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King Cole

Warbreaker questions

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Ok, I just re-read Warbreaker and i have some questions

1. Has Brandon released anything about the advanced commands that Vasher uses, or about the abilities of higher hightenings?

2. Is it possible for a person to be born naturally with an extremely potent breath like a returned?

3. When a returned gives their breath to heal someone, how does that work? Why are they healed when giving someone a breath that isn't as strong doesn't?

4. Can Returned conciously manipulate their appearence as Vasher suggests?

Thanks for answering what you can

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1. Heightenings. Commands are a bit of an unknown.

2. Supremely unlikely, if not completely impossible. Even if a "very healthy breath" equates to 5 average breaths, they would need to be 400 times "healthier" than that.

3. Something related to the nature of Divine Breath that we don't know about yet.

4. Yes. He's a Returned and he's done it. They just need much more practice to get on his level.

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7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

1. Heightenings. Commands are a bit of an unknown.

2. Supremely unlikely, if not completely impossible. Even if a "very healthy breath" equates to 5 average breaths, they would need to be 400 times "healthier" than that.

3. Something related to the nature of Divine Breath that we don't know about yet.

4. Yes. He's a Returned and he's done it. They just need much more practice to get on his level.

Ok, you answered 3 and 4. But isn't that wiki page the information from the back of Warbreaker? Also I didn't mean as strong as a returned but rather much stronger than a normal person. But how is the quality of the breath determined?

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Just now, King Cole said:

But isn't that wiki page the information from the back of Warbreaker?

It is, but as Brandon wrote the book, it's information released by Brandon about the higher Heightenings. We don't know much of anything more about what they do other than that small list.

1 minute ago, King Cole said:

Also I didn't mean as strong as a returned but rather much stronger than a normal person. But how is the quality of the breath determined?

Makes more sense. We know that there is a general "health" to breath, but that's about all we know about how that works.

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9 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Makes more sense. We know that there is a general "health" to breath, but that's about all we know about how that works.

So the healthier you are the when you give away your breath the stronger it is?

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35 minutes ago, King Cole said:

So the healthier you are the when you give away your breath the stronger it is?

There has to be another factor that we don't know about. The more Breath one has the more healthy and long lived they become up to the fifth(?) heightening when they become immune to disease and functionally immortal. 

If the person's health was a determination of breaths strength, then every breath ever held by someone of that heightening or higher would be the strongest possible. 

Edited by Calderis
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Just now, Calderis said:

There has to be another factor that we don't know about. The more healthy and long lived they become up to the fifth(?) heightening when they become immune to disease and functionally immortal. 

If the person's health was a determination of breaths strength, then every breath ever held by someone of that heightening or higher would be the strongest possible. 

No, when you give up your original breath

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Just now, King Cole said:

No, when you give up your original breath

Hmmm... I suppose then we'd need to know if your original Breath is always the first used.

I love the way this magic system presents, but I hate how much of the mechanics of it we have no clue about. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

I love the way this magic system presents, but I hate how much of the mechanics of it we have no clue about. 

Yeah

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8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Hmmm... I suppose then we'd need to know if your original Breath is always the first used.

This is actually a very good question that I am surprised nobody has asked yet... There is a point against it because Divine Breath is technically the Returned's "first," and it gets give away last. That said, this could be unique to Divine Breath.

8 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I love the way this magic system presents, but I hate how much of the mechanics of it we have no clue about. 

cough, cough.. AonDor Modifiers.. grumble, cough. Honestly though, this is yet another line worthy of being the site slogan, right behind my "We get so caught up on the magical that we forget about the practical" from wednesday

Edited by The One Who Connects
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1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

This is actually a very good question that I am surprised nobody has asked yet... There is a point against it because Divine Breath is technically the Returned's "first," and it gets give away last. That said, this could be unique to Divine Breath.

Divine Breath is also the only Breath with an upkeep cost, and that is consumed when used. There's simply much difference between Divine Breath and normal I feel like their inclusion in the system is a technicality. They don't even need to consume breath, just investiture. They feel separate. 

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

cough, cough.. AonDor Modifiers.. grumble, cough. Honestly though, this is yet another line worthy of being the site slogan.

At least with AonDor we know that the length and thickness of the lines and Modifiers have effects. There's whole sections of Awakening that we know exist and beyond that know nothing about. With Nightblood we know his command if not the full details of his creation, but for self effecting commands we don't even have that.

Spoiler

We know that you can make yourself forget. Not the command or hints at other uses.

AonDor is so complicated by sheer number of Aons, and the Modifiers would be so individually influenced by the Aon structure that not understanding them doesn't bother me. They a system that seems like Brandon could try to write about for decades and never complete. But Awakening is pretty straightforward and many of its mechanics are just withheld completely. I want Nightblood to be written for understanding as much as I want the story. 

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Does healing a person with Divine Breath have anything to do with the property of the Fifth Heightening? I'm wondering if you could heal sickness by giving 2,000 breaths to someone in the same way that giving one Divine Breath heals them. I'm not sure if the healing is a property of the Divine Breath itself or just the Fifth Heightening in general. 

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37 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

Does healing a person with Divine Breath have anything to do with the property of the Fifth Heightening? I'm wondering if you could heal sickness by giving 2,000 breaths to someone in the same way that giving one Divine Breath heals them. I'm not sure if the healing is a property of the Divine Breath itself or just the Fifth Heightening in general. 

I'm almost certain its something else but we have no idea what

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45 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

Does healing a person with Divine Breath have anything to do with the property of the Fifth Heightening? I'm wondering if you could heal sickness by giving 2,000 breaths to someone in the same way that giving one Divine Breath heals them. I'm not sure if the healing is a property of the Divine Breath itself or just the Fifth Heightening in general. 

Giving 2000 breaths would take them to the 5th heightening, so in the case of illness it would heal them. For injury though it wouldn't. The fifth heightening makes you functionally immortal, so age and illness won't happen, but death by wounds is still possible. 

Something else happens with divine breath, because when it heals someone it is consumed, and the recipient is not elevated through the heightenings and gains no Breath of their own. 

If there is a command that functions in the same way, which seems like it should be possible by Endowments intent, it hasn't been found. Until it is, it appears to be a function unique to the Divine Breath. Like so much else. 

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We really need the Warbreaker sequel sooner rather than later to get more details on the whole Returned/Divine Breath phenomena. 

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7 hours ago, King Cole said:

1. Has Brandon released anything about the advanced commands that Vasher uses, or about the abilities of higher hightenings?

We know only his Command to store Breath instead of "My life to yours, my Breath become yours" (thanks to the audiobook where he actually say it).

8 hours ago, King Cole said:

2. Is it possible for a person to be born naturally with an extremely potent breath like a returned?

Almost impossible, also people with some "advantage" as Siri and a Breath powerful than normal is magnitude below that. It's for sure below the First Heightening and as nobody points to her as someone who acquired "extra Breath" probably her Breath is below the 10 Breath, much likely she has something like 2-5 Standard Breath equivalent.

8 hours ago, King Cole said:

3. When a returned gives their breath to heal someone, how does that work? Why are they healed when giving someone a breath that isn't as strong doesn't?

Every Breath carries with itself a shade of deity and took you a bit nearer to the perfection (probably allign your physical to the spiritual) a Divine Breath would probably cause (also if only for an istant) your Soul to sync with the body and your Spiritual Aspect is a perfect version of you.

The Cosmere's Healing works usually using the Cognitive as Blueprint (but the Cognitive is still heavy dependant by the Spiritual), while it seems the Divine Breath bypass the Cognitive and use directly the Spiritual.

8 hours ago, King Cole said:

4. Can Returned conciously manipulate their appearence as Vasher suggests?

If someone with only a bit of Divine Breath could do it at a certain extent (Royal locks) I could see a Returned as higher proficient with this

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On 5/27/2017 at 4:56 PM, King Cole said:

1. Has Brandon released anything about the advanced commands that Vasher uses, or about the abilities of higher hightenings?

I don't know about "advanced commands," but I understand Vasher has been a Breath savant for a while now.  It may be that his output is different due to that, not due to his specific input.  (To clarify: Spook doesn't burn tin differently.  Tin burns differently for him.  Unless there's a WoB that says Vasher's commands are unique?)

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I've just put a theory up here that covers off some different thoughts I had on the realmatics of Breath and Awakening. Basically I've speculated (and it is speculative) that having Breath better anchors your physical to spiritual aspect (and cognitive to an extent) and Awakening uses Commands as a method of reprogramming a soul (or creating a new one with the program of your choice). It may be wrong, but it gives some possible answers to some of your questions @King Cole.

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11 hours ago, Caevita said:

I don't know about "advanced commands," but I understand Vasher has been a Breath savant for a while now.

This has been under heavy debate in the past 4 days, and is in no way confirmed. My opinion on the matter is that Vasher is simply that much more skilled due to his extensive amount of practice rather than some kind of Savanthood. Awakening just doesn't seem very conducive to making Savants.

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9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

This has been under heavy debate in the past 4 days, and is in no way confirmed. My opinion on the matter is that Vasher is simply that much more skilled due to his extensive amount of practice rather than some kind of Savanthood. Awakening just doesn't seem very conducive to making Savants.

Yeah I'm on the side of Awakening not causing savants except under extreme circumstances. Awakening uses intent as the focus, I think all it is is that Vasher has extraordinary cognitive control, I mean the guy can suppress his DivineBreath by choosing to believe he's not a god. I think people with savant-like control of Awakening simply are masters of the cognitive realm, rather than able to use investiture more effectively because their spiritweb has been changed by over-use of investiture. 

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On 5/29/2017 at 11:57 AM, The One Who Connects said:

This has been under heavy debate in the past 4 days, and is in no way confirmed. My opinion on the matter is that Vasher is simply that much more skilled due to his extensive amount of practice rather than some kind of Savanthood. Awakening just doesn't seem very conducive to making Savants.

19 hours ago, Extesian said:

Yeah I'm on the side of Awakening not causing savants except under extreme circumstances. Awakening uses intent as the focus, I think all it is is that Vasher has extraordinary cognitive control, I mean the guy can suppress his DivineBreath by choosing to believe he's not a god. I think people with savant-like control of Awakening simply are masters of the cognitive realm, rather than able to use investiture more effectively because their spiritweb has been changed by over-use of investiture. 

I should probably have put that less strongly.  True, it is not confirmed.  All that is confirmed is that magic systems other than the ones on Scadrial are capable of creating savants.  That said, Vasher held an enormous number of Breaths for an extended length of time and, in your own words, has extensive practice with Awakening.  If he isn't a savant, no one on all of Nalthis ever will be.  He has repeatedly done things which fly against all conventional knowledge on Awakening, but you make a good point that Awakening cannot be used constantly in the way that metals can be.  I guess we'll both have to wait and see.

 

 

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On 5/27/2017 at 4:06 PM, King Cole said:

So the healthier you are the when you give away your breath the stronger it is?

It has to do with your age. We know that a Returned can feed on any old Breath and get another week of life but the Breath of children are noted to be 'healthier' and the Returned feel more vibrant and alive with them. (Annotation).

As an aside because this subject interests me, how healthy a given Breath is has a slight effect on progress towards the Heightenings, so someone whose Breath stores come largely from children would take fewer Breaths to reach a given Heightening than someone who got them from the elderly, for example. I got a chance to ask Brandon about what happens to Breath health at a signing last year and he said that once you accumulate enough of it you wouldn't notice a difference in your Breath health over time, for Heightening purposes.

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On 5/29/2017 at 11:57 AM, The One Who Connects said:

This has been under heavy debate in the past 4 days, and is in no way confirmed. My opinion on the matter is that Vasher is simply that much more skilled due to his extensive amount of practice rather than some kind of Savanthood. Awakening just doesn't seem very conducive to making Savants.

I have to agree to disagree with you there.  To me Awakening seems explicitly designed to make savants. My apologies for everything not lining up quite right.


Ars Arcanum

TABLE OF THE HEIGHTENINGS

Heightening Number Approximate Breaths Needed to Reach This Heightening Effects of the Heightening

First 50 Aura Recognition

Second 200 Perfect Pitch

Third 600 Perfect Color Recognition

Fourth 1,000 Perfect Life Recognition

Fifth 2,000 Agelessness

Sixth 3,500 Instinctive Awakening

Seventh 5,000 Invested Breath Recognition

Eighth 10,000 Command Breaking

Ninth 20,000 Greater Awakening, Audible Command

Tenth 50,000 Color Distortion, Perfect Invocation, ????


Bolds are my emphasis.  These two items in particular seem very savant like to me. The difference being active vs passive use between Scadrial and Nalthis.
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17 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Bolds are my emphasis.  These two items in particular seem very savant like to me. The difference being active vs passive use between Scadrial and Nalthis.

Except Savantism is permanently damaging the soul, with negative side effects as a result. 

The heightenings are fully reversible and have no drawbacks. That's not Savantism 

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14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Except Savantism is permanently damaging the soul, with negative side effects as a result. 

The heightenings are fully reversible and have no drawbacks. That's not Savantism 

Wax.   No ill effects.

And yes I know Brandon is troubled by this.

Edited by FiveLate
Clarification
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