On the concept of "Self splintering"

[Calderis]

I've seen this come up a few times recently, and what finally pushed me to make this topic was @Oversleep's WoB request and @Extesian's response in the stack exchange. 

So why exactly do we think that a Shard, after its vessel were killed, would self splinter? The only context I could see that in is after the clash of ruin and Preservation. 

When Vin struck at Ruin, both Shards were heavily damaged. After they dropped I can see that damage allowing the Shards to splinter, not due to any internal action, but the lack of a consciousness to guide and hold itself together.

If a shard were to lose its vessel, without its integrity being compromised why would it splinter? If it were that simple, why would Odium need to have dealt with D&D in the manner that he did? Why bother to stuff the Shards into the Cognitive specifically to avoid what we know a Shard without a vessel would do? Seek out a new vessel, and failing that develop sentience. 

Am I missing something? What reason is there to think that a shard that is whole, when dropped by its vessel, would automatically self splinter? 

[Blightsong]

The only thing i can think of is that people are mis-remembering this WoB.

[Yata]

The self-splintering is Just One of the possible outcomes.

While this is a cool outcome for Odium, the others are really Dangerous for him. So he puts effort to properly Splinter the Shard rather than hoping the Shard does what he would like.

 

We don't even know where the Self-splintering would release Investiture into

Edited June 2, 2017 by Yata

[Steeldancer]

38 minutes ago, Yata said:

The self-splintering is Just One of the possible outcomes.

While this is a cool outcome for Odium, the others are really Dangerous for him. So he puts effort to properly Splinter the Shard rather than hoping the Shard does what he would like.

 

Se don't even know where the Self-splintering would release Investiture into

I imagine self splintering would be fairly destructive. 

[Calderis]

But other than in extremely specific circumstances, why would it even happen?

[Blightsong]

Do we have WoB that self splintering even is an outcome?

[Yata]

59 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Do we have WoB that self splintering even is an outcome?

Yes I could try to find It.

But basically It says that if a Shard is Vesselless for too long. It could indipendently try to find a new Vessel, develop a sentence of Its own or auto-splinter itself.

[Blightsong]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Yes I could try to find It.

But basically It says that if a Shard is Vesselless for too long. It could indipendently try to find a new Vessel, develop a sentence of Its own or auto-splinter itself.

I think you are misremembering the below WoB.

 

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2016

Herald Washington Library Center-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

So we know that you can’t just have someone--if someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can’t just pop and go ‘oh look, I can now do Allomancy or now do Surgebinding’. What about Breath? Could somebody give Breath--could they still get the benefits--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, good question. Yes you can, actually. Breath, once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you--your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

QUESTION

So you could Awaken?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You could Awaken. If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It’s the easiest of magics to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

QUESTION

[garbled]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you’ve seen characters do this.

QUESTION

[garbled]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- the ones who aren’t interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? You don’t need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I’ve [written] them so that each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it’s stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they’re keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection--mostly Connection. So that means you can’t do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they’re drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they’re end-neutral, like Breath is, and don’t need any extra power.

TAGS

breath, aondor, devotion, dominion, Dor, odium, cognitive realm, identity, connection,

Edited June 2, 2017 by Blightsong

[Calderis]

I guess all I really want from this thread is to try find the WoB that people got this idea from. I've seen self splintering mentioned many times and it never made sense to me.

The idea that one of the largest pockets of investiture possible in the Cosmere would self destruction for no reason seems ludicrous.

I understand the idea of a Shard so damaged that it can't hold together breaking. I could even understand an intent likes Ruin, that seeks natural entropy, doing this to itself. But in most circumstances it seems to be counter to what we know of the Shards. 

[dashardie]

I think the original idea for "self splintering" comes from the fact that on Nalthis, the Divine Breath are effectively Splinters of Endowment; she splinters off a piece of her own Investiture to create a Returned. Originally when Adonalsium was on/created Roshar, He/She/It also Splintered off pieces of Investiture to create Spren such as the Stormfather/Rider of Storms and Cucicesh (I think). The Unmade, I believe, are also Splinters of Odium, although I may be wrong on that part.

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, dashardie said:

I think the original idea for "self splintering" comes from the fact that on Nalthis, the Divine Breath are effectively Splinters of Endowment; she splinters off a piece of her own Investiture to create a Returned. Originally when Adonalsium was on/created Roshar, He/She/It also Splintered off pieces of Investiture to create Spren such as the Stormfather/Rider of Storms and Cucicesh (I think). The Unmade, I believe, are also Splinters of Odium, although I may be wrong on that part.

There is a very big difference between providing a small price of power to create a Splinter, and Splintering a shard in a mimicry of the shattering of Adonalsium. 

In the first instance, the Shard remains whole, with a new entity created from its power. In the other, the Shard is damaged to the point that it's intent is no longer present, and all that remains are splinters. 

The former is a normal part of Shardic activities. The Later is something so far outside normal it should not be an expected outcome. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by Calderis

[Blightsong]

@Calderis

The discussion with Yata continued over on the Discord and everyone came to the conclusion that "self-splintering" concept was a product of people mis-remembering several different WoB. Thought id let you know (join that discord btw, if you havent already).

Edited June 3, 2017 by Blightsong

[Calderis]

@Blightsong thank you 

[+Extesian]

Thanks for the info as well @Blightsong, that one was bothering me. 

[Knight Oblivion]

Besides misremembering WoB, could the idea come from Secret History and maybe some WoB? Something about Preservation being prevented from splintering but that Ruin doesn't really know how to actively splinter but can kill?

[+Extesian]

I assume you've seen @Calderis but the FAQ Friday seems to have answered this, an unheld Shard can automatically splinter. That's specific to the vessel voluntarily releasing it but I can't see why it should be different for death. 

 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I assume you've seen @Calderis but the FAQ Friday seems to have answered this, an unheld Shard can automatically splinter. That's specific to the vessel voluntarily releasing it but I can't see why it should be different for death. 

 

I read it and am kind of annoyed by it. Because the answer is basically "damnation near anything could happen depending on the circumstances." 

If the vessel were injured as I've said before, I can understand the Shard splintering. If the vessel chose to or was somehow forced to release the Shard, that could result in a shattering or Dor-like result.

Unless the Vessel intentionally caused it, or dropped the Shard into some kind of hostile environment, I still think that the Shard would remain whole until picked up or developing its own sentience. 

I'm annoyed that the FAQ Friday answer was a non-answer.