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There is an alternate version of your 4. Harmony tries to balance the ruin and preservation that exists in the world. If there is an earthquake, then he will make the buildings stronger, so they are partially ruined, partially preserved. If something has stood for thousands of years however, he might send an earthquake to shake things up a bit, but not completely. Thus if some entity wee to start trying to ruin things, he would have more actions towards preservation than ruin. On the other hand if things never change, he might shake things up.

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Or Harmony probably invested the unbalanced Ruin power in the people of Scadrial 

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Harmony is probably turning the unbalanced Ruin into atium, and then giving that to Marsh, to keep him alive as his emissary for 300+ years through compounding.

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I think there is a case that the two shards do not yet see themselves as one entity yet but the longer they are together the more they will. Harmony has only had them for 300 years in the second era; in terms of the time scale of shards that’s tiny. We’ve seen that objects take time to understand that they have changed in the universe ie Dalinar using his powers to fix things or Renarin only being able to heal within a given time frame or the seals on Sel. I could go on but it seams pretty clear that things take time in the Cosmere to understand that they have changed. I think it’s unsurprising that Ruin and Preservation are still Waring with in Harmony but the longer they are together the less the powers will see each other as separate entities and the more agency Sazed will have. Adonalsium held all 16 of the shards but all those opposing shards didn’t imobalise him because they saw themselves as one entity only after the shattering did they become opposing. 

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Quote

Questioner
*asks for a "future quote of Harmony"*

Brandon Sanderson
This is clever, I've never had this before.

Questioner
I wondered whether I could challenge you to do it...

Brandon Sanderson
*writes* "It is yours."
I don't know if that will actually be the quote, but you can come ask me after Mistborn 9?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6531

This WoB has me wondering if Harmony will purposely divide his shards, and share one with Wax, enabling Sazed to act. 

What I imagine is, two mixed shards, with bits of each other in them, like a yin/yang symbol. 

But, if this is for Mistborn 9, then we might have a while to wait, and it would be for someone unknown. 

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3 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

This WoB has me wondering if Harmony will purposely divide his shards, and share one with Wax, enabling Sazed to act. 

What I imagine is, two mixed shards, with bits of each other in them, like a yin/yang symbol. 

But, if this is for Mistborn 9, then we might have a while to wait, and it would be for someone unknown. 

Oh no...not Mistborn 9...that's so far away!

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I believe that harmony is a totally new intent. Just as you can't get atium or lerasium from harmoiunum (citation needed) you can't measure this new shard by what went into it. In chemistry when Sodium, a metal that explodes on contact with water, and chloride: a posionous gas mix they create table salt that we eat. I think we can apply the same logic hear. 

I haven't properly researched WoB for this so correct me if I'm wrong

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36 minutes ago, Lightblood said:

I believe that harmony is a totally new intent. Just as you can't get atium or lerasium from harmoiunum (citation needed) you can't measure this new shard by what went into it. In chemistry when Sodium, a metal that explodes on contact with water, and chloride: a posionous gas mix they create table salt that we eat. I think we can apply the same logic hear. 

I haven't properly researched WoB for this so correct me if I'm wrong

The intents of Ruin and Preservation both still exist, and war within Sazed creating the near paralysis he experiences in his own words. 

From his letter to Hoid. 

Quote

I am the least equipped, of all, to aid you in this endeavor. I am finding that the powers I hold are in such conflict that the most simple of actions can be difficult.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Sazed's two Shards do not "cancel out", as Brandon said that it would like being pulled by two huge gravitational tides. You can get to a way that you aren't instantly ripped apart, but that doesn't mean you don't feel it. (When asked what effect the Shards would have on Sazed, Brandon said, "Read Alloy of Law to find out".)

source

 

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I found this recently but honestly hadnt found a relevant conversation to bring it up, so a Harmony necro-thread seems as good as any.  No clue what it means, but I feel like it means something:

Quote

People are discord.  You all act differently and think differently.  Nothing else is like that -- animals act alike, and all spren are, in a sense, virtually the same individual.  There's harmony in that.  But not in you -- it seems that no two of you can agree on anything.  All the world does at it is supposed to, except for humans.  Maybe that's why you so often want to kill each other. 

  ---Sylphrena, WotK Ch. 17

 

Thoughts?

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I've seen arguments that Sazed could either be Discord or Harmony...as he currently is,imagine being pulled very hard in two opposite directions. Hard to do anything?

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2 hours ago, Ookla the Youngin said:

I've seen arguments that Sazed could either be Discord or Harmony...as he currently is,imagine being pulled very hard in two opposite directions. Hard to do anything?

It can certainly happen. Whether he is currently Harmony or  Discord in since Era 2 up is another question tho. 

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10 hours ago, goody153 said:

It can certainly happen. Whether he is currently Harmony or  Discord in since Era 2 up is another question tho. 

I hadnt seen that one, though I knew there'd been a lot of discussion about Harmony vs Discord being a matter of his own interpretation. That's why it struck me as signficant that Syl was using those terms specifically when trying to articulate the differences between mortals and spren. 

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Since we are on the topic, I've had an idea in my head with no good place to bring it up for a little while. I wonder if the conflict with Sazed is that he is one vessel holding 2 opposing shard, as opposed to one vessel holding a doubly powerful combined shard with a single intent of Harmony. It seems like, if possible, that would be the best way to reconcile the differences between the two. A cosmic level compromise, if you will.

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22 hours ago, Solant said:

Since we are on the topic, I've had an idea in my head with no good place to bring it up for a little while. I wonder if the conflict with Sazed is that he is one vessel holding 2 opposing shard, as opposed to one vessel holding a doubly powerful combined shard with a single intent of Harmony. It seems like, if possible, that would be the best way to reconcile the differences between the two. A cosmic level compromise, if you will.

Theoretically, the addition of another Shard could warp Harmony's Intent in such a way that the opposing forces (brought on by the raw dichotomy of Ruin vs Preservation) aren't a thing anymore and could focus themselves into one goal, allowing Sazed to access all of the power of the three Shards. Now, the issue is what Shard would work for that, even theoretically, even disregarding the issues with getting another Shard into the mix:

Cultivation might work, since he could choose to Preserve, Ruin, or Cultivate certain things at different times, but Preservation's influence would be weak, since Cultivation is more like what Ruin could be about.

Odium wouldn't work so well, because he'd just be really angry but unable to do anything about it and might slide into being Discord as a way of pettily taking his anger out that the people of Scadrial dare mess with his ideal area and not live up to his goals for them.

Honor would likely just lock him in place in different ways.

Endowment would let him gift people with chunks of Investiture at will, but that's efficient enough on Scadrial as is.

Autonomy might work, if it wasn't for the fact that Autonomy is one of the ones that the Vessel's perception of the Intent warps the intent on its own, so it could just lead to Sazed withdrawing entirely. 

Dominion and Devotion both have issues with Sazed doing good things (blind loyalty isn't necessarily good, but neither is a multi-Shard conquering the Cosmere).

I feel like I'm missing a Shard. Basically, there is no outright good combination. The solution is probably to let Harmony find his balance, either by holding the Shards long enough that it's no longer Ruin and Preservation at all, just Harmony (if that's even possible on any sort of timescale, I don't know how perception affects something like that) or for Sazed to find someway to strike a balance/find a sweet spot in the gravitational pulls that allows him to function.

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Remember that all shards in a multishard like harmony kinda has equal influence with the vessel(basically Sazed is stuck between two gravitational pull). So while theoretically it could make Sazed so much more active than possible, it could also make him really inconsistent as hell(we could possibly see the worst shard ever) or worse even more restrained with a third shard

Edited by goody153
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@Invocation I very much disagree.

I feel adding another intent would just serve to limit him further. 

Sazed's Shards are merging, slowly. I think the only way for "Harmony" to exist in truth is time. An unbelievable amount of time. 

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17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Invocation I very much disagree.

I feel adding another intent would just serve to limit him further. 

Sazed's Shards are merging, slowly. I think the only way for "Harmony" to exist in truth is time. An unbelievable amount of time. 

That is quite possibly accurate towards the limitation, and the merging is why I had the thing about the balance + perception after my list of hypothetical tri-Shards

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My personal theory is that in Sanderson's original plan, at the end of each trilogy, the shards would be passed on to a new vessel. So Harmony would, by tradition, change hands over time - with each change slowly changing the shards/shard and the vessel over time. Every time they've affected their vessel to the point they can't act, they're passed on.

This fits with their past too. Leras and Ati used their fortune-sight to make long term plans, with the whole of Leras's plan centered on his self-sacrifice.

So, it was Sazed at the end of the first trilogy. He might feel that the shards affect him too much and pass on the shards and his atleast some of his cosmere knowledge to the next wielder at the end of the original era 2 (now 3?). Maybe he'd do it because he'll feel outdated, that the world had changed too much for his frame of reference, and that a more "current" vessel would be able to guide the world forward a bit better. 

Feels Sanderson-y.

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On 12/29/2018 at 10:32 PM, TheFoxQR said:

My personal theory is that in Sanderson's original plan, at the end of each trilogy, the shards would be passed on to a new vessel. So Harmony would, by tradition, change hands over time - with each change slowly changing the shards/shard and the vessel over time. Every time they've affected their vessel to the point they can't act, they're passed on.

This fits with their past too. Leras and Ati used their fortune-sight to make long term plans, with the whole of Leras's plan centered on his self-sacrifice.

So, it was Sazed at the end of the first trilogy. He might feel that the shards affect him too much and pass on the shards and his atleast some of his cosmere knowledge to the next wielder at the end of the original era 2 (now 3?). Maybe he'd do it because he'll feel outdated, that the world had changed too much for his frame of reference, and that a more "current" vessel would be able to guide the world forward a bit better. 

Feels Sanderson-y.

Assuming that the shards continue to fuse together, I'm down. Otherwise, I think it would throw me off too much.

 

That being said, I think that Sazed thinks of himself as a protector of this world at this point, and the chance that he would willingly drop his shards is unlikely. Maybe he will be forced to by whatever happens at the end of TLM.

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57 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

That being said, I think that Sazed thinks of himself as a protector of this world at this point, and the chance that he would willingly drop his shards is unlikely. Maybe he will be forced to by whatever happens at the end of TLM.

Per this WoB, I think it's safe to say that Sazed will continue to hold both shards until at least Mistborn 9.

Quote

Questioner

*asks for a "future quote of Harmony"*

Brandon Sanderson

This is clever, I've never had this before.

Questioner

I wondered whether I could challenge you to do it...

Brandon Sanderson

*writes* "It is yours."

I don't know if that will actually be the quote, but you can come ask me after Mistborn 9?

source

That's reliant on my belief though, that under a different Vessel, the Shards would not make "Harmony." 

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Per this WoB, I think it's safe to say that Sazed will continue to hold both shards until at least Mistborn 9.

That's reliant on my belief though, that under a different Vessel, the Shards would not make "Harmony." 

I suppose it's probably safe to assume that he'll still be around, thanks to that WoB.

What I don't understand is how your belief factors into this?

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3 minutes ago, tmnsquirtle said:

I suppose it's probably safe to assume that he'll still be around, thanks to that WoB.

What I don't understand is how your belief factors into this?

It doesn't name Sazed. If you believe that Harmony would be Harmony regardless of Vessel, then there's no guarantee that WoB is about him. 

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Just like when Brandon has said Odium will survive SA5, but rayse might not.

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Since we know Odium fears Harmony, that Harmony is more powerful than Odium, something I've been wondering about is how Odium's fears are couched. How did he come to know about Harmony? Was there some sort of Cosmere equivalent of a disturbance in the force, a disturbance in the spiritual realm, perhaps? If there was, I am assuming that's how he may have known that a more powerful shard has ascended. When he became aware of Harmony was he able to discern Harmony's intent, or is that unknown to him (and part of what he fears)?

When talking about Harmony's intent it seems uncontested that he is in conflict and having difficulty acting. But I'm wondering if this is just because his focus is too narrow right now (he still seems to have retained a significant part of his humanity - thus, such a potential foible - from what we've seen in his interactions with Wax and from the letter in Oathbringer).

Maybe Odium asked Autonomy (who I am convinced is the "red haze" surrounding Scadrial) to interfere to keep Harmony's focus narrowly focused on Scadrial because if Harmony starts to look at the grander, cosmere, picture he may see a very unharmonious situation and start to meddle or challenge shards that he interprets as being the problem (i.e. Odium, possibly Autonomy) - maybe Autonomy has interceded in Scadrial of their own accord for the same reasons. It seems inevitable that, as Sazed becomes more and more subsumed into the intent of Harmony, his focus will start to venture out from the Scadrian system, and that is what promotes Scadrial's future space-faring.

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11 minutes ago, Aleph-Naught said:

How did he come to know about Harmony?

Ramifications in the Spiritual Realm, probably. Something as big as that will ripple everywhere.

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