[OB] [Oathbringer Spoilers] Aimia/Larkins

[Blightsong]

I'm sure a lot of you have read the Oathbringer interlude set right outside of Aimia (find it here if you havent) and i have a theory on one of the questions posed in it. What is on the island that can possibly cure Soulcaster savantism?

My theory proposes that the Larkin/Lanceryn or their gemhearts (which are rumored to be on Aimian islands), used in fabrials, have the ability to rid the soul of the affects of savantism. This fits with what we already have seen them do (suck stormlight out of Lift). Expanding on this, I could see how these powers could greatly help Odium and his forces conquer Roshar. Not only could the Lanceryn be uused to easily combat Shardbearers and Surgebinders, but I could see how their powers could possibly be used in many other ways.

As always, let me know what you guys think.

edit: FIRST!11!!one!11

Edited May 25, 2017 by Blightsong

[Calderis]

I don't know... The Larkin being able to drain/consume investiture doesn't seem like it would do anything to repair the long term spiritweb damage from overuse. 

[Blightsong]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't know... The Larkin being able to drain/consume investiture doesn't seem like it would do anything to repair the long term spiritweb damage from overuse. 

You say spirit web damage, but that damage is done by and consists of investiture. Its not that far of an intuitive leap. Especially when you consider that the larkin/lanceryn are pretty much the only thing foreshadowed from Aimia (besides sleepless cremlings) before this interlude.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Blightsong

[Calderis]

Just now, Blightsong said:

You say spirit web damage, but that damage is done by and consists of investiture. Its not that far of an intuitive leap.

But if it drains investiture in the form that actually constructs the spiritweb, it seems far more likely that it would strip that structure away causing more damage than it would be able to restore the original structure. 

[Blightsong]

Just now, Calderis said:

But if it drains investiture in the form that actually constructs the spiritweb, it seems far more likely that it would strip that structure away causing more damage than it would be able to restore the original structure. 

I dont know, we already know that a process similar to the one im describing exists in the Cosmere (as well as having shown similar affects to a Larkin).

Quote

DOUGLAS

What benefit does an aluminum savant get? Yes, I know this would normally never happen because aluminum burns itself up. Suppose a mad scientist with a willing Mistborn test subject shoved a feeding tube down the Mistborn's throat to pump in a continuous stream of aluminum, replenishing it steadily so there's always a new unburned supply. Add another tube to pump out excess water if necessary. What would he discover? Alternatively, what would Sazed with his Shard-granted knowledge know?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ha, that IS a little silly of a method. However, on the extreme end of aluminum, I have in the notes the possibility of cleansing the spirit of unwanted effects of other investitures. You'd get really good at this, and maybe even be able to cleanse the body of other impurities.

 

[Calderis]

@Blightsong I'll agree to disagree. I've always taken that to mean that aluminum can remove metals, and the investiture provided via them from the individual, and in extreme cases could remove active investiture effects from other systems (breath, Stormlight, forgery). 

Healing the spiritweb seems to require an ability akin to Stormlight healing or allomantic gold. Even then, savantism has widened the cracks that allow the use of investiture in the first place. It seems that anything able to fix those, would also "unsnap" someone. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Calderis

[Blightsong]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Blightsong I'll agree to disagree. I've always taken that to mean that aluminum can remove metals, and the investiture provided via them from the individual, and in extreme cases could remove active investiture effects from other systems (breath, Stormlight, forgery). 

Healing the spiritweb seems to require an ability akin to Stormlight healing or allomantic gold. Even then, savant is has widened the cracks that allow the use of investiture in the first place. It seems that anything able to fix those, would also "unsnap" someone. 

Fair enough. It does seem to me, however, that the healing of Shardblade wounds is a matter of abscence, not excess like with Savantism. It makes sense to me that pouring more investiture in wouldn't solve the problem, but i could definitely be wrong.

[+Extesian]

I quite like this idea @Blightsong. Larkins drain investiture like Nightblood and leechers.

Quote

QUESTION

If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. The Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but...This type of thing is not unheard of in the cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be REALLY hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so.

I'm actually surprised at the aluminum cleansing WoB though because aluminum blocksinvestiture, it doesn't eat it. 

Quote

ARGENT

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Long pause]I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

QUESTION

Different way then?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

My problem is also with what happens to someone who has used investiture too much having that cleansed from them. I recently posted a theory on Elantrians about this, basically that once the channels in your spiritweb are widened by investiture, as happens with a savant or someone who accesses Shard power directly (eg through the mists) out is only investiture flow keeping that person's body matching their soul. Withdraw that investiture and their body withers. 

I think soulcasting savants only have their melting bodies kept connected to their souls through investiture. Drain that with a larkin, without shoring up those channels with something else, and I think at best they become like an Elantrian during the Shaod, at worse I think their physical self detaches from the Spiritual self and they die (or become a cognitive shadow).

[Calderis]

18 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I'm actually surprised at the aluminum cleansing WoB though because aluminum blocksinvestiture, it doesn't eat it.

It's not the aluminum itself doing the cleansing though. It's the allomantic ability provided by burning aluminum. That's also why it would require savant level abilities to effect investiture beyond Allomancy, whereas aluminum itself blocks that investiture inherently. 

18 minutes ago, Extesian said:

My problem is also with what happens to someone who has used investiture too much having that cleansed from them.

Mine as well. Savantism is damage caused by investiture warping the spirit through overuse. It makes sense that a Shard would be able to alter that like with Spook, but that was done purposefully. I can't see that damage being reversed without the specific intent to do so. Savantism being healed as a side effect of something else seems... To lessen the severity of what savant is. Brandon feeling the need to redefine Wax because his Savantism had no drawbacks seems to play into that as well. Savantism is something with real and significant consequences. 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Calderis

[Blightsong]

@Calderis @ExtesianI dont think the affects of savantism become completely homogeneous with the Soul. The Spiritual Realm is able to tell what is new and what is original (like with Soulstamps and hemalurgic spikes) in my opinion.

Quote

QUESTION

So a Soulstamp doesn’t necessarily change the core of your Spiritual--

BRANDON SANDERSON

It does, but it’s overriding it. It’s like Hemalurgy. What you are is still there underneath when it’s ripped away.

Edit: This concept is even explored in the interlude

Quote

Interlude: The stone did not wish to change. It was content with its long slumber in the ocean. But yes… Yes, it remembered. It had once been air until someone had locked it into this shape. She could not make it air again, her soulcaster only had one mode--not the full three. She did not know why.

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Blightsong

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Blightsong said:

@Calderis @ExtesianI dont think the affects of savantism become completely homogeneous with the Soul. The Spiritual Realm is able to tell what is new and what is original (like with Soulstamps and hemalurgic spikes) in my opinion.

Edit: This concept is even explored in the interlude

 

Yeah that's a fair argument. I still feel it would be a spiritwebby problem but I don't have much canon material to base that on, more just my own ideas about how investiture works in the Realms. But I like the linkage anyway with larkins. 

Though one thing we should remember is there may be no cure whatsoever there. The soulcaster is going there because it used to be where Aimians sold soulcasters (the fabrials). We have no idea if they had a cure, just that if anyone would it would be the people who originally made them. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

@Extesian @Calderis Do we know if Larkin's can absorb all investiture or just Stormlight? If so they could take out even Nightblood... 

[+Extesian]

14 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

@Extesian @Calderis Do we know if Larkin's can absorb all investiture or just Stormlight? If so they could take out even Nightblood... 

Yep all investiture. 

Quote

ARGENT

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Long pause]I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

QUESTION

Different way then?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Quote

QUESTION

If you were a Leecher, could you destroy a Shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Umm...I'm going to RAFO that for now, let's just say that it would be incredibly difficult if it were possible, and I'm not going to even say if it is. The Investiture in a Shardblade is much greater than your average Allomancer, but...This type of thing is not unheard of in the cosmere. The larkin, the Leechers, and Nightblood all have a similar sort of thing going on. Destroying a Shardblade would be REALLY hard. And Investiture resists other forms of Investiture, so

The problem is Nightblood also eats any investiture. And a cute little larkin ain't gonna win am eating-each-other competition against one of the most invested things in the Cosmere

[Jace21]

Quote

The problem is Nightblood also eats any investiture. And a cute little larkin ain't gonna win am eating-each-other competition against one of the most invested things in the Cosmere

While I completely agree with the principle that a Larkin couldn't drain Nightblood, I would like to point out that nightblood requires contact whereas the Larkin doesnt. 

So at least the Larkin could try and fail in relative safety.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Jace21

[Jofwu]

I dismissed this at first, but I like it the more I think about it. I don't think comparing with Nightblood is right? Or at least that the comparison can't be taken too far. But anyways, I'm curious what the greater implications are...

Larkins/Lanceryn seem to associated with the Knights Radiant in a positive way, no? If nothing else they seem to be a healthy, natural creature on Roshar. So what does this theory imply about them beyond this specific practical usage? (a cure for savantism surely can't be all they're useful for)

What does it mean for the world that at least two live larkins are out and about in the rest of Roshar?

And why are the Aimians (or this one at least) so determined to keep this secret?

[ZenBossanova]

I understand that soulcasters want and need there to be a solution. And the most logical place to go, is where they were made. If anybody knew, it is the people there. 

But that was hundreds, if not thousands of years ago. If this were Earth, the Last Desolation would have happened around the time of Moses. So, I would take any rumors with a healthy grain (or sack) of salt. 

Now, how important could a Larkin be for rebuilding the eco-system of Aimia, or giving us the next generation of Aimians.... that is an interesting question, but that would be a threadjack. Back to your regularly scheduled debate.