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Lounge II (The Lounge Strikes Back)


kais

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1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

Jewish mysticism is definitely in the running for the most misunderstood series of concepts because authors and creators have a tendency to grab them for whatever given work they're working on and twisting them to match, whereupon people who consume those works then walk away with a whole set of misunderstandings and then the cycle just repeats itself.

This is why I'm hoping to match a heavy amount of research with actually chatting with some folks. Thankfully, it appears I've got several decently knowledgeable people here, and my sister's friend has a massively Jewish family. 

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

I'm not saying intermarriage didn't happen, but it would definitely be considered offensive in the 1800s to any group of religious Jews.

That's what I'm counting on, actually! That's one of the main reasons I'm thinking why the MC and his wife leave New York City. NYC had a population of about 80,000 people of Jewish faith, that were mostly Polish and Russian, congregated mostly in the Lower East Side in Manhattan, as well as four other neighborhoods.  

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

golems can't be evil. (At least, I'm pretty sure they can't.)

From what I've read, no, golems can't be evil in the traditional sense. However, what research I've done suggests that golems tend to have to be destroyed because they turn destructive after a period of time. So I'm more looking at...what happens if golems don't receive the correct instructions right from the get go? Much like, what if you have a robotic bulldozer that is driving itself? Somebody is going to get squished (that is a terrible metaphor and I'm sorry). One missing piece of code, and everything goes haywire. I mean, the golem can be destroyed by simply Emet ("truth") to Met ("dead") by removing the aleph. What happens if you add the wrong letter somewhere, or forget a letter? 

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

Given that was precisely the type of cultural mistake you're trying to avoid, I'd really recommend taking a good step back and trying to do some heavy research on the subject or possibly switching to an alternate form of mysticism.

I look at this as a win-win situation. 

Scenario 1: It turns out Judaism is perfect for the story. I do the right research, I talk to the right people, I end up with a solid book, I am happy.

Scenario 2: It turns out Judaism just doesn't fit without me warping it. I have learned something cool about a culture and religion I didn't know much about, and have gained strong appreciation for it. Then I set the Kabbalah and the Sefer Yetzirah aside, and begin building a magic system that does work. I love building magic systems. I write a solid book, I am happy.

Thank you, @aeromancer ! 

27 minutes ago, Silva said:

*spontaneously appears*

I knew there was be a reason my brain told me to open this thread!

Orthodox Jew here. Full disclaimer: I'm a teenager. My knowledge on these things isn't complete and more lacking than it should be. I've never learnt kaballah, which is mysticism, since there's a thing against learning it till you're 40 for fear of misunderstanding and losing faith. Finding a kabbalist who knows stuff and is willing to share that knowledge might prove difficult because of that, but still possible.

Reincarnation is very ingrained in kaballah. There is, however, a concept of a soul, a neshama, (which is part of God, sort of?) and that they cycle. I'd be hesitant to call it reincarnation, though.

Hello! I thank your brain for guiding you here! 

I'm currently reading the Kabbalah and I am finding it fascinating. I completely get the concern about misunderstanding because not only is this stuff dense, it is very...metaphorical? I've had to reread the section about the Sephiroth multiple times now. 

I agree with the reincarnation that isn't really reincarnation. From what I understand Elijah may have been reincarnated as John the Baptist and as Enoch. Don't quote me on this.

I guess I should say I'm more looking into resurrection, and raising the dead doesn't appear to be limited to Jesus in Christianity. Elijah is said to have raised the dead, for instance. 

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2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I'd love to see this published!

 

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

The more I read of Name then more I am convinced that it deserves to be published. 

I'm going to tuck both of these comments away for rainy days. Maybe I'll write them on a sticky note and place them on my desk. I need reminders like these for when my brain stops being my cheerleader.

1 hour ago, Robinski said:

It's actually quite refreshing to read a character that is good, thoughtful, caring and has a strong (sense of) family bonds. So much in fiction now is about antiheroes and gritty, grim, darkness.

That was actually the main reason I started coming up with the world. I was so tired of reading fantasy books that were depressing. A Song of Ice and Fire definitely didn't help. You can have a good, kind character that still makes mistakes. A strong plot can have lots of conflict without needing massive amounts of torture and death. Life is depressing enough. 

I think the best choice I made from Draft One to Draft Two was ditching the romance subplot and focusing on the theme of family. I know nothing about romantic relationships, but I have a very tight knit family. I guess this returns to the old advice of "Write what you know." 

I'm rewriting chapter one and I've discovered that Ir's sister sounds exactly like my mother's side of the family when we rant about something. Like, if you smashed myself, my mother, my sister, and both of my uncles together when we're angry and passionate about a topic, that's Sue. Except Sue wants to overthrow a monarch, and we get furious about untrained dogs in supermarkets. 

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6 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

we get furious about untrained dogs in supermarkets

Yes, and then there's untrained children!! Come to think of it, I'm sure dogs are not allowed in UK supermarkets, apart from guide-dogs.

7 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

ditching the romance subplot

I mean, I'm a hopeless romantic, and need to have romance to some degree in all my stories, but if character done well, there is absolutely no necessity for it. By the same token, even if there is no romantic subplot, it does not mean that the character cannot have romantic thoughts, or even act on them, but it not be part of a long-running, over-arch plot thread. 

And, glad to hear you enthused enough to enjoy editing :)  It was almost June.

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13 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

That's what I'm counting on, actually! That's one of the main reasons I'm thinking why the MC and his wife leave New York City. NYC had a population of about 80,000 people of Jewish faith, that were mostly Polish and Russian, congregated mostly in the Lower East Side in Manhattan, as well as four other neighborhoods.  

Intermarriage is also considered offensive to modern groups of religious Jews. I do see your point about how it would serve to drive the MC to a different place, but it addition to that, the Christian community of NYC would also do the same. Intermarriage is also heavily frowned upon by religious Christians, or at least it is for the vast majority of the sects. Obviously, both sides are fine with it if conversion has taken place, but each side is also annoyed at one of their own converting to the other side.

20 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

From what I've read, no, golems can't be evil in the traditional sense. However, what research I've done suggests that golems tend to have to be destroyed because they turn destructive after a period of time. So I'm more looking at...what happens if golems don't receive the correct instructions right from the get go? Much like, what if you have a robotic bulldozer that is driving itself? Somebody is going to get squished (that is a terrible metaphor and I'm sorry). One missing piece of code, and everything goes haywire. I mean, the golem can be destroyed by simply Emet ("truth") to Met ("dead") by removing the aleph. What happens if you add the wrong letter somewhere, or forget a letter? 

I mean, that's really functionally the same thing as a rogue AI because you've given the AI instructions to go rogue. At that point, it's more of a question of 'What where you thinking when you gave the orders?', although I suppose things could be said for misunderstanding orders. (Actually, that's the whole point of Nightblood from Warbreaker - the sword was instructed to destroy evil, but given that he's a sword and can't handle abstract concepts like 'evil' too well, he just assumes everyone is evil.)

Also, yes, this is what I was referring to. There seems to be a common belief that the way you create a golem is finalized by writing words on the forehead, and can be destroyed by changing the word. That works great from a literary perspective, I just don't know how authentic that is, given the lack of historical accounts of actual golems.

24 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

I'm currently reading the Kabbalah and I am finding it fascinating. I completely get the concern about misunderstanding because not only is this stuff dense, it is very...metaphorical? I've had to reread the section about the Sephiroth multiple times now. 

I hesitate to ask this, but what exactly are you reading, and far more importantly, what language is it in? If it's a translation, then be aware you're limited to the translator's understanding of the original text.

26 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

I agree with the reincarnation that isn't really reincarnation. From what I understand Elijah may have been reincarnated as John the Baptist and as Enoch. Don't quote me on this

Pretty sure that Judaism doesn't believe that, given John the Baptist was a Christian. (Unless you want to count Christianity as a sub-sect of Judaism, which it technically is, or at the very least, it used to be. But that's a complex discussion probably best served elsewhere.)

28 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

I guess I should say I'm more looking into resurrection, and raising the dead doesn't appear to be limited to Jesus in Christianity. Elijah is said to have raised the dead, for instance. 

This seems to be a better path than reincarnation, but be aware that it's my understanding that raising the dead only works under exceptional circumstances as dictated by God. And, well, given that, there's not really a set of circumstances you can check off in order to make it work, it's not merely a 'making-the-correct-percentile-die-roll' skill check.

31 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

I look at this as a win-win situation. 

Scenario 1: It turns out Judaism is perfect for the story. I do the right research, I talk to the right people, I end up with a solid book, I am happy.

Scenario 2: It turns out Judaism just doesn't fit without me warping it. I have learned something cool about a culture and religion I didn't know much about, and have gained strong appreciation for it. Then I set the Kabbalah and the Sefer Yetzirah aside, and begin building a magic system that does work. I love building magic systems. I write a solid book, I am happy.

Alright. In that case, I'll keep telling you all I can, then. Glad to have this discussion.

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2 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Reform movements did begin in the 1800s, but it's my understanding (I may be wrong, @kais might know more) that they also had a taboo against intermarriage at that point in time. I'm not saying intermarriage didn't happen, but it would definitely be considered offensive in the 1800s to any group of religious Jews. Furthermore, I can't say much on the concept of reincarnation in Judaism except I'm pretty sure that there isn't a concept of a human being able to do it.

Pretty spot on all around. You'll have a hard time getting a conservative or Orthodox Jewish person to talk to you about deep faith things unless you are SERIOUS about converting, and even then, you're going to have to beg. Intermarriage is...a minefield. Even now mostly reformed Jewish people do it, and even then, not all. Reincarnation I've never heard of discussed. Most aspects of Judaism I've mingled in don't even have a 'heaven'. When you die, you're dead. That's it. Done. Your 'after life' is the legacy you leave behind in terms of whom you cared for, the marks of good you left on the world. Now if you're getting into the MYSTICISM side, there's like...seven heavens or something like that. I don't know. That part is cool but not really what we believe in so much, at least not in any way I've ever seen (but, again, remember, I'm a diet coke version).

 

And I 100% yield the floor to @Silva, because Orthodoxy will get you waaaay more answers than reformed.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, kais said:

Most aspects of Judaism don't even have a 'heaven'. When you die, you're dead. That's it. Done. Your 'after life' is the legacy you leave behind in terms of whom you cared for, the marks of good you left on the world. Now if you're getting into the MYSTICISM side, there's like...seven heavens or something like that. I don't know. That part is cool but not really what we believe in so much, at least not in any way I've ever seen (but, again, remember, I'm a diet coke version).

I've heard that Orthodox Jews very much believe in heaven, though. Actually, I've seen this idea around a few place of 'Jews don't believe in heaven' (last time I saw it was a discussion around the morality of cryonics, of all things), except, like I said, I thought this was completely wrong. It's very interesting to hear you say that, then. Do you know whether or not this is a Reform-specific belief, or does it apply to Judaism as a whole?

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2 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

I hesitate to ask this, but what exactly are you reading, and far more importantly, what language is it in? If it's a translation, then be aware you're limited to the translator's understanding of the original text.

34 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

I'm currently reading The Kabbalah: The Essential Texts From the Zohar, translated by S.L. MacGregor Mathers, foreword by Z.ev ben Shimon Halevi. It's a 2005 copy of the original translation published in 1887 in Qabalah Unveiled. So there's an actual chance my MC may have read this particular translation. 

I also have (unread, still reading the Kabbalah): On the Kabbalah and It's Symbolism by Gershom Scholem, and The Cipher of Genesis: The Original Code of the Qabala as Applied to the Scriptures by Carlo Suares. 

9 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Alright. In that case, I'll keep telling you all I can, then. Glad to have this discussion.

Glad to have this discussion too! After talking with you all, I may lean towards Scenario 2 and simply read the Kabbalah because I'm enjoying it, rather than for research. It might be more worthwhile for me to turn towards creating a new magic system. Or...maybe I need to turn to folk tales? Native American mythology?  Hmmm...

At the very least, this whole endeavor towards learning about Judaism might spark inspiration somewhere else! 

2 minutes ago, kais said:

Now if you're getting into the MYSTICISM side, there's like...seven heavens or something like that. I don't know.

And the worlds that came before our worlds, the minor gods, the angels, the Sephiroth, the male/female sides of God and a LOT MORE.

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6 minutes ago, Snakenaps said:

And the worlds that came before our worlds, the minor gods, the angels, the Sephiroth, the male/female sides of God and a LOT MORE.

Judaism doesn't have 'minor gods', it's a strictly monotheistic religion. If that's the exact text used, something got lost in translation. No doubt a lot of things got lost in translation, given how Ancient Hebrew works.

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3 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Judaism doesn't have 'minor gods', it's a strictly monotheistic religion. If that's the exact text used, something got lost in translation. No doubt a lot of things got lost in translation, given how Ancient Hebrew works.

I am becoming more and more convinced I am over my head XD 

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1 hour ago, Snakenaps said:

I agree with the reincarnation that isn't really reincarnation. From what I understand Elijah may have been reincarnated as John the Baptist and as Enoch. Don't quote me on this.

I guess I should say I'm more looking into resurrection, and raising the dead doesn't appear to be limited to Jesus in Christianity. Elijah is said to have raised the dead, for instance. 

Well, yeah, like @aeromancer said, the Jewish belief is that Elijah (Eliyahu) has yet to return (and that he also never actually died per se, but that's another rabbit hole...).

Resurrection like that is a thing. Elijah and Elisha both did it (see: Kings I and II. I don't know the chapter and verse off-hand). 

1 hour ago, kais said:

Pretty spot on all around. You'll have a hard time getting a conservative or Orthodox Jewish person to talk to you about deep faith things unless you are SERIOUS about converting, and even then, you're going to have to beg. Intermarriage is...a minefield. Even now mostly reformed Jewish people do it, and even then, not all. Reincarnation I've never heard of discussed. Most aspects of Judaism I've mingled in don't even have a 'heaven'. When you die, you're dead. That's it. Done. Your 'after life' is the legacy you leave behind in terms of whom you cared for, the marks of good you left on the world. Now if you're getting into the MYSTICISM side, there's like...seven heavens or something like that. I don't know. That part is cool but not really what we believe in so much, at least not in any way I've ever seen (but, again, remember, I'm a diet coke version).

 

And I 100% yield the floor to @Silva, because Orthodoxy will get you waaaay more answers than reformed.

The seven layers are on the Gehenom (~ hell, but more like purgatory I think?) side. Seven's a number that rattles all over the place. Maybe it's on the other side too? I've never heard of it.

I can only provide what I know. We have no hivemind of all Orthodox Jewry knowledge, unfortunately. :P

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

I've heard that Orthodox Jews very much believe in heaven, though. Actually, I've seen this idea around a few place of 'Jews don't believe in heaven' (last time I saw it was a discussion around the morality of cryonics, of all things), except, like I said, I thought this was completely wrong. It's very interesting to hear you say that, then. Do you know whether or not this is a Reform-specific belief, or does it apply to Judaism as a whole?

Yep. Olam Habah (literally: the world to come, heaven) is a belief in Orthodoxy (not sure if it's one of the thirteen principles of faith, though). Beliefs vary greatly depending where on the spectrum you're looking.

1 hour ago, Snakenaps said:

And the worlds that came before our worlds, the minor gods, the angels, the Sephiroth, the male/female sides of God and a LOT MORE.

From my miniscule kaballah knowledge: Worlds before our world (check), minor gods (question mark, would definitely want to see the original Hebrew text for that one), angels (check), Sephiroth (admittedly had to look that one up, very possible), male/female sides of God (squiggly, unsure mark. Sort of. I've heard the sides before, not the gender thing. That's new, but I can see where it fits in).

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

Judaism doesn't have 'minor gods', it's a strictly monotheistic religion. If that's the exact text used, something got lost in translation. No doubt a lot of things got lost in translation, given how Ancient Hebrew works.

The whole one God thing is pretty instrumental. I'm not going to say that the translation is totally wrong outright, since we're talking kaballah and I've never seen this text in its original Hebrew. Again, kaballah is weird and riddled with easy to misunderstand things.

1 hour ago, Snakenaps said:

I am becoming more and more convinced I am over my head XD 

That's a completely legitimate feeling. This is why research exists--to make sure you know what you're getting into, in both ways. Hence, your two scenarios.

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3 hours ago, Snakenaps said:

Native American mythology?  Hmmm...

I've gone through periods of researching Native American stories for novels and then either not writing them or quickly shelving them because native culture has been so abused and misused. I don't trust myself to do it right. 

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2 minutes ago, shatteredsmooth said:

I've gone through periods of researching Native American stories for novels and then either not writing them or quickly shelving them because native culture has been so abused and misused. I don't trust myself to do it right. 

Point taken. 

I've primarily studied Greco-Roman mythology due to six years of Latin. At this point, people have screwed with that mythology so much that it doesn't matter anymore. I need to be more objective and think about how my writing can affect others. That's a new feeling, but a good lesson to learn.

I need to go back to the drawing board and think about what I really want to write about. What is the core of this new story? NotK started with me wanting to write about a world with talking unicorns and dragons. 

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1 hour ago, Snakenaps said:

I've primarily studied Greco-Roman mythology due to six years of Latin. At this point, people have screwed with that mythology so much that it doesn't matter anymore. I need to be more objective and think about how my writing can affect others. That's a new feeling, but a good lesson to learn.

 

Yeah - I think Greco-Roman mythology is fair game. 

It's when you get into the stories of more marginalized cultures that you have really think carefully about whether or not you should be using it in your fantasy if you are not part of that culture. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do it, but its good to really think about why you are doing it if you do enough research and hire sensitivity readers, but you definitely have to tread carefully. 

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5 hours ago, shatteredsmooth said:

Yeah - I think Greco-Roman mythology is fair game. 

It's when you get into the stories of more marginalized cultures that you have really think carefully about whether or not you should be using it in your fantasy if you are not part of that culture. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't do it, but its good to really think about why you are doing it if you do enough research and hire sensitivity readers, but you definitely have to tread carefully. 

I think this is a really good lesson for me to learn. Considering my background, I especially think I should be careful. I didn't grow up in a very culturally/ethnically diverse city, and where I live now is only marginally better. I don't have the experience, knowledge, or wisdom to write a culture, society, or belief system so dramatically different than what I know. Maybe one day I'll have the ability to bring in a larger world into my stories, but right now I should take baby steps. If I'm nervous writing a male MC, then I definitely shouldn't get over my head and write about a religion I know practically nothing about. 

It's so easy for me to get overenthusiastic about an idea, grab it in my teeth, and run with it before I think it through. I admit, I've been completely thrilled at the idea of writing a story that *isn't* in my current world and stretching myself. So what did I do? Pretty much go in the complete opposite direction of what I'm currently writing, and immediately got over my head.

I think this has been very worthwhile. Not only have I been saved a lot of time of research, but I've learned something new about myself. 

I'm still going to read the Kabbalah, though. I find it fascinating. 

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My garden of chaos is finally mostly planted. Now I just have to keep reminding myself to resist the feeling that I need to fill the empty spaces with more plants, so the ones there have room to grow. Especially where there are seeds that are just germinating...I already probably have things too close together in some areas. Like that zucchini I threw into that gaping hole at the end of my strawberry patch...:lol:

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32 minutes ago, shatteredsmooth said:

My garden of chaos is finally mostly planted

Ooooh!!!! Strawberries, zucchini...what else are you growing? Tomatoes? Squash? Why are some in gardening boxes and others not? 

I admit, I'm massively jealous. I unfortunately inherited my mother's brown thumb. My sister has a flourishing green thumb, and is growing yellow squash, two types of tomatoes, garlic, onion, a vast garden of other plants I don't know the name of, and a 2ft avacado tree she grew from a pit. Her boyfriend and roommates have forbidden her from getting anymore plants, but she always manages to sneak them in. 

I have a ball of java moss in a jar that isn't dead yet. 

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1 hour ago, Snakenaps said:

Why are some in gardening boxes and others not? 

There used to be a couple maples near them, so there were too many roots in the area where the garden boxes are. 

Those boxes were so I didn't have dig through too many roots. Also, I can never get carrots to germinate in the natural soil in that area. They do better in the raised beds. 

I have tomatoes, peppers, summer squash, zucchini, butternut / winter squash, cucumbers, shallots, assorted salad greens, broccoli (which is not doing well), eggplant, soybeans, turnip, carrots, potatoes (in a trash barrel), strawberries, three apple trees, and a couple blueberry bushes.  

Later in the summer, when I look at my garden compared to my neighbors, or to my spouse's aunts, it usually clear that my thumb is not as green as theirs, but I manage. Every year there are a couple things that will just randomly die while other things grow uncontrollably.

The area where stuff is directly in the ground is double the size it was last year. 

Edited by shatteredsmooth
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BUNNIES!

Well, I can't top that, but this post is actually all @Robinski's fault anyway. By which I mean I'm continuing a conversation we started elsewhere because it seemed more appropriate than continuing to appropriate one of  @Mandamon's crit threads, so Robinski, if you want to watch me play trombone and sing at the same time,* you can catch me attempting to just do that on the playback from my last livestream concert on my Facebook page (that particular number starts at about 33:25, music in general starts at about 9:30 - I started the video earlier than the concert to check the connection).

* Admittedly I was using some technology to help the process along, but that was all live. As the various errors will probably attest. Turns out that's really friggin' hard to do.

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24 minutes ago, Silk said:

if you want to watch me play trombone and sing at the same time,* you can catch me attempting to just do that on the playback from my last livestream concert on my Facebook page (that particular number starts at about 33:25, music in general starts at about 9:30 - I started the video earlier than the concert to check the connection).

Watching now. Hey! I know the words to one of those songs very well! As if they were written down or something. ;-)

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2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Watching now. Hey! I know the words to one of those songs very well! As if they were written down or something. ;-)

I wonder where you might have heard that before!

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