Adonalsium's magic system?

[Lord Bookwyrm]

So, I've been thinking a lot about magic systems lately. They all seem to be related to the Shard that created them (preservation is related to pushing on metals and enflaming people's emotions? That's a bit of a stretch), and Adonalsium is all the Shards, and so doesn't really have a specific Shardic Intent, and so the magic system he may or may not have created would just be something to do with Investiture, and nothing else. This is what I think it would be: You take something and you store Investiure in it (kind of like nicrosil feruchemy), in the form of physical abilities/attributes. This includes speed, emotions, health, etc. (sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it? Don't worry, it deviates from feruchemy in the next part). Then, the Investiture stored in the object is not anything in particular, but just pure Investiture. When you want to use it, you simply drain the Investiture out of it and convert it into anything you want it to be. People who could use this magic system would be able to use magic systems created by other Shards as well, since all the Shards came from Adonalsium. So, you could make yourself really light, then fly across the sky by pushing yourself along on a coin. Here's why I think the magic system would work: Adonalsium doesn't have a specific Shardic Intent, so he can do anything without conflicting against it. The magic system, similarly, wouldn't have any specific boundaries. This, however, means that it is subject to normal rules, such as the first law of thermodynamics, which states that energy (and so matter and Investiture) cannot be created or destroyed. You may be thinking at this point 'but that can't be true, since Allomancy created Investiture'. However, I have two answers to this. The first is that the Investiture wasn't created, it simply came from somewhere, and that somewhere was Preservation. His Intent didn't allow destruction, or Ruin, so the power couldn't come from the people themselves; it had to come from Preservation. My second answer is that, for all the Investiture being created by Allomancy, an equal amount was lost through hemalurgy. Therefore, no Investiture was gained or lost, therefore leaving the rule intact. Because of this rule, the Investiture would either have to come from Adonalsium (which I find unlikely, since it would A: weaken him to the thing that opposed him (look on the Coppermind for details), and B: would make him 'interfere' (quote from Harmony), and would split the power into Shards, leaving him weaker and with an Intent that would leave his mind. So, it has to come from the humans who use it. However, the thing stored is pure Investiture, since it's not from any particular Shard, and so you could convert it to anything you want, and since it doesn't have any focus, you can store it in anything and can store anything and tap anything, even if the thing you're tapping isn't the same thing as what you stored.

Feel free to add anything if you want, since I probably left something out or made a loophole.

[Argent]

3 minutes ago, Lord Bookworm said:

So, I've been thinking a lot about magic systems lately.

Professionals recommend you see a doctor if this lasts more than four hours.

4 minutes ago, Lord Bookworm said:

They all seem to be related to the Shard that created them (preservation is related to pushing on metals and enflaming people's emotions? That's a bit of a stretch)

I think you are thinking about this incorrectly. Magic systems do seem to share something with their Shard(s)'s intent, but it's a little more vague than that. Allomancy is about preserving yourself - because the investiture comes from Preservation himself, you are not expending any of your own. Hemalurgy is pretty straightforwardly ruinous. Feruchemy is the balance between these two powers. Awakening is the act of granting, of endowing some form of limited life to objects. Surgebinding is, at least partially, dependent on the Radiant acting with honor (fitting Cultivation on it is a little more difficult, as we don't know much about her, so we'll leave her out for now). And so on.

As for the rest of your theory... Honestly, I think it's boring. You put all the known magic systems together, you end up with something that loses a lot of the flavor. Brandon wouldn't do something like this. 

14 minutes ago, Lord Bookworm said:

ou may be thinking at this point 'but that can't be true, since Allomancy created Investiture'. However, I have two answers to this. The first is that the Investiture wasn't created, it simply came from somewhere, and that somewhere was Preservation. His Intent didn't allow destruction, or Ruin, so the power couldn't come from the people themselves; it had to come from Preservation. My second answer is that, for all the Investiture being created by Allomancy, an equal amount was lost through hemalurgy.

Allomancy doesn't create investiture - investiture, like energy, can be neither created nor destroyed, only converted to and from. You seem to be aware of this, but I emphasize it because your second point doesn't follow from it - Preservation could, in theory, use up all of his power fueling Allomancers, and this would impose no Hemalurgic restriction whatsoever. Moreover, all of this Preservation investiture will eventually make its way back to the Spiritual Realm and rejoin the Shard (so to speak). 

 

18 minutes ago, Lord Bookworm said:

Because of this rule, the Investiture would either have to come from Adonalsium (which I find unlikely, since it would A: weaken him to the thing that opposed him (look on the Coppermind for details)

The "thing" that opposed Adonalsium has been confirmed to have been the original sixteen Vessels. The Coppermind might be out of date on that regard, as the reveal was made in Secret History, but there is very little room to doubt he correctness of this information. So, considering the power discrepancy between the original sixteen and Adonalsium, the argument that Adonalsium would make himself weaker to them is like saying that evaporating a glass of water from the ocean makes it more easily drinkable - true, strictly speaking, but immaterial.

21 minutes ago, Lord Bookworm said:

and B: would make him 'interfere' (quote from Harmony), and would split the power into Shards, leaving him weaker and with an Intent that would leave his mind.

That's a big assumption you are making. Not only do we not know whether Adonalsium's interference would result in a self-Shattering of some sort, we also don't know whether he was "balanced" in the way Harmony is. Not all Shards have a perfect opposite in the way Ruin and Preservation did. Adonalsium's "divine hatred", his Odium, didn't necessarily have to be balanced by a "divine love", for example. So he might have been limited in the ratio of creation/destruction he did, while remaining free to act in other ways.

[CaptainRyan]

39 minutes ago, Argent said:

Professionals recommend you see a doctor if this lasts more than four hours.

I lol'd at this. Well played Argent!

Also, I agree with the rest of what Argent wrote. 

[Zmaray]

Hoid can access all magic systems stemming from Adonalsium wherever he is.

Perhaps it is because of what you said.

[CaptainRyan]

22 minutes ago, Gudbrand said:

Hoid can access all magic systems stemming from Adonalsium wherever he is.

Perhaps it is because of what you said.

Hi @Gudbrand, is there a WoB that states Hoid can do that or are you extrapolating from known information? 

[Argent]

1 hour ago, CaptainRyan said:

Hi @Gudbrand, is there a WoB that states Hoid can do that or are you extrapolating from known information? 

There is no WoB, and neither is the opinion a popular one. In fact, we know Hoid cannot access all magic systems, as he tried to make himself an Elantrian and failed. It is also likely that he needed the lerasium bead he stole from the chapter of the Well of Ascension to make himself into a Mistborn. 

[Beast_c_a_t]

First, I'll point out that we have already seen two examples of Adonalsium's investiture, and in both cases the investiture was in a natural form. Avaons in the Sixth of Dusk, and the pre-shard investiture of native non-human life on Roshar.

Second, Scandal is unique in the Cosmere, as the only shard world created after the shattering. This also means that the Metallic Arts are the only system of investiture that wasn't influenced by Adonalsium's prior investiture.

[Steeldancer]

There is also lightweaving which has to do with manipulation of subatomic particles 

[Stormlightning]

All of the forms of investiture are connected in that someone can only be Invested if they have 'cracks' or space in their spiritual/cognitive aspect, yes? I wonder if this is a result of the Shattering, or if this was natural to the magic system even before then.

[+Extesian]

Just a correction @The Flash, lightweaving manipulates wavelengths of light and sound, not subatomic particles.

And @Stormlightning you're right about cracks being needed. 

Quote

JEREMY

We know that Mistborn needed to Snap, and Surgebinders needed have the cracks in their souls filled. But what about the people in Warbreaker or Elantris? Is cracking and snapping only required on certain worlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

This is universal to the cosmere; however, in certain magic systems / on certain worlds, this is easier than others

I haven't seen the question raised of whether that is somehow due to the Shattering. Interesting thought. I feel it's natural to the Cosmere but I haven't seen anything proving it one way or another. 

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Just a correction @The Flash, lightweaving manipulates wavelengths of light and sound, not subatomic particles.

And @Stormlightning you're right about cracks being needed. 

I haven't seen the question raised of whether that is somehow due to the Shattering. Interesting thought. I feel it's natural to the Cosmere but I haven't seen anything proving it one way or another. 

I'm not disagreeing here, but the threshold on Nalthis must be ridiculously low. Every Nalthian is born with a breath. The only requirement of Awakening is getting enough, and anyone can give it away by learning the command. So do they gain the breath and snap during childbirth, or are they just conceived presnapped. 

[The One Who Connects]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not disagreeing here, but the threshold on Nalthis must be ridiculously low. Every Nalthian is born with a breath. The only requirement of Awakening is getting enough, and anyone can give it away by learning the command. So do they gain the breath and snap during childbirth, or are they just conceived presnapped. 

While there's been a few "Harmony made snapping during birth" theories around, I would actually liken Awakening to Hemalurgy in this regard. Breath, like Spikes, come with the Spiritweb connections prepackaged, bypassing the need for one to have snapped to make those connections to power.

[+Extesian]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm not disagreeing here, but the threshold on Nalthis must be ridiculously low. Every Nalthian is born with a breath. The only requirement of Awakening is getting enough, and anyone can give it away by learning the command. So do they gain the breath and snap during childbirth, or are they just conceived presnapped. 

Yeah absolutely, but I figure Endowment basically interfered with humans on Nalthis to have a crack in their spiritweb genetically (or, as you say, lowered the threshold Harmony-style). I actually thought Nalthis may not have that need at all until I found that WoB. It may have to do with the nature of Endowment and how Breath is 'sticky'. But either way no 'snapping' seems to be required, there must be a different way those cracks are made and them filled. I suspect it's purely genetics on a world where every person is invested. 

[Steeldancer]

8 hours ago, Extesian said:

Just a correction @The Flash, lightweaving manipulates wavelengths of light and sound, not subatomic particles.

And @Stormlightning you're right about cracks being needed. 

I haven't seen the question raised of whether that is somehow due to the Shattering. Interesting thought. I feel it's natural to the Cosmere but I haven't seen anything proving it one way or another. 

Uh, I am talking about yolish lightweaving, not the surge of illumination. Do we actually know how yolish lightweaving works?

[+Extesian]

4 hours ago, The Flash said:

Uh, I am talking about yolish lightweaving, not the surge of illumination. Do we actually know how yolish lightweaving works?

Aah fair enough, sorry From what I remember from Liar of Partinel, it's a stable moving image like what we've started to see of Illumination but add to it proper independence, an illusion that can carry acting largely like a person would. From my memory at least. But it still seems much more like manipulation of light than particles. 

That said, Brandon did say there was an original Yolen magic that involved splitting the atom but it was way overpowered. But no idea if it was part of the same system as Lightweaving

Edited May 23, 2017 by Extesian

[Steeldancer]

28 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Aah fair enough, sorry From what I remember from Liar of Partinel, it's a stable moving image like what we've started to see of Illumination but add to it proper independence, an illusion that can carry acting largely like a person would. From my memory at least. But it still seems much more like manipulation of light than particles. 

That said, Brandon did say there was an original Yolen magic that involved splitting the atom but it was way overpowered. But no idea if it was part of the same system as Lightweaving

I'm assuming that it is lightweaving and that nobody realizes what it actually does, in universe (in liar of partinel)

[Yata]

15 hours ago, Extesian said:

Yeah absolutely, but I figure Endowment basically interfered with humans on Nalthis to have a crack in their spiritweb genetically (or, as you say, lowered the threshold Harmony-style). I actually thought Nalthis may not have that need at all until I found that WoB. It may have to do with the nature of Endowment and how Breath is 'sticky'. But either way no 'snapping' seems to be required, there must be a different way those cracks are made and them filled. I suspect it's purely genetics on a world where every person is invested. 

I don't think there is the need of a crack at all. You could give your Breath to a random foreign guy and this guy will have your Breath and could use it to Awaken, regard of his past and soul

[+Extesian]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

I don't think there is the need of a crack at all. You could give your Breath to a random foreign guy and this guy will have your Breath and could use it to Awaken, regard of his past and soul

That's a good point Yata. Then all I can think of to be consistent with that WoB is that Breath, when it's given to you, creates the crack and immediately fills it. 

[Fezzik]

@Extesian, @Yata, in his Alcatraz vs. Evil Librarians series Sanderson draws a strong distinction between magic and science. Magic has some sort of prerequisites, like genetics or a cracked soul, while science, however unusual, can be operated by anyone.

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, john203 said:

Sanderson draws a strong distinction between magic and science. Magic has some sort of prerequisites, like genetics or a cracked soul, while science, however unusual, can be operated by anyone.

He also took potshots at someone for calling Awakening a science under that criteria

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Rhandric

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

 

[CaptainRyan]

4 hours ago, FiveLate said:

Technically light is made up of sub-atomic particles.  Bosons in particular (harhar).  Sound is particle vibration.    Not disagreeing, just being not picky.

https://xkcd.com/1475/