UIB agents lol I checked. :P as far as I know, cytonics can only target one person unless you're a cyto adept, which can target two players. 

So if we are just randomly selecting a player to guard against, the elims will still have a pretty good chance of getting a kill right? I keep forgetting that we are using cytonics to "target" a certain player to guard against instead of just using it as a regular protection for ourselves. 

So, then I'm back to thinking that at least the UIB agents should use their actions to start the game. Can they see alignment or just regular roles? I'm not sure because the aliens are listed as a role, and the UIB agents can see all roles so? @Sart another question for ya ;)

Soooooo yeah anyone else have thoughts on cytonics vs. actions?

I guess as far as voting goes I'm still lost for who to vote for :wacko:

Ninja'd by yitzi and BB cuz I had to take breaks while writing this post lol

@Yitzi2 doesn't that just leave the players who claim, open to be targeted by the elim kill? They won't be protecting themselves and the elims would know it. 

Edit: Ugh ninja'd by Drake as well lol

Edited by BrightnessRadiant
Grammar mistakes ;P
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59 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Well, this creates an interesting paradox.

If all the villagers use their actions instead of cytonics, then there is no risk to either villagers or eliminators to using cytonics. 

Here's how I see it:

  • The villagers need info. The elims need kills.
  • Cytonics stop info, but also stop kills.
  • An elim will never target another elim with cytonics.

 So if an elim uses cytonics, it just blocks the villager's info, and never stops the elim's kills. It is in their best interest to use cytonics at every opportunity.

So the elims will use cytonics as much as possible. If the villagers use cytonics too, the villagers get no info and the elims get no kills.

If, on the other hand, the villagers don't use cytonics, their info is limited, but the elim kill is unrestricted. The best strategy for both groups is to use cytonics as much as possible.

57 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

...at least the UIB agents should use their actions to start the game.

True, that. Hit 'em while you're not suspected.

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Warning: the following post attempts to apply tactics from an economics class I'm in to this game.

Extending PK's reasoning a step further, right now we're in what game theory (econ lingo for the study of competition) calls the Prisoner's Dilemma. Both sides have a dominant strategy to use Cytonics to defend from the other side, but the cost of both sides using Cytonics is the village taking on friendly fire (such as killing our own UIBs) while both sides lose players (like elim killers and PCOs) to the other's defenses. The ideal scenario would be that neither side uses Cytonics and so loses no players to the other side's defenses, but in that case each side would have an incentive to change their strategy and use Cytonics against the undefended other side. Game theory says that to escape the Prisoner's Dilemma, we either need to change the rules (impossible), impose a binding agreement to not use Cytonics (impossible), or play with these rules a large number of times until both sides implicitly reach an arrangement (impossible). Therefore, our best action is to play our dominant strategy-use Cytonics--and accept the friendly fire and death to enemy defenses that might result.

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Okay, so here is one I'd prepared earlier(and if Sart hadn't overslept, this would have been the first post in the game, so no complaining about people having already said this):

Time for a strategy and power discussion. I’ll first discuss Cytonics below, and the implications this has for the game. After that, I’ll quickly go through the various roles and give my opinions on them.

So, Cytonics. A power that doesn’t just protect you from a specific player, but that kills that player if he does try to do something to you. This is of course fantastic if you can take out an alien this way, but unfortunately it can also take out a village UIB agent, to given an example.

This has as a consequence that those with targeted roles (firebrand, UIB agent, PC Operator) need to be very careful with their actions. Likewise, those using their actions to protect themselves should be careful that they don’t accidentally end up killing an important villager (I’d say losing a UIB agent or PC is going to hurt the village a lot).

I’ve been trying to figure out a way that would minimize the risk of these roles getting taken out by a villager, but I haven’t really come up with anything yet. I’ll list what I’ve come up with below, as well as the reasons why I think they are either stupid, or don’t really have a net gain. If anyone has a better solution, I’d urge you to share it with the village. Even if you only have some half-formed ideas, sharing them (like I’m doing here) could allow others to expand on them and refine them.

  • First, the trivial solution is to have the UIB agents and PC operators role-claim, and just general agree that no one protects against them. This is of course an incredibly stupid thing to do, as it also gives the elims a list of high-value targets that they should kill and/or protect against. Seriously, don’t do this!
  • The second idea would be to have the village simply agree to not use cytonics on certain cycles so that alignment scanners can do their thing. This would allow the scanners to do their job (unless they hit an alien), but it also means that the elims will  be able to kill without risk.
  • Another possible solution is that every villager openly declares who they will be warding against. This turns this ability from active protection into a more passive deterrent, but it might give us a way to pinpoint elims as we see who does and doesn’t get targeted by elims in relation to their defenses. It might also give the elims a way to try and triangulate the UIB agent(s) and PC operators, however (and it means they run a far smaller risk at getting killed by defences).

In all honesty, I don’t particularly like any of my two actual solutions enough to propose using it over just trusting in luck and good judgement on the part of the villagers for who to target with cytonics. I’ve mostly put them out here in case someone gets inspired by one of them and manages to turn them into something workable.

Now, on to the roles:

  • Firebrand: Remember that your vote is placed during the night, so it might be useful for you to start discussion about who to lynch early so you can target this ability more precisely. Do be careful that you don’t stand out as constantly starting discussion early, as that might result in you getting targeted by aliens.
  • Soldier: Just make careful judgement about who to take down with you. 
  • Politician: This is potentially a very useful information gathering tool, so make sure to use it. If you notice people warding against you often, while you aren’t under any suspicion, it might be indicative that they are aliens worrying that you are an agent or PC operator. It’s not proof in and of itself, but it could give you an indication of who to trust and or distrust. I’d also recommend that you try to find some way to ensure the information you’ve gotten this way is preserved if you get killed. Unfortunately, PM’s are not allowed, so that way is out. I’m sure you are smart enough to think of other methods, however.
  • Adept: As mentioned before, exercise good judgement in targeting your wards.
  • UIB agent: I’d recommend that you do try and be careful with who you target, because scanning someone that is very suspicious of you could result in a quick death. Like the Politician, you should look into a way to share what you’ve found out without revealing yourself, if this is at all possible.
  • PC Operator:  I’ve said this before with the soldier, but it bears repeating: be very careful with who you target with kills, as someone just using his kill ability because he can is a threat, rather than an asset to the village.

Now, some reactions to various posts:

5 hours ago, Paranoid King said:

 

Role based actions aren't that useful anyways, so if the village loses them, it won't be a huge loss

 

Two of the role-based actions are kills (PC operator) and role-scannner (UIB Agent), and since the alien is listed as a role, this is probably an alignment scanner (waiting on Sart's confirmation). These are very powerful and useful roles, and just ignoring them is a bad idea in my opinion.

5 hours ago, Yitzi2 said:

I would propose the following: If you are planning on targeting someone with a role action, ask their permission first.  It does give the elims some info (less so if we have fake asks as well), but at least it should help prevent friendly fire, as well as give the village maximum information if you are killed as a result of the request.

The big problem with this is that this gives the elims very useful information. If someone where to ask permission to use an action against someone else, the elims would know that the person requesting the permission has both an important role (the only one that would be asking for permission is the UIB agent), and that this person has no defenses up, as actions replace defenses. This would be an incredibly efficient way to lose all our scanners, and I'm honestly a bit surprised you missed this, Yitzi.

(and yeah, this has been said by a couple of others already, but it bears repeating)

3 hours ago, Paranoid King said:

Here's how I see it:

  • The villagers need info. The elims need kills.
  • Cytonics stop info, but also stop kills.
  • An elim will never target another elim with cytonics.

 So if an elim uses cytonics, it just blocks the villager's info, and never stops the elim's kills. It is in their best interest to use cytonics at every opportunity.

So the elims will use cytonics as much as possible. If the villagers use cytonics too, the villagers get no info and the elims get no kills.

If, on the other hand, the villagers don't use cytonics, their info is limited, but the elim kill is unrestricted. The best strategy for both groups is to use cytonics as much as possible.

True, that. Hit 'em while you're not suspected.

Cytonics only protect against the actions by a single player, so it won't stop all kills. On the same front, it won't stop all info actions either, but it's a bigger risk to the village, as the loss of an agent could result in all his gathered information getting lost with him.

Like BB, I'm a bit suspicious of PK and Yitzi right now, just because their suggestions seem to be pushing the village in a direction that would be detrimental for it (as important roles get either found out by the elims (yitzi) or get ignored (PK)). However, these two also often come with good ideas and insights later in the game, so I'm somewhat hesitant to kill them on a C1 suspicion. I'll have to think about this some more.

@Sart Would you be willing to comment on how densely spread the roles are? This game doesn't seem to be role-madness(apart from everyone having cytonics, I guess), but that's about all I know at this point.

Aliens? Bah, racist nonsense! Tom was about to voice his opinion on the bigot on the other side of those speakers, but caught himself at the last moment. Everyone else in the room seemed quite on edge, so sharing this opinion might not be the best for his long-term health.

Tom looked around the room again. Some of the people in the room with him might be human-supremacist extremists, intend on framing the peaceful aliens for a terrible act of terrorism. He wasn't planning on allowing this to happen, but how could he find them? A thought struck him. Because these people would be trying to frame the aliens, they would obviously be trying to behave like they where actually non-human entities. So to find them, he'd have to find people that where pretending to be aliens. This shouldn't be difficult at all. 

Edited by randuir
spelling and wording
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Okay after thinking it over, I've decided to vote on yitzi for now because he's probably my biggest suspicion...which for a day one lynch isn't saying much :P (I believe that Day 1 lynches are necessary even if they are incredibly difficult and frustrating.) I just don't see why a villager would think that people with roles should reveal themselves in the thread by asking permission to scan another player. Doing so would make these players vulnerable to the elim kill that cycle with zero chance of protection. I've already pointed out that I didn't think this was a good idea, so I've decided to actually place a vote to go with it.

@Yitzi2 I don't wanna vote without giving you a chance to defend yourself.

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Okay, well, so far, it looks like PK and Yitzi are the top suspects. Personally, I'm not terribly suspicious of either. PK has posted quite a few times, which helps discussion, and Yitzi made a less than stellar plan. In my experience, villagers voice bad plans more often than eliminators, since eliminators want to make sure their plans are good(though not too good :P) to get credibility and trust from the village.

Also, I noticed Brightness' question about Soldiers. The way I read it, the Soldier targets someone during the Night, and then if that player votes to lynch them, they die. So it's a bit of a shot in the dark, unless that player has been constantly voicing suspicion of the Soldier or something.

Anyways, I'm gonna put my vote on Ecthelion, since he hasn't really posted any actual game thoughts yet. What are your thoughts on the mechanics for this game? I'd also like to hear if you've got any opinions about PK or Yitzi.

Vote tally:

Ecthelion(2): PK, Lopen
Brightness(1): Seonid
Yitzi(1): Brightness

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@TheMightyLopen mkay that would make sense thanks :D

I'm not overly suspicious of yitzi, but I'm never really that suspicious of anyone on day 1 so yeah...my votes just there for now for lack of anything more suspiciourous :P

Gonna edit in some RP in a bit since my nephew is finally asleep again, but if I lay him down he'll probably wake up and cry so I'm gonna sit here holding him with one arm and writing RP with my free hand lolz..no sleep for Brightness Auntie:lol:

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Raven stared at the giant bunker doors. This would not be a good time for someone to realize they had a fear of enclosed spaces, because it looked they were going to be in here for a while. 

She'd been unlucky enough to have been on her way back from the restroom when the announcement had come over the loud speakers. There was no way she could've gotten out of the base in time. She still couldn't fathom that they were under attack from aliens. All of the other races seemed so peaceful compared to humans. If this is some kind of hoax, I'm gonna kick somebody. 

She was supposed to be on a vacation of sorts. This was her first trip to space for months, and she didn't want it ruined by anyone, not aliens or humans playing a juvenile prank on everyone.

She'd just have to get to the bottom of this quickly, so she could go back to enjoying her trip.

Edited by BrightnessRadiant
added RP
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Soo... looks like Ecth will be lynched on first day... nothing unusual, almost tradition :D

Sooo... what to say... hmm. Honestly I like PK's idea about not using target roles and just using cytonics. This just looks like best idea cause use of cytonics can backfire to village and elims equally. If everyone will just use cytonics it will turn this game into usual roleless game(cause I think elims will be reluctant with use of their target roles if we will decide to use only cytonics) and just think what will happen in roleless game if give to every villager power like cytonics, it will be some kind of overpower on village side.

Also cause people don't like my gut reads when I say them late in game I will say what my gut says right now.

I'm suspecting: Ecth, Brightness, Seonid, Striker.

Reasons for suspicions? No, of course no reasons... it's just first day. 

I will wait little bit with vote, cause I want to see what Ecth will say... of course if he will say something. If not then I will just vote for him.

I think that all... for now.

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I've just come up with a potential way in which the role-scanning ability might be employed somewhat safely, if it does indeed also function to figure out aliens (otherwise I don't think it's worth the bother). If the village would vote each cycle on who should be scanned, then that person would be expected to not taken actions to take out whoever would do so. Since everyone knows who is going to be scanned, but not who will do the scanning there is information to be gained if the scanner ends up dead, while at the same time it protects the UIB agent.

The big risk is that with this system, the elims would also know of at least one person that would probably be undefended. If they do decide to go after this person each cycle though, any irregularities will be quite obvious and can be used (hey, they didn't kill the guy we wanted to scan this cycle, maybe that means that that guys is an elim?).

So, opinions anyone? Did I overlook something that breaks this system?

Edited by randuir
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9 hours ago, Bridge Boy said:

We have no way to coordinate fake requests though, so the Aliens would probably go with the first person to ask for permission. Meaning the first person to ask would probably get probed. Even if they were a fake, they wouldn't want to do something that would kill their own character like that. It's not a bad idea, but is very difficult with this system, and doesn't have enough failsafes.

And how does it give the village "maximum information" if they die? It tells them that somebody who could see the thread killed them. Unless at least 4-5 people requested, and only a specific person with an actual role died. And even then I'm not sure how, since you probably wouldn't ask the person "Can I protect you? Or add an extra vote on you?" So they still wouldn't know if it was fake or real. It has some possibility, but I just don't think it would work for this game.

As far as suspicions go, I'm currently leaning towards either PK or Yitzi. Both of them proposed plans that seemed plausible, but also seemed like they might hurt the village. Which could be a mistake, oooor they could be Alien spies here to probe us. For information. And other things. Maybe.

So just throwing those out there. I don't really believe in poke votes after I've been lynched for them before, but I will say those are my suspicions and if things stand as they are, I will probably vote on you before the day ends.

-Sacrificial plays are quite feasible for village players, since they win as long as their team wins.

-By "maximum information", I meant that we know whom that individual investigated or whatever.

-Your alternative seems to be that we just throw around role actions, possibly leading to important roles being killed early on.  I feel much the same about you as you say about me and PK.

I would, however, like to hear from everybody else as to which approach (no special actions, special actions without warning, special actions with permission and fake requests) we should take, as having different people doing different things would probably be worse than any of them.

9 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

Well, this creates an interesting paradox.

If all the villagers use their actions instead of cytonics, then there is no risk to either villagers or eliminators to using cytonics. But villagers do get whatever information comes from using their actions I suppose.

-Some roles' actions are based in using cytonics rather than instead of using cytonics.

8 hours ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

 

@Yitzi2 doesn't that just leave the players who claim, open to be targeted by the elim kill? They won't be protecting themselves and the elims would know it.

Not if it's a fake request.

7 hours ago, Elenion said:

Warning: the following post attempts to apply tactics from an economics class I'm in to this game.

Extending PK's reasoning a step further, right now we're in what game theory (econ lingo for the study of competition) calls the Prisoner's Dilemma. Both sides have a dominant strategy to use Cytonics to defend from the other side, but the cost of both sides using Cytonics is the village taking on friendly fire (such as killing our own UIBs) while both sides lose players (like elim killers and PCOs) to the other's defenses. The ideal scenario would be that neither side uses Cytonics and so loses no players to the other side's defenses, but in that case each side would have an incentive to change their strategy and use Cytonics against the undefended other side. Game theory says that to escape the Prisoner's Dilemma, we either need to change the rules (impossible), impose a binding agreement to not use Cytonics (impossible), or play with these rules a large number of times until both sides implicitly reach an arrangement (impossible). Therefore, our best action is to play our dominant strategy-use Cytonics--and accept the friendly fire and death to enemy defenses that might result.

The only way the village takes on friendly fire is if only the UIBs use active actions.  This actually cannot be a Prisoner's Dilemma between the sides, since this is a zero-sum game and the Prisoner's Dilemma doesn't apply to zero-sum games.

What this actually is (and you might get to it eventually in your class) is a type of coordination problem for the villagers.

@BrightnessRadiant @randuir You raise good points against an "only ask if you're going to take an important action" approach.  However, I mentioned (and am now confident that if this is implemented we should have) fake asks, where you use cytonics but ask someone for permission to target them.  That way, the elims don't know whom to target because most such requests do not actually indicate an important role.

1 hour ago, randuir said:

I've just come up with a potential way in which the role-scanning ability might be employed somewhat safely, if it does indeed also function to figure out aliens (otherwise I don't think it's worth the bother). If the village would vote each cycle on who should be scanned, then that person would be expected to not taken actions to take out whoever would do so. Since everyone knows who is going to be scanned, but not who will do the scanning there is information to be gained if the scanner ends up dead, while at the same time it protects the UIB agent.

The big risk is that with this system, the elims would also know of at least one person that would probably be undefended. If they do decide to go after this person each cycle though, any irregularities will be quite obvious and can be used (hey, they didn't kill the guy we wanted to scan this cycle, maybe that means that that guys is an elim?).

So, opinions anyone? Did I overlook something that breaks this system?

I liked it a lot at first, but then realized: That way, the elims then know when one of theirs was scanned.  Without PMs, that means there's no way to turn that scan into a lynch without the elims having a pretty good idea of who the scanners are.

EDIT: Regarding your other ideas: Role-claims are, as you said, a bad idea (and fake role-claims mean the elims can role-claim as well, and still have an idea).

Declaring who you're warding against pretty much eliminates the anti-alien benefit of the cytonics (since someone else can send in the kill).

Having specific "no cytonics" days for scanning is an interesting idea, but that really just boils down to a compromise between "don't use cytonics at all" and "use only cytonics" and is likely to be in between the two in terms of benefit.

Edited by Yitzi2
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