John203

How did hoid obtain Kelsier's memory coin?

17 posts in this topic

1 Why would Kelsier store (and as a consequence, lose) his memory of meeting the southern scadrians?

2 how did Hoid (someone Kelsier dislikes) get hold of it?

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Couple of relevent WoBs:

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 22nd, 2016

BYU Bookstore (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

I asked why Hoid gave the memory coin to Wax, what his motivation was (since it seemed to cast a more positive light on someone Hoid does not like), and

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon said he did it to correct a lie that was being perpetuated.

QUESTION

I said that I was still suspicious of Hoid,

BRANDON SANDERSON

to which he said I should be, as those two (Hoid and Kelsier) do not get along. He said that the memory uncovered a truth that Kelsier did not want to be known.

TAGS

 

 

Quote

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 24th, 2016

QUESTION

Did Kelsier fill copperminds for any reason other than sharing knowledge? Would he want to forget certain memories?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes and Yes. Those may not be causally related. You asked two separate questions and got two separate answers.

TAGS

 

I would guess that Hoid used Feruchemy to locate the Coppermind and then acquired it in Shadesmar. 

Edited by The Sovereign
Gahhh.... Formatting.
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Leading theory is Compounding copper allows you to multiply memories so it would mean there can be lots of these coins and Kelsier still has all his memories.

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27 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Leading theory is Compounding copper allows you to multiply memories so it would mean there can be lots of these coins and Kelsier still has all his memories.

It should work, though, there would be (very minute, mind) loss as compounding does have a ridiculously high upper limits (like Rashek's Atium-based immortality). I doubt there's a ton of these coins around, since, it just doesn't seem like the kind of story that Kelsier would want a lot of people to know, so all of this is a moot point...:P

Anyway. My best guess, OP, is that Hoid stole it from the Southerners who the Set captured or from one of the corpses in the Temple. How did he know what it is in it without losing said memory...probably Compounding, he's a Fullborn too, after all.

Edited by Kandra-in-disguise
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28 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

he's a Fullborn too, after all.

Definitely not confirmed. 

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43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Definitely not confirmed. 

There's more evidence for it than against at this point, I shouldn't have to tell you that.

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8 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

There's more evidence for it than against at this point, I shouldn't have to tell you that.

Logic dictates that there is no need to prove a negative. Confirmation is needed before we state even strong evidence as fact. 

There's is strong evidence he's Mistborn. There's nothing but speculation that he's a feruchemist. We just know he uses the same mechanic as F-Fortune. Not how. 

Edited by Calderis
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12 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

There's more evidence for it than against at this point, I shouldn't have to tell you that.

I know of exactly 3 total things pertaining to it that are not RAFO's.

1) A paraphased "he uses Feruchemy" to find out when/where he needs to be

2) A more recent, and verbatim entry saying it's the "underlying mechanic, and not necessarily Feruchemy"

3) He has Southern Scadrian Medallions

4) His prescience existed before the Mistborn books did, chronologically. And Chromium wasn't even discovered as an Allomantic metal until after the ascension of Harmony


1 is for it, but is overwritten by 2 since it is more recent and verbatim. 2 is more neutral, not really yes or no. 3 and 4 would imply no, since a Fullborn has no need of medallions and his power predates knowledge of the Feruchemical one. It's an implied yes, a neutral, and two implied no's

If you have some WoB that implies it better, please link to it so I can read it. Hoid is hardly my area of expertise

Edited by The One Who Connects
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2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

3) He has Southern Scadrian Medallions

Once again I have to ask for source. I do remember he has unkeyed metalminds but nothing about medallions.

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11 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Once again I have to ask for source. I do remember he has unkeyed Metalminds but nothing about medallions.

Ok, that one's my error for equating the two since there doesn't seem to be any other way of making unkeyed Metalminds that we know of except for the Medallions. (And the fact that I've used the words a bit interchangeably for this reason. guess it's a bad habit to do that)

Edited by The One Who Connects
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Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Ok, that one's my error for equating the two since there doesn't seem to be any other way of making unkeyed Metalminds that we know of except for the Medallions. (And the fact that I've used the words a bit interchangeably for this reason)

Set had unkeyed metalminds and did not have medallions (they only acquired them later when capturing Alik and the rest in the temple of Sovereign).

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Just now, Oversleep said:

Set had unkeyed Metalminds and did not have medallions (they only acquired them later when capturing Allik and the rest in the temple of Sovereign).

I mixed up unkeyed and unsealed again, didn't I?

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TBH, I partially forgot about where Hoid got his "fortune" from... It happens. Thank you.

25 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Set had unkeyed metalminds and did not have medallions (they only acquired them later when capturing Alik and the rest in the temple of Sovereign).

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that the only other unkeyed metalmind that the Set had is the golden bracelet Kelesina originally had and that Wayne gets from Wax later. Is there anything saying that Kelesina and the Set had unkeyed metalminds before they captured the Southerners?

Edited by Kandra-in-disguise
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On 11.5.2017 at 8:30 PM, Calderis said:

Logic dictates that there is no need to prove a negative

That is not true. Also a negative has to be proven (a nice and non-trivial example is the proof that Pi is not an algebraic number). "Untrue unless proven otherwise" is no valid concept, it is more like "Unaccepted unless proven to be true".

At this point we cannot say whether Hoid is a Feruchemist or not, though most likely he is not. To be one, he would need Terris sDNA or 16 hemalurgic spikes. Spikes he does not have and also would not use (the should be a WoB about the usage of H-spikes and Hoid), the sample of Hoids sDNA unfortunately is not available yet ;-)

So how did Hoid get the coin from Kelsier? My guess: He stole it from the Thief to give him another lesson...

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@Pattern the reason the phrasing I used exists is that generally speaking, nothing is true unless proven. 

In your example of Pi, you are not proving a negative, you are proving that Pi is non-algebraic. There is a big difference between saying "there is no (subject)" and "(subject does not operate on these pre-existing principles." 

With enough evidence a statement can be tentatively accepted without proof while subject to change, but without evidence any proposed statement is, by definition, false. 

Edited by Calderis
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8 hours ago, Calderis said:

With enough evidence a statement can be tentatively accepted without proof while subject to change, but without evidence any proposed statement is, by definition, false

Without evidence any proposed statement is, by definition, unproven - not false. You cannot prove anything with empirical evidence, by the way, but one counter example is enough to disprove a theory. A "theory" without evidence is a hypothesis - which in every real science is neither assumed as false nor as true - just as "to be proven yet". In short

true != unproven != false

Edited by Pattern
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1 minute ago, Pattern said:

Without evidence any proposed statement is, by definition, unproven - not false. You cannot prove anything with empirical evidence, by the way, but one counter example is enough to disprove a theory. A "theory" without evidence is a hypothesis - which in no real science is neither assumed as false nor as true - just as "to be proven yet". In short

true != unproven != false

I stand corrected. 

I apparently am an unintended proponent of the assuradness movement. 

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