Heraldic Hatred

[Radiant_Jaeger]

I hate the Heralds. From stupid self deprecating Shallash to abusive and misled Naln. Every single one of them is a traitor of the highest magnitude that deserves a fate worse than Sadeas, after not only did they abandon a friend to a fate far worse than death, they LIED about it. No. No forgiveness for Naln after Edgedancer from THIS angry reader.

Only Taln is exempt from my anger, someone who held out for 4500 years of torture suffering the fate of TEN people, but for one man... I can't WAIT for him to come to his senses, because he's going to have one HELL of a problem with those who left him behind.

Can someone please give me a reason that they should not be universally reviled by every single reader of the SA!? Pity is not acceptable in my opiion, I wouldn't have care if they had ALL given up the Oathpact, but they left Taln behind. Sacrificed him, while they went on to have their minds break NOT because of 4500 years of torture, but because they were just too irresponsible and stupid to hold it together.

*Takes deep breaths* I could be wrong, but since we have a WoB that says

Quote

The Heralds are all insane

 

I don't know why they deserve anything good coming to them.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[galendo]

I don't know if they "deserve" anything good, but I think it's kind of hard to blame them, too.  I mean, they basically suffered and sacrificed time and again, and eventually they just couldn't handle it anymore.  (I haven't read Edgedancer yet, so I can't comment on that, but I'm not sure I'd expect anything good to come to them in the future, either.)

I'm not sure this is a perfect analogy, but...it's a little bit like resorting to cannibalism after being lost at sea (or stranded in a snowy mountain or something.  No other food available).  You don't do it week one (hopefully no one's dead yet, but maybe some are).  Not week two, either.  You make it through week three, but by now you're really hungry.  Maybe you hold out through week four, too...but eventually you give in.  What would be deplorable at the beginning becomes more understandable as time wears on without hope of rescue.

I imagine it's the same for the Heralds, too.  What would be deplorable after the first Desolation, or the second, or the third, becomes...harder to judge after the twentieth or the fortieth.  Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

On 4/30/2017 at 11:22 PM, galendo said:

I don't know if they "deserve" anything good, but I think it's kind of hard to blame them, too.  I mean, they basically suffered and sacrificed time and again, and eventually they just couldn't handle it anymore.  (I haven't read Edgedancer yet, so I can't comment on that, but I'm not sure I'd expect anything good to come to them in the future, either.)

I'm not sure this is a perfect analogy, but...it's a little bit like resorting to cannibalism after being lost at sea (or stranded in a snowy mountain or something.  No other food available).  You don't do it week one (hopefully no one's dead yet, but maybe some are).  Not week two, either.  You make it through week three, but by now you're really hungry.  Maybe you hold out through week four, too...but eventually you give in.  What would be deplorable at the beginning becomes more understandable as time wears on without hope of rescue.

I imagine it's the same for the Heralds, too.  What would be deplorable after the first Desolation, or the second, or the third, becomes...harder to judge after the twentieth or the fortieth.  Don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

 I'm not sure the cannibalism analogy works, its a much different kind of betrayal. Its not like the sailors made an all powerful magical oath with their 9 best friends that they would endure the hunger

Edited May 7, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[galendo]

Just now, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Don't judge them unless I've been in their shoes? That doesn't work in this case. And I'm not sure the cannibalism analogy works, its a much different kind of betrayal. Its not like the sailors made an all powerful magical oath with their 9 best friends that they would endure the hunger no matter what. Lol

Well, I'm not saying that you can literally follow in their footsteps.  Don't be so quick to judge, I guess is what I'm saying.

I'll freely admit the cannibalism analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that thoughts, ideals, and morals can change as time goes on and circumstances change.  It's not clear that there was any sort of endgame in sight for the Heralds.  If there was -- if Honor had said to them "Hey, I've got a plan.  I just need some time.  Hold out for thirty Desolations and it'll all be over" then that's one thing, and I'd judge them more harshly for breaking faith.  But if it was just, "Hey guys, keep on suffering.  How long?  Oh, indefinitely.  Just keep hanging in there" then I'm way more sympathetic.  Remember, nothing lasts forever.  The Oathpact was always doomed to end.  If Honor and the Heralds didn't have an endgame in mind, then not only was it doomed to end, but it was pretty much doomed to end precisely in the way it did -- with the Heralds eventually saying, "I've had enough!"

[Radiant_Jaeger]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Well, I'm not saying that you can literally follow in their footsteps.  Don't be so quick to judge, I guess is what I'm saying.

I'll freely admit the cannibalism analogy isn't perfect, but the point is that thoughts, ideals, and morals can change as time goes on and circumstances change.  It's not clear that there was any sort of endgame in sight for the Heralds.  If there was -- if Honor had said to them "Hey, I've got a plan.  I just need some time.  Hold out for thirty Desolations and it'll all be over" then that's one thing, and I'd judge them more harshly for breaking faith.  But if it was just, "Hey guys, keep on suffering.  How long?  Oh, indefinitely.  Just keep hanging in there" then I'm way more sympathetic.  Remember, nothing lasts forever.  The Oathpact was always doomed to end.  If Honor and the Heralds didn't have an endgame in mind, then not only was it doomed to end, but it was pretty much doomed to end precisely in the way it did -- with the Heralds eventually saying, "I've had enough!"

My problem isn't that they gave up. My problem is that they left someone behind, and then didn't even have the decency to hold the world (Or THEMSELVES) together in his absence.

[Calderis]

Everyone speaks about the Heralds insanity not effecting Taln and about nothing but the betrayal... That WoB says all the Heralds are insane. Go and reread the SA Prologue, Kalak was already cracking and he observes that Jezrien is too. They were already insane when they broke the Oathpact and betrayed Taln. Taln was probably already insane in his own way before the 4500 years of torture so he's probably a huge mess (which why I think the man call Taln is definitely Taln). 

Talk to Psychologists and you'll learn that everything someone does who has any form of Psychosis makes rational sense. Everything. It only seems crazy because we can't see or hear the stimulus that's creating the reaction. 

My point in all of this is, while I understand your anger, you're judging the actions of mentally unstable people from the viewpoint of an outsider. No, what they did wasn't acceptable as we see it, but we can't understand what it was like for them, not only physically, but mentally.

I'm sure that some of them are more lucid than others and therefore more culpable. I'm also fairly certain that some of them have more lucid moments in which they probably hate themselves for what they have done and would fully agree with your anger. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Calderis

[Radiant_Jaeger]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Everyone speaks about the Heralds insanity not effecting Taln and about nothing but the betrayal... That WoB says all the Heralds are insane. Go and reread the SA Prologue, Kalak was already cracking and he observes that Jezrien is too. They were already insane when they broke the Oathpact and betrayed Taln. Taln was probably already insane in his own way before the 4500 years of torture so he's probably a huge mess (which why I think the man call Taln is definitely Taln). 

Talk to Psychologists and you'll learn that everything someone does who has any form of Psychosis makes rational sense. Everything. It only seems crazy because we can't see or hear the stimulus that's creating the reaction. 

My point in all of this is, while I understand your anger, you're judging the actions of mentally unstable people from the viewpoint of an outsider. No, what they did wasn't acceptable as we see it, but we can't understand what it was like for them, not only physically, but mentally.

I'm sure that some of them are more lucid than others and therefore more culpable. I'm also fairly certain that some of them have more lucid moments in which they probably hate themselves for what they have done and would fully agree with your anger. 

Well I thought Taln's insanity was justified because of the 4500 years. The rest have had time to fix themselves which we know 

Spoiler

Is possible from edgedancer because all it takes is Lift going up to Naln to make him realize what an cremhole he's been, not to under value what Lift did.

So it IS the heralds fault if something like that could make them see again

[Calderis]

@Radiant_Jaeger The events in edgedancer may have made him realize he's wrong about his reasons for killing proto-radiants, and denial of the desolation, but I don't believe for a moment he's "fixed." mental illness doesn't go away just because it's recognized. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

@Radiant_Jaeger The events in edgedancer may have made him realize he's wrong about his reasons for killing proto-radiants, and denial of the desolation, but I don't believe for a moment he's "fixed." mental illness doesn't go away just because it's recognized. 

See I don't think that them being broken was as bad as a full blown mental illness because if they can make themselves see clearly and realize that the world did in fact need their help for the last 4500 years then they could have done so much more to help prepare. But rather then DO that they hid their heads in the sand, and actively worked against the forces that would help the world such as new Surgebinders and who knows what else. Ishar and Naln are culpable for sure, probably Shallash as well since I bet she's destroyed some pretty useful information. If they had gone off on their own and just wallowed and despaired.

I guess my issue is having a mental is NOT an excuse to do wrong.

[Yata]

I think you are too hard with them.

They last as long as they could and when they reached the critical point, they left.

For them neither the Death is an option, probably they would try the suicide if possibile.

This is from their point of view. If we Simply look at their result, thanks to their action, Roshar managed to have the longest safe timeframe from the Shards' arrive.

Sure they hide their action, but we don't know the reason...maybe they have a good reason for doing It. 

[Calderis]

I do think it's mental illness, and no that's not an excuse, but you have to understand the way that mental illness functions. 

About a year ago a story hit the news about a father who nearly murdered his daughter. He was described as an exceptionally loving father, who wrote songs for her and played them for her on his guitar. He was schizophrenic and had taken his meds religiously for years. For some reason they stopped working, and while the mother and daughter were napping he picked up his daughter, threw her out of the window and went outside and nearly beat her to death. When he was arrested he was trying to explain that he had to send his little girl to the sky. He's now in a mental health facility and for his sake I hope he never has to face what he did, because honestly how could anyone live with that? 

Now I don't think the Heralds are that severe obviously, but the function of mental illness clouds the ability to distinguish belief from reality. Nale's complete lack of emotion shows that there is more going on than simple denial. Being confronted by everything in a way that cannot be explained away by his perceived reality caused him to face what he's done, and it also caused an emotional outpouring. As good as that realization is, it's also dangerous. He's going to be very fragile mentally. Part of him is going to want to continue on as normal, and the other part is going to reject that. He's going to be at war with himself and unsure of what to trust as real. Nale is going to be erratic and dangerous.

His past behavior obviously cannot be swept away and excused, but his level of actual responsibility for his actions is not a cut and dry answer. Mental illness never is. It's complicated and confusing and completely unfair. The people suffering are victims just as much as those they harm. 

[Farnsworth]

I actually thing there is something Realmatic going on. Remember how your spiritweb has to be a bit broken for a spren to bond with you? With an ordinary human with a broken spiritweb breaks, they have a Cognitive and Physical aspect as well, so one third of them is injured. When a Cognitive shadow has their spiritweb broken, one half of them is injured. So when their spiritweb broke, as it must have during Damnation, they were more affected by it than an ordinary human.

[Blightsong]

25 minutes ago, Figberts said:

I actually thing there is something Realmatic going on. Remember how your spiritweb has to be a bit broken for a spren to bond with you? With an ordinary human with a broken spiritweb breaks, they have a Cognitive and Physical aspect as well, so one third of them is injured. When a Cognitive shadow has their spiritweb broken, one half of them is injured. So when their spiritweb broke, as it must have during Damnation, they were more affected by it than an ordinary human.

If anything the Herald's mental states are better then they should realistically be after millennia of torture. They should all be incoherently, hopelessly insane (like Taln) based on what we know of how humans handle torture. Especially over such an unnaturally long time span.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

41 minutes ago, Figberts said:

I actually thing there is something Realmatic going on. Remember how your spiritweb has to be a bit broken for a spren to bond with you? With an ordinary human with a broken spiritweb breaks, they have a Cognitive and Physical aspect as well, so one third of them is injured. When a Cognitive shadow has their spiritweb broken, one half of them is injured. So when their spiritweb broke, as it must have during Damnation, they were more affected by it than an ordinary human.

I like this. Maybe the reason for them all going against their principles is an outside influence at work.

[Itchy Savant]

First off I would like to point out, that no one has mentioned that it wasn't taln's choice to go back. He died. He may very well have suggested the others give it up, he may have done the same thing had he not died. Just because he endured for so long doesn't mean he would have if he had the choice.  

 

Also I like what @Figberts and @Radiant_Jaeger are getting at. Perhaps the oathpact can't be broken.  They have been undergoing torture this entire time to the point of them going insane, and in many cases against what they stand for. The realization in a moment of lucidity would be pretty torturous on top of it all.  Seems kind of like a self fullfiling prophecy almost (might not be the right term)

[galendo]

22 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

My problem isn't that they gave up. My problem is that they left someone behind, and then didn't even have the decency to hold the world (Or THEMSELVES) together in his absence.

Okay, I think I get what you're saying.  It's certainly rather strange that they didn't even try to keep the peace or anything like that.  No real excuses there.  (Though I guess Nalan going around killing random Radiants could be considered keeping the peace, after a fashion.)

But as far as leaving Taln behind, it's worth noting that they didn't really have a choice in the matter.  First and foremost, Taln had already died, so he couldn't be invited to abandon the Oathpact.  If they had stabbed him in the back or something, I'd be more critical, but he died for reasons beyond their control.  Second, Ishar thought figured that at least one of them had to be bound to the Oathpact for it to hold.  It's sort of like...well, I know you didn't like the cannibalism example, but it's sort of like drawing straws to see who has to die so the others can live.  Only in this case, Taln was already dead -- fate had already dealt him the short straw.

[Vissy]

OP: Taln, is that you?

Edited May 2, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[thegatorgirl00]

10 hours ago, galendo said:

Okay, I think I get what you're saying.  It's certainly rather strange that they didn't even try to keep the peace or anything like that.  No real excuses there.  (Though I guess Nalan going around killing random Radiants could be considered keeping the peace, after a fashion.)

Is it really the Herald's place to try and keep the peace? Humanity stayed together for so long because they were fighting a common enemy. After the Desolations ended, humanity would have started to break apart and fight each other. The Heralds would basically become all powerful dictators in the name of keeping peace. Is that actually moral? 

Also, I have a hard time believing that the Heralds really knew what they were getting into when they agreed to the Oathpact. I find it more likely they were desperate enough to agree to anything to try and save humanity without understanding the consequences for them. 

[VirtuousTraveller]

I'm more curious about that moment before the prologue, the one we haven't seen yet.  The one where we see what exactly a "victory" over the voidbringers actually entails.  Did it involve the complete and total destruction of every last void-bonded creature on Roshar?  Did it involve the defeat of some kind of champion?  Was this most recent victory different than desolations in the past?

I'm even more curious about the moment after the prologue, not in this current cycle of desolation, but in the desolations of the past.  Are the Heralds dramatically ripped back into their other realm?  Does this happen immediately or do they have time to help rebuild the world?  Do they make a conscious choice to return?  How often do all but one of the Heralds stay alive?

Once we have this information, then I'll react emotionally to these things we call Heralds =)

[dantlee]

38 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I'm more curious about that moment before the prologue, the one we haven't seen yet.  The one where we see what exactly a "victory" over the voidbringers actually entails.  Did it involve the complete and total destruction of every last void-bonded creature on Roshar?  Did it involve the defeat of some kind of champion?  Was this most recent victory different than desolations in the past?

I'm even more curious about the moment after the prologue, not in this current cycle of desolation, but in the desolations of the past.  Are the Heralds dramatically ripped back into their other realm?  Does this happen immediately or do they have time to help rebuild the world?  Do they make a conscious choice to return?  How often do all but one of the Heralds stay alive?

Once we have this information, then I'll react emotionally to these things we call Heralds =)

We do already have the answers to some of those questions. There is a WoB that if the heralds linger for too long after a desolation ends, a new one will begin.

It's strongly implied in the prologue that if they die, they're sent to damnation/braize automatically. So the remaining heralds that survive have to choose to return to damnation/braize (though it's still unclear how that process actually works; my guess is that they worldhop/go through shadesmar), which they didn't do last time. It's also clearly stated in the prologue that it's very rare for most/all of the heralds to survive a desolation. 

On the topic of OP's post; I do agree with others that you're being way too harsh on the heralds. If you'd ever spoken to a victim of torture (I have unfortunately spoken to and interviewed many in the course of my professional life), you'd know that extended periods of physical and emotional distress, often with very little human interaction, can severely damage - sometimes permanently - one's mental state. I've seen previously courageous, outspoken, and self-sacrificing individuals become deathly afraid of even leaving their own homes to go to the supermarket after enduring months of torture. I just don't think you understand how deeply that kind of experience can storm someone up (and I pray you never have to). Now imagine having to endure several millennia's worth of torture, over and over again, and the few moments of respite you ever get are to fight a brutal, total war that usually wipes out most of the planet's population and civilizations, after which you have to willingly volunteer yourself for several thousand more years of torture. I think even the strongest-willed human beings would break at some point, just as the heralds have. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by dantlee

[Radiant_Jaeger]

On 5/2/2017 at 10:09 AM, dantlee said:

We do already have the answers to some of those questions. There is a WoB that if the heralds linger for too long after a desolation ends, a new one will begin.

It's strongly implied in the prologue that if they die, they're sent to damnation/braize automatically. So the remaining heralds that survive have to choose to return to damnation/braize (though it's still unclear how that process actually works; my guess is that they worldhop/go through shadesmar), which they didn't do last time. It's also clearly stated in the prologue that it's very rare for most/all of the heralds to survive a desolation. 

On the topic of OP's post; I do agree with others that you're being way too harsh on the heralds. If you'd ever spoken to a victim of torture (I have unfortunately spoken to and interviewed many in the course of my professional life), you'd know that extended periods of physical and emotional distress, often with very little human interaction, can severely damage - sometimes permanently - one's mental state. I've seen previously courageous, outspoken, and self-sacrificing individuals become deathly afraid of even leaving their own homes to go to the supermarket after enduring months of torture. I just don't think you understand how deeply that kind of experience can storm someone up (and I pray you never have to). Now imagine having to endure several millennia's worth of torture, over and over again, and the few moments of respite you ever get are to fight a brutal, total war that usually wipes out most of the planet's population and civilizations, after which you have to willingly volunteer yourself for several thousand more years of torture. I think even the strongest-willed human beings would break at some point, just as the heralds have. 

They've had the last 4500 years to recover from their torment maybe it can't be done on their own though maybe they need the words of a Radiant to fill their cracked cognitive or spiritual webs. Although nstead of helping the world they (the ones we know of) spent that timeworking against those who we know can fight the voidbringers, (I.e. Ishar and Naln killing KRs)

Perhaps recovery is beyond reach, but why was Lift able to make Naln see the light? After all that time. They failed, not only themselves and Taln, but the world as well, hopefully they come out of it before it's too late with KRs help

Edited May 9, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[Calderis]

You're telling people with extreme PTSD to just get better. You can treat and help PTSD but it's learning to deal. There's no getting better and moving on. You learn to function with a new normal, if you can.

You don't undo permanent damage. And immortality just means you get to stay damaged without respite. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

You're telling people with extreme PTSD to just get better. You can treat and help PTSD but it's learning to deal. There's no getting better and moving on. You learn to function with a new normal, if you can.

You don't undo permanent damage. And immortality just means you get to stay damaged without respite. 

First of all we Know they can get better 

Spoiler

Because Naln's redemption in Edgedancer although maybe their is something magical about their insanity that only the Ideals of a radiant can break.

PTSD is traumatic yes, but no mental illness provides an excuse not to live your life to its fullest potential. It doesn't give them the excuse to not help. Thousands of people have recovered from PTSD and gone to live productive lives on their own.

[Calderis]

"recovered" is a greater way to say adapted. And concerning edgedancer as I've already stated

Spoiler

Realization does not mean recovery. He will have changed his behavior some, but the idea that he is somehow cured is baffling to me. We see him react strongly, and essentially flee. What about that is redeeming? He's been forced to face his delusion. It doesn't mean they've stopped. 

 

[Yata]

Nale has a reaction there and probably He will stop to do that specific thing as It's useless.

But this doesn't change him. He would still be the ultimate Law incarnate. Someone Who could kill a child for a minor crime if the law tell him to do It.

Their Minds work in a twisted way but they are not generally idiots (also if maybe some of them are)

Edited May 5, 2017 by Yata