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CaptainRyan

Why didn't he stick around?

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Hey 17th Shard,

So far we have seen, on screen, three (3) Vessel's cognitive shadows (Leras, Ati, and Tanavast). We know of at least three (3) other shattered Shards (Devotion, Dominion, and Ambition) and it would be reasonable, I think, to assume that their cognitive shadows existed at some point after their Shattering. 

Special cases:
1. Leras: he did some wonky stuff with his "mind" to trap Ati. Also, I think Ati (Ruin) murdered the scattered remnants of Leras' cognitive shadow once released from the Well.
2. Tanavast: he seems to have merged his cognitive shadow with a massive spren (the Stormfather) and I am not sure I fully understand the implications of that.

Caveats:
1. Devotion, Dominion: as far as I am aware, we do not know what happened to the cognitive shadows of these shards. It is possible they are still around though I am unaware of any evidence, even hints, that might support this conclusion. I would argue that without further WoBs or book reveals it would be safe to assume that Devotion and Dominion's cognitive shadows are gone, most likely murdered by Odium after he shattered them. EDIT: Arcanum Unbounded seems to make it clear that Odium forcibly Beyonded (it's a verb, right?) Dominion and Devotion's cognitive shadows. Thanks for the reminder on that!
2. Ambition: might exist because Odium was not around when Ambition finally bit the dust (right?).

Obvious case:
1. Ati: he lasted in the cognitive realm just long enough for Kelsier to punch him, utter something cryptic, and then vanish to the Beyond. Why? Why didn't Ati stick around? Plot wise it would have been disastrous as he knows wayyyyy too much and would have ruined (pun intended) a lot of the plot of the Cosmere. But, ignoring that, what was the reason for Ati to vanish to the Beyond so quickly?

 

Edited by CaptainRyan
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Ati, before Ruin, was supposedly (as said in the letter) a nice guy. At the end he was basically just riding the power, his true personality trapped under an ocean of destructive influence. I could see him deciding to pass instead of live with that.

Edited by Blightsong
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Arcanum Unbounded implies that what Odium does forces the soul of the Vessel to pass Beyond. The essay on Sel talks about how Devotion and Dominion had 'their minds ripped away, their souls sent into the Beyond' so they didn't have a choice and Ambition might be in a similar situation. Ati as noted might not have wanted to hang around after millenia acting as the sock-puppet for the forces of entropy.

Edited by Weltall
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Yeah, that was my read as well - he didn't want to stick around. I guess once you live for a while you tend to want to just rest - unless you have unfinished business.

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1 minute ago, Weltall said:

Arcanum Unbounded implies that what Odium does forces the soul of the Vessel to pass Beyond. The essay on Sel talks about how Devotion and Dominion had 'their minds ripped away, their souls sent into the Beyond' so they didn't have a choice and Ambition might be in a similar situation.

But Tanavast did leave behind a Cognitive Shadow, so what Odium does doesn't always leave no Cognitive Shadow.

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Aona and Skai would've had to survive for a very long time in Sel's maelstrom of a Cognitive Realm. I could easily accept any of a multitude of reasons why they aren't around:

  • They saw it as futile (human prehistory isn't the time to figure things out and rebuild)
  • They somehow "died" in the storm of Dor energy  /  They gave up trying to survive the storm of Dor energy
  • They stuck around, but can't do anything productive because of the storm of Dor energy
  • They accepted death together (any of the good friends/lovers theories)
  • They might have simply run out of time. As far as I know, even a former vessel can't resist the pull of the beyond forever

Ambition is a different story, but we know so little of the circumstances surrounding their death that it's pointless to debate. Although, if you are alone in space when you die, cognitive thought in that area should get extinguished until you awake as a Shadow. Perhaps that does some sort of purgatory/strangeness in the Cognitive Area... (Unlikely, but combined with the remains of their Shardic energy...)

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3 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

But Tanavast did leave behind a Cognitive Shadow, so what Odium does doesn't always leave no Cognitive Shadow.

True, but at this point Odium was already bound up by Tanavast's plan so he wasn't necessarily as free to do whatever he wanted as he was when confronting the other three Shards. And there's some weirdness where the Stormfather claims to have watched Tanavast die, so exactly how the two are connected is a bit fuzzy.

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Hah. How crazy would it be if what Kelsier did to Ati was exactly what Rayse did to send the other Shadows Beyond. He just finds them and knocks them out cold, and that sends them Beyond.

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I thought Arcanum Unbounded said specifically that Odium's shattering sent them to the Beyond? Mind you, many of them might be like the Lord Ruler and not want to stick around as cognitive shadows. 

That would make the most sense to me. I mean Tanavast would probably not have made his "back up" plan to send on the visions if he thought he wasn't going to die. 

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True, it says that they were both sent to the Beyond. Didn't notice that on my first read. That makes me even more curious who or what the voice was that was talking to Raoden in the shardpool. I assumed it was Aona's Cognitive Shadow, but what else could it have been? Self aware splinter?

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3 hours ago, Weltall said:

Arcanum Unbounded implies that what Odium does forces the soul of the Vessel to pass Beyond. The essay on Sel talks about how Devotion and Dominion had 'their minds ripped away, their souls sent into the Beyond' so they didn't have a choice and Ambition might be in a similar situation. Ati as noted might not have wanted to hang around after millenia acting as the sock-puppet for the forces of entropy.

Thanks for this. I edited the OP to reflect this information. Nice catch!

 

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

They might have simply run out of time. As far as I know, even a former vessel can't resist the pull of the beyond forever

Hmm, I was under the impression that once you achieved a sufficient amount of "soul stretching" you became immune forever - that only through conscious choice could you pass to the Beyond. I wonder if that is just my own head canon.

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48 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Hmm, I was under the impression that once you achieved a sufficient amount of "soul stretching" you became immune forever - that only through conscious choice could you pass to the Beyond. I wonder if that is just my own head canon.

I was under that same impression, but we do see in SH that Kel, at one point, has to specifically resist being pulled into the spiritual realm after taking a sever beating. Pulling someone into the SP could simply be just attacking them to the point where it is the only point that their cognitive shadow can only go there.

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With Tanavast, perhaps he realized he was going to be splintered and chose to die before that, bonding his cognitive shadow with the Stormfather to achieve a level of immortality D&D couldn't?

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20 hours ago, Weltall said:

True, but at this point Odium was already bound up by Tanavast's plan so he wasn't necessarily as free to do whatever he wanted as he was when confronting the other three Shards. And there's some weirdness where the Stormfather claims to have watched Tanavast die, so exactly how the two are connected is a bit fuzzy.

We really have no idea how free he was to do whatever he wanted when confronting Aona and Skai, so I don't think we should make assumptions.

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On 4/28/2017 at 3:19 PM, CaptainRyan said:

But, ignoring that, what was the reason for Ati to vanish to the Beyond so quickly?

Same reason that most people do: He was ready to move on.

He seemed extremely confused, and it seems likely that he did not have a clear recollection of being Ruin.  (Considering his personality and what Ruin did, it's probably best that way.)

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