15 posts in this topic

So, this is actually a rather small post, but I feel it is important.

 

Kaladin, as far as we've seen him, seems very honorable, always doing the right thing, and never really breaking the rules. He seems a bit too honorable, and he attracted an Honorspren.

 

WoR spoiler

Shallan is a liar. She killed her father, she lied about it, she was going to steal from Jasnah, but she is also curious, drawing pictures and pursuing knowledge for the sake of knowledge, and she attracted a Cryptic, aka liespren?

 

This seems a little too similar to be a coincidence. Are the Nahel-bonding spren attracted to those similar in personality to them? Or, and this is an interesting thought, do they manipulate the person they plan on bonding to and change their personality, their intent?

 

Syl confirms that she was following Kaladin since before he even joined Amaram's army, around the time he volunteered to go with his brother to defend him. Seems honorable.
 

WoR spoiler

Shallan's Cryptic confirms that it has been following her since she was very young, back when she used her Shardblade to kill someone (I think it was her mother? maybe a servant?) Seems that since then, she has had to lie to cover it up.

Edited by cris34b
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It is largely believed that each type of spren is attracted by the embodiment of the ideals of their associated KR order.  Thus Syl was attracted (most notably) by Kaladin's desire to protect others.

 

Edit: I think it is premature to call Shallan a liar.  The only deception we have seen from her so far is that her father is dead, not ill, and her deception of Jasnah in order to steal the soulcaster.  Each of these deceptions was undertaken in an effort to save her family.  This does not yet qualify her as a liar in my view.

Edited by Shardlet
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Agreed.  In addition, Shallan doesn't like to lie.  She was beating herself up over it for basically all of tWoK.  She's a talented liar, and more importantly she's clever, which is what it takes to be a good liar.  Cryptics seem to go for the clever thing more than the liar thing.(Note his appreciation for a good lie.)

 

I do agree that the Spren look for and magnify the intended characteristic though.

 

And I'm not sure you have Syl's bonding period correct.  I think it's more after he was made a squad leader.

Edited by Aminar
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I got the impression Syl was implying that she had memories of Kaladin from right near his beginning in Amaram's army, but I'd have to re-read to figure that out, and I don't feel like going through that thousand page monster atm, so I'll agree to disagree.

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http://books.google.com/books?id=LN_a49HEpmwC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=You+used+to+be+vibrant+Syl+Kaladin&source=bl&ots=x8uTh1ilwt&sig=7D8BH5UXVF0xxv2fyCQ5lZeADpg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=41D0UuW_IYnlyQHdm4CoDg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA

I believe this has the relevent quote. She cites how many people looked up to him, but the furthest back she goes is when he was a squad leader(at least that's the impression I got from it.)

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I expect Honesty to be a big part of Shallan's character arc.

 

http://coppermind.net/wiki/Ten_Essences

 

As you can see Jes matches Kaladin perfectly (Protecting, Leading).  Shash is Creative, Honest.  I expect Shallan will have to come clean about her past if she is to join the Knights Radiant.

 

Also isn't there a WoB where he says Cryptics are truthspren?

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Agreed.  In addition, Shallan doesn't like to lie.  She was beating herself up over it for basically all of tWoK.  She's a talented liar, and more importantly she's clever, which is what it takes to be a good liar.  Cryptics seem to go for the clever thing more than the liar thing.(Note his appreciation for a good lie.)

 

 

I got the feeling that Cryptics don't like direct lies.  They seem to like deception caused by using true statements so that the truth is misinterpreted.  At least that is the impression I took away about Pattern's comments on "True Lies."

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Also isn't there a WoB where he says Cryptics are truthspren?

 

Not quite.  Back when we didn't know what to call them, besides "symbolheads", Brandon was asked about it and he suggested  "truthspren" because did not want to reveal the canon name yet.  It was a while later that we learned that they refer to themselves as "Cryptics".

 

WoR spoiler:

If you want their *blank*spren name though, that is "liespren".

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You're right. Also, I noticed something in WoR.

 

WoR Spoiler.

Jasnah had to summon the weird knight and stand her ground against her spren when she first met it. Shallan had to be clever and avoid looking at her spren until she was ready to capture the image quickly to draw it. These both seem like tests, though I'm not sure what Kaladin's test was. Probably something he did honorably back in Amaram's army. Maybe the Spren choose a person they like, and then the first test isn't even the first ideal, it is just a sort of "Will we be compatible" type of thing? Opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

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Turning down the Shardblade seems likely as a test.

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I think people are placing a bit too much emphasis on the "Honest" attribute, which is Secondary to the Lightweavers, and not enough on "Creative" which is Primary. Shallan is clearly a very creative person from the very first time we meet her, not only in her drawing (which could be argued is not creative at all, since she uses a supernatural memory to draw what are as close to photographs as possible) but also in her thoughts, her word choices (the constant clever jokes, etc), her approach to problems. That attribute, I think, is what attracts the Cryptics.

 

The Honest part is something she struggles with and is conflicted about, just as Kaladin is conflicted over Leading bridge four. I suspect that her Second Ideal will relate to Creativity rather than Honesty.

 

As for the Cryptics/liespren....on a superficial level, you could think of them like Aes Sedai (i.e. they always tell the truth.....mwuahaha!). On a deeper level though, I believe that "true lies" to them are what we would call art. Words, pictures, shapes that aren't literally true, but speak to some deeper allegorical truth. Fits pretty well with Creative/Honest.

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To add a few more thoughts ...

 

I don't think for example just by being a honorable person one attracts a honorspren - I think one important requirement is the broken soul - broken because of the conflict of that attribute. E.g. you need to be in a situation that truly tests your attribute. Just being "nice" won't cut it.

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I always thought of it as a mutual gain?

The spren take something from the humans and become more 'Alive' (don't know a better way to describe it) and humans become more powerful e.g. KR abilaties..

 

In the Wheel Of Time (i know BS just finished off RJ book) working with the one power lengthens your life do you think absorbing stormlight has a similar effect?

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I always thought of it as a mutual gain?

The spren take something from the humans and become more 'Alive' (don't know a better way to describe it) and humans become more powerful e.g. KR abilaties..

 

WoR spoilers:

Doubtful that it's a mutual gain. Syl seemed like she was having a lovely time in Shadesmar, and she only needs the bond when she goes to the Physical. So... mutual gain, but only for spren that like traveling?

 

 

In the Wheel Of Time (i know BS just finished off RJ book) working with the one power lengthens your life do you think absorbing stormlight has a similar effect?

 

I've speculated that before. I think it's a good theory.

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I kind of winced at Shallan's confusion about "true lies" given that she described her letter in WoK as "a lie made of truths"

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