Did Someone Say Kill Evil?

A little theory on Heleran

70 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Figberts said:

Are you so sure that Helarian can absolutely not ge a radiant? He seems like he embodies some radiant values, no?

He had, and was using, a dead sprenblade. It seems very hard to reconcile any of the previous experiences radiants have had with dead sprenblade with the idea that a radiant would voluntarily wield one instead of something else. 

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8 hours ago, Figberts said:

Are you so sure that Helarian can absolutely not ge a radiant? He seems like he embodies some radiant values, no?

Well the evidences are aganist this.

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18 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

He had, and was using, a dead sprenblade. It seems very hard to reconcile any of the previous experiences radiants have had with dead sprenblade with the idea that a radiant would voluntarily wield one instead of something else. 

I've been on your side, but I did just realize something.  It's possible that Helaran was a Radiant (or Initiate) but hadn't reached the stage where his spren would become a blade.  Most Radiants would find it incredibly difficult to use a dead Shardblade and would in fact abhor the idea, but Helaran always struck me as an insanely strong-willed person.  The sort of person who could bring themselves to wield a dead Shardblade while listening to the screams, and yet fight like we saw in that scene.  It's still unlikely, sure, but if anyone we've seen in the series could do that, I would bet Helaran would be among that group.

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@Jondesu. That is a fair point, and one that I considered. However, there's one other detail you're missing which would argue against dead sprenblade + radiant: the radiant's spren. Some of the sapient spren we have seen are fairly disgusted, or at least disturbed, by the dead sprenblades. I think it fairly likely that if someone bonded to a spren took possession of a dead sprenblade, then the spren would quickly and constantly ask them to get rid of it, like the Stormfather did. Failing that, I wouldn't be surprised if the spren left. We don't know if the spren feels an effect from the dead sprenblade as well, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

Also, a more tenuous point might be that the nahel bond reject the bond of the sprenblade, like how Dalinar instantly unbounded his sprenblade without needed the normal action. 

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Helaran sought out the Skybreakers. We've seen the Skybreakers killing Radiants to keep the Desolation from returning. Helaran died trying to kill Amaram, a member of the Sons of Honor, who are trying to bring about a Desolation and produce new Radiants.

Big-picture, it makes so much sense in the narrative of the story for Helaran to be a Skybreaker. There's a big hang-up in how does he use a dead sprenblade, when every other Radiant we've seen can't touch them. But he sought the Skybreakers, and his actions are consistent with the Skybreakers' larger plans.

Maybe he was a Skybreaker squire?

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19 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Helaran sought out the Skybreakers. We've seen the Skybreakers killing Radiants to keep the Desolation from returning. Helaran died trying to kill Amaram, a member of the Sons of Honor, who are trying to bring about a Desolation and produce new Radiants.

Big-picture, it makes so much sense in the narrative of the story for Helaran to be a Skybreaker. There's a big hang-up in how does he use a dead sprenblade, when every other Radiant we've seen can't touch them. But he sought the Skybreakers, and his actions are consistent with the Skybreakers' larger plans.

Maybe he was a Skybreaker squire?

There is still the fact that someone Who could use Stormlight to heal is hardly killable as Kal did. Much more surrounded by Stormlight.

On another note, Helaran shows his Blade in a couple of scenes...This scenes are quite far in the timeline. If he is a RK he would probably progress to the point where he could use a living Blade in that timeframe.

Lastly in the scene when he treats his father. He didn't display any kind of problem weilding the deadblade.

PS: the two bonds didn't reject One another...Renarin had both

Edited by Yata
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1 hour ago, Yata said:

PS: the two bonds didn't reject One another...Renarin had both

Good point. Forgot about that. 

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Renarin, however, was heavily affected by his Blade's screams, during the pit fight being a prime example.  I recall no such debilitation evident with Helaran's death.  

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3 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Renarin, however, was heavily affected by his Blade's screams, during the pit fight being a prime example.  I recall no such debilitation evident with Helaran's death.  

Renarin is not a strong-willed person, though, and already suffers from epileptic fits.  He would have had little chance of withstanding the screaming and continuing to be effective.  Helaran is much more strong-willed, standing up to his father without any visible fear, and would be far more likely to be able to do that if it's possible.  I'll note that Relis, when he heard the screams, was emotionally and mentally sent into shock, but he wasn't expecting it, nor did he have any actual physical impairment because of it.

The argument that Helaran shouldn't have died so easily if he could breath in Stormlight is compelling, though.  I think that most likely rules out Helaran being a Radiant if he was indeed the Shardbearer that Kaladin killed.

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One thing I'm not seeing in this thread was discussed in another thread that I can't find at the moment. That is that it is possible, but perhaps unlikely (because so many important characters seem to accept Helaran's demise), that Helaran was not the one who was killed, but another Veden who was using a blade Helaran had no use for anymore should he have bonded a spren. I see Helaran as an honorable person and I find it unlikely that he would so casually slaughter so many who were not fighting him and were unlikely to be able to damage him in any case. The shardbearer's face was so damaged that he might not have been definitively identifiable. The blade was definitely a dead spren as can be seen by the gemstone that is attached to it. Such gemstones are not attached to honor blades. Maybe someone shot down this theory effectively and I just missed it. I've haven't been following the forum as much as I would like because I'm working my way through the WoB's. So much information! A lot of it very informative.

I may not get my wish but I will say that I really want this theory to be true. I want Helaran to be the man of honor that I imagine him to be. It would be great if he had become a member of the Skybreakers. Somehow I don't see the Skybreakers as being involved in a plot to kill Amaram.

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@geoffw35 the thread I'm sure you're thinking of is "Heleran conspiracy theory" and I'm pretty sure it wasn't disproved, just devolved into arguments about how Brandon shouldn't bring back any more "dead" characters.

I don't particularly share your view of Heleran, but I also don't think he was a monster. I don't know who he was. We only see Heleran through the filter of a younger Shallan through here flashbacks. Seeing him as the protector who stood up to Lin forces us to see him positively, but we have no idea what type of person he was outside of his family or what activities he was involved in. 

While the simplest explanation of a Red Haired shardbearer with the same blade as Heleran, is that it was he who was killed by Kaladin, it definitely doesn't rule out another Veden, as Red hair isn't exactly uncommon for them. 

Edited by Calderis
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43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@geoffw35 the thread I'm sure you're thinking of is "Heleran conspiracy theory" and I'm pretty sure it wasn't disproved, just devolved into arguments about how Brandon shouldn't bring back any more "dead" characters.

I don't particularly share your view of Heleran, but I also don't think he was a monster. I don't know who he was. We only see Heleran through the filter of a younger Shallan through here flashbacks. Seeing him as the protector who stood up to Lin forces us to see him positively, but we have no idea what type of person he was outside of his family or what activities he was involved in. 

While the simplest explanation of a Red Haired shardbearer with the same blade as Heleran, is that it was he who was killed by Kaladin, it definitely doesn't rule out another Veden, as Red hair isn't exactly uncommon for them. 

If Helaran had died and Brandon brought him back, I would agree with those who disapprove. I'm pretty sure he is either dead and gone, or wasn't the shardbearer who was killed. I don't at all feel that finding him to be alive would be cheat. Jasnah's return could fall into that category, but I would not agree with that either. Her mother certainly seemed to believe that it was nearly impossible to kill. And, more importantly, this shows one of the most powerful abilities of the transportation surge. So I like it.

I agree that we don't have a lot to go on regarding his character outside of his family, but his love for his brothers and sister are at least some indication that he was a good man. So the feeling I get from what we are shown of him is not, I think, purely manufactured out of my wish. If I get my wish, I would love to read about the highly likely encounter with Shallan where she explains what happened to their mother.

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@geoffw35

Something interesting to keep in mind is that Lin had received news that Helaran had died on an Alethi battlefield. 

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44 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

@geoffw35

Something interesting to keep in mind is that Lin had received news that Helaran had died on an Alethi battlefield. 

I know. Lin is probably the most important of those I mentioned when I said: "because so many important characters seem to accept Helaran's demise". Lots of possibilities, though. Helaran could have learned that his father wanted him killed and so, after the shardbearer's death, decided to have someone tell Lin that it was he who died ending that particular threat.

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49 minutes ago, geoffw35 said:

I know. Lin is probably the most important of those I mentioned when I said: "because so many important characters seem to accept Helaran's demise". Lots of possibilities, though. Helaran could have learned that his father wanted him killed and so, after the shardbearer's death, decided to have someone tell Lin that it was he who died ending that particular threat.

Possibly. I'm just not seeing any motivation for Helaran to want Lin to think he was dead. He clearly expressed that he wasn't afraid of anything Lin would try to do, clear disdain for him. Furthermore, he intentionally set himself to make Lin lessen his abuse of Balat, Wikim, and Shallan. With Lin thinking Helaran is dead though, he would be free to abuse without fear of retribution once more. 

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Well my personal theory is that Helaran actually wanted to kill the Skybreakers, since his mother was their adherent and basically destroyed their family. When Mraize says he was seeking them out, he doesn't say it was to join them. Maybe he was seeking them out the same way Nale was seeking out surgebinders.

On the other hand, if he was looking to join them, there is one thing I don't see mentioned very often. Skybreaking doesn't occur in a vacuum. I think it is highly unlikely that the group 'The Skybreakers' is solely comprised of Nale and (proto-)Radiants. They have to have some support structure and/or source of funds. While they can get support from various levels of government, I wouldn't want to rely on that if I were them, especially since this is clearly a group that has been around a while. Besides that, his mother was apparently part of their group and wasn't a Radiant as far as we know. All that means that he may have been a member of the organization, just not a Radiant. If he wasn't trying to kill them, this is my bet.

Also, that moment when you realize Shallan killed both of her parents, is now at least somewhat attracted to the man who probably killed her brother, and has abandoned her brothers to their fate. Real nice girl. (I do agree with those particular choices, but it's amusing anyway.)

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7 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Well my personal theory is that Helaran actually wanted to kill the Skybreakers, since his mother was their adherent and basically destroyed their family. When Mraize says he was seeking them out, he doesn't say it was to join them. Maybe he was seeking them out the same way Nale was seeking out surgebinders.

Indeed this is an interesting point.

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12 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

his mother was apparently part of their group

Was she? WoB? 

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6 minutes ago, strumienpola said:

Was she? WoB? 

No WoB that I'm aware of, it's just completely obvious. She and her friend tried to kill her only daughter because of her abilities. The other secret societies wouldn't try to kill her out of hand like that. The Ghostbloods would try to use her, as we see them try in WoR. The Sons of Honor would be overjoyed that there is a Radiant running around, presumably meaning a desolation is coming and the Heralds are returning. The Diagramists would at the very least observe her for a while first, and try to find out more about her power, then decide to try to manipulate her like the Ghostbloods would, or kill her to maintain their plans. Regardless, it wouldn't have happened the way it did if she were with the Diagram. That only leaves the Skybreakers unaccounted for, and it fits their MO perfectly. They kill Radiants simply because they are Radiants as well as what that could potentially mean. His mother was talking to the other man about how she is has the powers, and so they decide to kill her. I see no reason to doubt that she was a Skybreaker minion.

Based on how stickler they are about keeping to a code, killing Shallan could have dramatically improved her standing in the ranks, since she decided to stick to the code of killing Radiants even when her own daughter is one. So beyond whatever zealotry she may have had for the order, there is also the potential for selfish motives as well.

All that means that Helaran could have very realistic motives for killing the Skybreakers, or at least bringing them to justice for their murders (wouldn't that be ironic :P ). All in all, I think it is a distinct possibility that he would want to kill them, rather than join them. He also probably had some contacts with the Ghostbloods because of his father, even if his father didn't like it. I wouldn't be surprised if he had sought out the Ghostbloods for resources in his quest for vengeance. I still admit that it is only a possibility, and not even necessarily the most likely one. It is just something that needs to be at least mentioned when this topic is brought up.

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Oh, man. I won't say that's obvious, but I will agree with your conclusions. That makes a lot of sense, actually, that Helaran wasn't seeking the Skybreakers to join them, but seeking them to destroy them because of what their teachings did to his family. It doesn't work quite as cleanly with why he was after Amaram, who was expressly trying to bring back the Radiants. But there are plenty of other reasons he could have been at odds with the Sons of Honor.

My big hangup with this whole situation was, why would Brandon include that Helaran sought out the Skybreakers, if he wound up being part of a different secret society? This explanation answers that concern.

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I just think she might just have been super religious. Vorinism condemns Radiants. She actually tried to explain (well, frantically) Lin why she's doing that. And skybreakers minions seem to travel with Nalan. I agree she might have been a member of a secret society, but there's plenty of them on Roshar and I don't think that it was Skybreakers per se. Might be some group that believes in similar things. Like Sons of Honor and Envisagers. 

Also Helaran believed Lin killed their mother and hated him for it. I don't think he had any idea about the cremmery that actually happened, he didn't blame her. 

_________

One thing I recalled randomly.

On 12.04.2017 at 6:25 PM, Jondesu said:

Renarin is not a strong-willed person

Renarin was carrying around a sword screaming in his head with agony for five days straight. Both Kaladin and Dalinar, tough guys, drop dead shardblades after few seconds. Lol, Renarin is extremely strong-willed. And even he is not able to fight with this thing. 

Edited by strumienpola
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On 4/9/2017 at 7:54 AM, Landis963 said:

Division cuts things at range.

Division is what is mentioned when they say "can burn through stone" Dustbringers are proven to be able to burn and Division is the surge of DESTRUCTION

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Oh another thing, my thoughts are that maybe Heleran killed his Spren hence sphere fulled shardblade

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In the future, please just edit your previous post instead of double posting :)

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