Expanding Elantris

[kwirked]

I was re-reading Elantris and the Emporer's Soul and had a thought about how Elantris is tied to the AonDor, though maybe it's been hashed over already and I just couldn't find it. 

The shape of Elantris is that is Spirit, but over the course of the book we find out its (along with every other Aon) foundation is the shape of Arelon. We're also told that the power weakens the farther Elantrians get from Elantris.  

I'm wondering which way causation runs. 

Is the power weaker and the shape of the Aons dictated by the location of the investiture? Or does the physical manifestation of the investiture (the "alphabet's" basis in the geography) limit the powers reach?

Asked another way, what if someone decided to modify the basic Aon to include the archipelago of islands to the north and Teod into the design, then adjusted how Elantris was built to reflect the change? Would that then allow Elantrians to use their power in Teod? What about the rest of the world?

Isn't there a WOB that dominion and devotion have been mixed together? If I'm remembering that correctly, then since Shai and the Dakhor monks can use their abilities anywhere, it seems likely the limitation on the Elantrian use of Dor is self imposed - in this case a cognitive limitation.  Thoughts?

 

 

[Yata]

First of all, all' the Selish magic become weaker and weaker while you go far from your homeland. It's not something of AonDor alone.

AonDor in this regard is weird because It losts Power a lot of Faster than others.

This happen because the AonDor is boosted beyond the rightful power level from Elantris itself and the city's influence is really smaller compared to the real "AonDor's area".

For example the Power level exibited by Raoden Before he fixed Elantris or the One showed in Teod...are the same, Simply the right Power of AonDor without artificial boost.

[Khyrindor]

When Odium Splintered Devotion and Dominion, he locked their power in the Cognitive Realm, where it melded into what we know as the Dor. At some point, the Dor also began to permeate the landscape of Sel (as the Cognitive Realm is still reliant on position), which led to the Dor basing itself of of the map shapes. The reason the Dor is only powerful in some areas is because, well, that's where the Dor is trapped on the Cognitive side of things. Elantris likely has a larger spot of Dor, as does Fjordell and the rest. Perhaps the reason the Dakhor monks could use magic around Elantris is that they were still powering it with the Dor that was there, and the reason it doesn't work in Teod is because the landscape there lacks the Dor's presence. 

[kwirked]

@Yata -  are you sure? Neither Shai nor the monks seemed in any way impeded by the distance from their homeland - if there's some reference to that that I missed by all means please share.

@Khyrindor - ok.... so if there are pockets of Dor in Fjordell and MaiPon which the monks and Shai can tap into, respectively, then why can they continue to access those pockets at strength from a great distance and not the Elantrians? Why couldn't Elantris expand its Aons to include other pockets of the Dor?

The limitation for only the Elantrians strikes me a somewhat similar to Kaladin's forehead brand - if he thought about it differently, then it would be different (in his case, disappear).

Edited May 3, 2017 by kwirked
typo fixed

[Spoolofwhool]

In response to the main question: Modifying the base aon will not alter the locations where the power is usable. The aon simply shows the fundamental location built into the magic, it does not define it. 

 

Regarding the power loss discussion:

Personally I think that naturally, the different variations of the Selish manifestation of investiture all operate on a binary power level, surrounding a specific location. This specific location is centralized on the geographic shape in the symbology. In other words, while the basic symbol of the magic variation shows a location, the actual total location in which the magic can be used is larger than the shown location, with that location being the center of the total location. It is possible that the location is in fact the entire domain. Furthermore, when I say the system is binary, I mean that the power of the variation will be constant throughout the entire location it can be used. This is how Bloodsealing and Forgery seem to work outside of the showed location in their symbols without apparent diminishment of power.

Now this is where you go, "But Spool, AonDor gets weaker with distance from Arelon, how can you say it's binary?" You're right, but as I said, the binary thing is the natural state. AonDor, however, is not operating under natural conditions. As shown in Elantris, the city of Elantris is a gigantic power booster, artificially raising the power of AonDor in Arelon. This power boost however does weaken over distance, resulting in the observed lessening power of AonDor, which is actually its return to the natural power level, had Elantris not existed.

So overall, if you were to graph the power of normal variations of magic on Sel by region, you would observe a plateau over their location. If you were to graph AonDor, you would observe a spike over Elantris, which then decreases downwards as a function of distance until it reaches the boundaries of the location, at which point it drops to zero.

[Khyrindor]

2 hours ago, kwirked said:

@Yata -  are you sure? Neither Shai nor the monks seemed in any way impeded by the distance from their homeland - if there's some reference to that that I missed by all means please share.

@Khyrindor - ok.... so if there are pockets of Dor in Fjordell and MaiPon which the monks and Shai can tap into, respectively, then why can they continue to access those pockets at strength from a great distance and not the Elantrians? Why couldn't Elantris expand its Aons to include other pockets of the Dor?

The limitation for only the Elantrians strikes me a somewhat similar to Kaladin's forehead brand - if he thought about it differently, then it would be different (in his case, disappear).

If they went to areas that had the Dor around them, then I presume they would be able to. Similarly, if they brought the Dor with them with a pipeline, they would be able to operate. We've only seen Elantrians travel to Teod, where their power didn't work.

Another theory is that Elantrians constantly draw upon the Dor for their strength, while Dakhor could be drawing on their own strength, after being Initiated by the Dor.

[Yata]

19 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

If they went to areas that had the Dor around them, then I presume they would be able to.

Well no, we know the distance impact the Selish Magics' power, a Forger into Elantris will be unable to make a Seal works. Probably the Moon Scepter will help in this "inter-area Dor Usage" but it's just a speculation.

19 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

We've only seen Elantrians travel to Teod, where their power didn't work.

Actually Teod is fully into AonDor's Area. The AonDor works at its rightful power there. Simply they are too far from Elantris to benefit from the artificial boost. It's exactly the same power level Raoden displays in Elantris itself before the city's restoration (therefore when the Artificial boost didn't work)

Edited May 4, 2017 by Yata

[Khyrindor]

@Yata what I'm trying to theorize is why Elantrian's magic doesn't work in Teod, and why Dakhor does. I'm going to get into Secret History spoilers in here.

Elantrians need the Dor for their powers to work. This presumably means that there is a huge buildup of the Dor in the Cognitive Realm equivalent of Elantris, because the Aons work there.

Dakhor works in Arelon and Teod, but Elantrians need the Dor to draw upon in order for their power to work. 

Elantrians can live off the Dor's Investiture even off world, so long as they have built a pipeline of the Dor from Sel. We know this from Secret History (Or we think we do). This means that we can assume Elantrians can use their powers anywhere with the Dor.

Elantrians can't use their powers in Teod. I theorize that this is because there is no Dor around that part of Sel, otherwise Elantrians would have power to draw on. The Dakhor must have Investiture inside of them at all times instead of drawing on the Dor like the Elantrians, otherwise they wouldn't be able to use it in Teod, like the Elantrians.

Now, Teod is part of the Arelish culture, but no one from Teod becomes an Elantrian while living in Elantris. When you look at Aons, they always take the shape of the landscape of Arelon, not Teod. Teod is included in the culture of the continent, but not the magic. 

I think it's safe to assume that there is no Dor around Teod for Elantrians to draw on, but that they would be able to in areas of Fjordell that do have the Dor. I'm just stating what you know and then what I think we can extrapolate from that logically. I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but if you can back them up I'll believe you.

[Spoolofwhool]

@Khyrindor What are you referring to when you say Elantrians can't use their powers in Teod, when Elantris directly shows Elantrians using the AonDor in Teod? 

In any case, I disagree with your assessment that the Dor only works in some locations because of the concentration of power there. I think the Dor permeates the Cognitive Realm in a generally constant fashion, and it's the connection to a certain location by the specific magics which create the limitation of power loss. 

In any case, here's a WoB of interest.

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- the ones who aren’t interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? You don’t need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I’ve [written] them so that each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it’s stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they’re keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection--mostly Connection. So that means you can’t do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they’re drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they’re end-neutral, like Breath is, and don’t need any extra power.

[Source]

 

[BlackYeti]

13 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

Elantrians can't use their powers in Teod. I theorize that this is because there is no Dor around that part of Sel, otherwise Elantrians would have power to draw on. The Dakhor must have Investiture inside of them at all times instead of drawing on the Dor like the Elantrians, otherwise they wouldn't be able to use it in Teod, like the Elantrians.

@Spoolofwhool has already pointed out that Elantrians have been shown using AonDor in Teod. I would also take issue with your claim that the Dakhor use an internal source of Investiture rather than accessing the Dor. All of the Sellish magics are based around the Dor, Raoden even felt Dilaf accessing the Dor. This claim simply isn't supported by the text. The fact that the Dakhor do not appear to suffer from any reduction in their powers when in Teod, compared to when in Arelon, actually supports @Spoolofwhool's earlier idea of there being binary power levels. Either that or they have some other way of boosting their power.

13 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

Now, Teod is part of the Arelish culture, but no one from Teod becomes an Elantrian while living in Elantris. When you look at Aons, they always take the shape of the landscape of Arelon, not Teod. Teod is included in the culture of the continent, but not the magic. 

Actually, Teoish people can and do become Elantrians provided that they're living in Arelon. It's the reason that Hrathen's plan in the poisoning of Sarene worked so well: no one questioned that a Teoish woman had been taken by the Shaod.

Edited May 4, 2017 by BlackYeti

[akasketch]

Huh. This is an interesting quandary. Given the WoB on the different investiture types being due to Connection, I feel like if a group of Arelonite/Teoish Elantrians set up an embassy outside a given city in the shape of a Rao Aon based on that city and the surrounding area, it might end up acting like a cell tower for AonDor, allowing Elantrians to use the new base for Aons when within range of the embassy. 

I have no real proof for this, just a hunch. This would also require Elantrian AonDor research to dive into the "Why?" behind every Aon, allowing them to create/discover the new alphabet. 

[Spoolofwhool]

I think that would only work as long as it's in the region where AonDor functions, at which point it's just another power amplifier like Elantris. The thing is, I don't think Aons have any power outside of the region where AonDor functions.

[akasketch]

15 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I think that would only work as long as it's in the region where AonDor functions, at which point it's just another power amplifier like Elantris. The thing is, I don't think Aons have any power outside of the region where AonDor functions.

Ok. Then, doing that, could you theoretically expand the area where AonDor functions, and then create another embassy, and so on?

 

The thought that I'm having right now is, "How was Elantris created in the first place?" Given the way the city powers the Elantrians, I'm vaguely certain that it had to come before any Elantrians existed; thus we might be able to mimic the conditions of its creation in other cities, thus expending AonDor's influence. 

 

I think the key key here is that it would have to be an Arelonite *embassy,* meaning the culture is more prevalent there and the Connection to Arelon is spread,  and a proper Rao Aon based on the city that the Embassy is near and the surrounding landscape. Thinking about it that way, I think we are then creating a whole new form on AonDor, not expanding the old one, so we don't need to be close to the original Elantris. If you're right, however, my first question still stands. 

 

This is a HUGE question for Brandon, to be sure! One that I don't think is spoiler-y and is unlikely to be RAFO'd. Unless Arelon wants to expand its borders in the future. 

[Yata]

56 minutes ago, akasketch said:

Ok. Then, doing that, could you theoretically expand the area where AonDor functions, and then create another embassy, and so on?

Probably the area will be the same, maybe it will simply boost the AonDor in the sorround (as Elantris did) beyond its right powerlevel.

57 minutes ago, akasketch said:

The thought that I'm having right now is, "How was Elantris created in the first place?" Given the way the city powers the Elantrians, I'm vaguely certain that it had to come before any Elantrians existed; thus we might be able to mimic the conditions of its creation in other cities, thus expending AonDor's influence. 

Yeah the problem of "Elantris or Elantrian" as starting point is really weird. But notice the Elantrian could use their power also without the Elantris's Aon at work. We saw this in the book, simply they Aon will have their rightful power without the artificial boost Elantris provides. Raoden's Aondor before the Elantris's fix and Aondor in Teod are example of this.

 

It's unsure but probably an Elantrian far from Arelon when the Chasm appeared will avoid the Reod.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, akasketch said:

Given the way the city powers the Elantrians, I'm vaguely certain that it had to come before any Elantrians existed

Not quite.

Quote

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon—drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead 'discovered.'

---

1 hour ago, akasketch said:

If you're right, however, my first question still stands: "How was Elantris created in the first place?"

See here.

Quote

If you consider it, it makes logical sense that the Aons would be tied to ELANTRIS and Arelon, yet would work without them. The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn’t have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

So Elantrians had to exist to learn the Aonic language, which they had to do in order to know what shape to make the City

Edit: sorta ninja'd by Yata

Edited May 10, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[akasketch]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

Probably the area will be the same, maybe it will simply boost the AonDor in the sorround (as Elantris did) beyond its right powerlevel.

Yeah the problem of "Elantris or Elantrian" as starting point is really weird. But notice the Elantrian could use their power also without the Elantris's Aon at work. We saw this in the book, simply they Aon will have their rightful power without the artificial boost Elantris provides. Raoden's Aondor before the Elantris's fix and Aondor in Teod are example of this.

 

It's unsure but probably an Elantrian far from Arelon when the Chasm appeared will avoid the Reod.

 

6 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Not quite.

---

See here.

So Elantrians had to exist to learn the Aonic language, which they had to do in order to know what shape to make the City

Edit: sorta ninja'd by Yata

 

Man. I knew I was missing something. And here I was getting all excited that we might find a whole other Aon alphabet. 

In other words, we can put another "Elantris" in Teod, but not much else. The good news is that we don't need to base it off of that city's geography. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, akasketch said:

And here I was getting all excited that we might find a whole other Aon alphabet.

Well, Dakhor bone shapes are reminiscent of the old Fjordell alphabet... Lets wait until Elantris 2 when we learn more about Dakhor before throwing the idea away altogether.

I'm curious what building another Elantris would do though, since it acts as a power amplifier it would expand the area where AonDor is strong, but would it also expand the area where people can be taken by the Shaod? I doubt it since the Shaod predates the city, but who knows?

[Oversleep]

Wait, wait, wait. I've only realized that there is something wrong.

As the WoBs of @The One Who Connects say:

1. Only Elantrians can draw Aons (so it means they must have built Elantris. Nobody else could make it work):

   On 10.05.2017 at 6:29 PM, The One Who Connects said:

   The Aons had to exist before Elantris–otherwise, the original Elantrians wouldn’t have known the shape to make the city. Their study of AonDor taught them a method for amplifying Aon power.

2. To become Elantrian you have to be taken by Shaod:

   On 10.05.2017 at 6:29 PM, The One Who Connects said:

   Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system.

So far it means that Shaod must have existed before Elantris. But there is this WoB:

Quote

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

source

which makes it all circular reasoning since to have Shaod you need Elantris and you can't build Elantris without Shaod having already existed.

[The One Who Connects]

36 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Wait, wait, wait. I've only realized that there is something wrong.

As the WoBs of @The One Who Connects say:

1. Only Elantrians can draw Aons (so it means they must have built Elantris. Nobody else could make it work):
2. To become Elantrian you have to be taken by Shaod:

So far it means that Shaod must have existed before Elantris. But there is this WoB:

which makes it all circular reasoning since to have Shaod you need Elantris and you can't build Elantris without Shaod having already existed.

Well, that's an issue. What do you think this could mean/imply?

[+Extesian]

1 hour ago, Oversleep said:

Wait, wait, wait. I've only realized that there is something wrong.

As the WoBs of @The One Who Connects say:

1. Only Elantrians can draw Aons (so it means they must have built Elantris. Nobody else could make it work):
2. To become Elantrian you have to be taken by Shaod:

So far it means that Shaod must have existed before Elantris. But there is this WoB:

which makes it all circular reasoning since to have Shaod you need Elantris and you can't build Elantris without Shaod having already existed.

I'd wondered about this before but I must admit I thought there was a pretty simple explanation. If I've missed something subtle (or obvious) let me know.

I figure the Shaod is a single, transformative event whereby the Dor, trapped in the Cognitive Realm and bursting to get out, was channelled through the mega-Aon that was Elantris to suddenly change the person to 'full' Elantrian. I don't believe the Shaod pre-dated Elantris, I think what would happen was, like with other magic systems, the magic users (and we still don't know how their 'chosen') would realize they could draw Aons magically and the more they did so, the closer the became to what we now consider Elantrians - ie the increasing use of investiture by drawing Aons would invest them and make them become more powerful. I think the point of Elantris was that it accelerated this process, and made it into one sudden transformation. When Elantris failed enough of that investiture was being channelled through to begin the sudden transformation, but not enough to complete it.

That was wordy. I'm saying I think pre-Elantris there was no Shaod, or at least the way we know it - there was something that triggered the ability to use Aons but it was a slow process of becoming more invested. During this time, someone realised they could supercharge it by building Elantris, which hijacked the normal, slow process. To use a stupid analogy, 'Elantrians' used to walk their way to being full Elantrian, slowly using the Aons. Elantris was like cutting off their legs but giving them a car to drive there. The Reod was stopping the supply of petrol. If that's right, it's not circular reasoning, it's just the mechanism that enables someone to use Aons went from a natural one to a supercharged one, and when that supercharged one failed, it collapsed the whole system.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Extesian

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I'd wondered about this before but I must admit I thought there was a pretty simple explanation. If I've missed something subtle (or obvious) let me know.

I figure the Shaod is a single, transformative event whereby the Dor, trapped in the Cognitive Realm and bursting to get out, was channelled through the mega-Aon that was Elantris to suddenly change the person to 'full' Elantrian. I don't believe the Shaod pre-dated Elantris, I think what would happen was, like with other magic systems, the magic users (and we still don't know how their 'chosen') would realize they could draw Aons magically and the more they did so, the closer the became to what we now consider Elantrians - ie the increasing use of investiture by drawing Aons would invest them and make them become more powerful. I think the point of Elantris was that it accelerated this process, and made it into one sudden transformation. When Elantris failed enough of that investiture was being channelled through to begin the sudden transformation, but not enough to complete it.

That was wordy. I'm saying I think pre-Elantris there was no Shaod, or at least the way we know it - there was something that triggered the ability to use Aons but it was a slow process of becoming more invested. During this time, someone realised they could supercharge it by building Elantris, which hijacked the normal, slow process. To use a stupid analogy, 'Elantrians' used to walk their way to being full Elantrian, slowly using the Aons. Elantris was like cutting off their legs but giving them a car to drive there. The Reod was stopping the supply of petrol. If that's right, it's not circular reasoning, it's just the mechanism that enables someone to use Aons went from a natural one to a supercharged one, and when that supercharged one failed, it collapsed the whole system.

So basically AonDor is just the ability to use Aons born into someone, and overtime and use they would be what we've come to think of as Elantrians, which is basically just an extreme AonDor savant. 

Elantris created the Shaod as we know it and amps up the natural magic system to the point where when someone's natural AonDor ability manifests, they get thrown to Savanthood damnation near instantly.

That's actually exceptionally believable. 

[+Extesian]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So basically AonDor is just the ability to use Aons born into someone, and overtime and use they would be what we've come to think of as Elantrians, which is basically just an extreme AonDor savant. 

Elantris created the Shaod as we know it and amps up the natural magic system to the point where when someone's natural AonDor ability manifests, they get thrown to Savanthood damnation near instantly.

That's actually exceptionally believable. 

Thank you for wording that more concisely than my TWO attempts to do so but yes that's my belief, with the problem that, during the time Elantris was broken, those living in the area were unable to take it slowly, a huge but abortive change was forced on them

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

Thank you for wording that more concisely than my TWO attempts to do so but yes that's my belief, with the problem that, during the time Elantris was broken, those living in the area were unable to take it slowly, a huge but abortive change was forced on them

And it kind of makes a weird sense. Because it still would have been trying to function. So it made them savants of a broken system. Like if there were an allomantic savant of a bad alloy. I really like that explanation. 

[akasketch]

On 5/15/2017 at 6:05 PM, Calderis said:

So basically AonDor is just the ability to use Aons born into someone, and overtime and use they would be what we've come to think of as Elantrians, which is basically just an extreme AonDor savant. 

Elantris created the Shaod as we know it and amps up the natural magic system to the point where when someone's natural AonDor ability manifests, they get thrown to Savanthood damnation near instantly.

That's actually exceptionally believable. 

So now the question is, can we build ChayShan, Dakhor, or Forgery catalyst cities that do something similar?

Although, a Dakhor catalyst city might require an entire city of death; the walls would probably have to be bone themselves. Gosh that's frightening. 

Now that I think about it, I don't know that you can do that for Forgery. It's less of an end-positive Investiture and more of an End-Neutral. Also, it's something that is learned only, not channeled like the others. 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, akasketch said:

So now the question is, can we build ChayShan, Dakhor, or Forgery catalyst cities that do something similar?

Although, a Dakhor catalyst city might require an entire city of death; the walls would probably have to be bone themselves. Gosh that's frightening. 

Now that I think about it, I don't know that you can do that for Forgery. It's less of an end-positive Investiture and more of an End-Neutral. Also, it's something that is learned only, not channeled like the others. 

I think it would be possible, but impractical for almost all of them. The exception being ChayShan. 

ChayShan is a martial art. The focus of all the magics on forms makes sense, but in ChayShan, where the forms are fluid movement forms, like kata, it would be hard to manifest as a permanent structure.

If someone truly understood the way the Dor functions, and forgery, they could feasible, but not practically, create either a massive soul stamp or a series of interconnected stamps to effect MaiPon itself and boost the effect of all forgery. 

Dahkor has a similar runic structure to AonDor, but seems to require an element of sacrifice. So building a massive structure on the scale of Elantris seems like it would require something approaching a genocide.

AonDor on the other hand, needs you to draw the Aons. So the practicality of its use lends itself towards the creation of a permanent amplifier much more simply than any of the other magics on Sel.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Calderis