Why Ferchemical Steel works the way it does (SoS spoilers)

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

In Shadows of Self we see that f-steel gives the user some amount of mental speed, despite the fact that it stores physical speed. I haven't see an exact answer to why this is, besides how feruchemy doesn't harm the user, so this is my best guess.

My theory is that it physically accelerates the chemical process in your brain, resulting in the increase in mental speed. The way I see it, if a feruchemist taps speed allowing them to move quickly, their body has to adapt to do internal processes quickly as well (heartbeat, blood flow, breathing, etc.). Following that logic, the synapses in a feruchemist's brain would be affected as well.

Anyone have any alternate theories?

[Jedal]

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

In Shadows of Self we see that f-steel gives the user some amount of mental speed, despite the fact that it stores physical speed. I haven't see an exact answer to why this is, besides how feruchemy doesn't harm the user, so this is my best guess.

My theory is that it physically accelerates the chemical process in your brain, resulting in the increase in mental speed. The way I see it, if a feruchemist taps speed allowing them to move quickly, their body has to adapt to do internal processes quickly as well (heartbeat, blood flow, breathing, etc.). Following that logic, the synapses in a feruchemist's brain would be affected as well.

Anyone have any alternate theories?

I think the theory is great, but wouldn't that also make it so that people age faster? If everything is moving more quickly, wouldn't cell death and reproduction and all sorts of processes related to life and death also speed up? That would mean that F-Steel users would have dramatically reduced lifespans.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

That was something I was also wondering about. We know that feruchemy can have affects on a person's body as a result of use (ex: the mention of bone growths for gold ferrings), but there has been no mention whether Steel herrings suffer from any physical side effects. 

It may be similar to how Bendalloy mistings may have slightly shorter lifespans.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Faceless Mist-Wraith
Had another thought

[+Extesian]

We do know the magic will compensate other abilities to enable it's safe use but it is a good question how it does that. However my guess is its not a general biological consequence, it's specifically built into the magic. The same happens with tapping weight, where it increases your strength to compensate. I think simply it was designed that way and it increases mental speed magically, same with strength for weight. It's interesting because they are end-neutral but I wonder if the conversion basically uses some of the speed you put in and converts it? Because I don't think you're mentally slower when storing speed or physically weaker when storing weight.

[Oversleep]

35 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I think the theory is great, but wouldn't that also make it so that people age faster? If everything is moving more quickly, wouldn't cell death and reproduction and all sorts of processes related to life and death also speed up? That would mean that F-Steel users would have dramatically reduced lifespans.

No.

Actually, given the diminishing returns when overtapping (tapping so much that some of the power is lost), Steelrunners would have prolonged lifespans. Why?

Well, when they're storing they slow themsleves down and when tapping the speed themselves up. It should balance out but given the overtapping you'd be fast for a shorter time than the time you was slow. Does that make sense?

[+Extesian]

6 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

No.

Actually, given the diminishing returns when overtapping (tapping so much that some of the power is lost), Steelrunners would have prolonged lifespans. Why?

Well, when they're storing they slow themsleves down and when tapping the speed themselves up. It should balance out but given the overtapping you'd be fast for a shorter time than the time you was slow. Does that make sense?

That does make sense, I'd never thought of it like that. But i think i disagree? The two would still balance would they not? It's not compounding where you increase the efficiency, it's end-neutral and having a decrease for some time is matched by the increase later even if it's 25%loss for an hour now and 100% increase later for 15 minutes. Yeah it's less time but the speed increase compensates. Ie there's the same number of cell divisions/DNA replication either way, it's just drawn out then condensed.

[Spoolofwhool]

34 minutes ago, Extesian said:

That does make sense, I'd never thought of it like that. But i think i disagree? The two would still balance would they not? It's not compounding where you increase the efficiency, it's end-neutral and having a decrease for some time is matched by the increase later even if it's 25%loss for an hour now and 100% increase later for 15 minutes. Yeah it's less time but the speed increase compensates. Ie there's the same number of cell divisions/DNA replication either way, it's just drawn out then condensed.

When you amplify a tap, compress a 50% charge for an hour into a 100% tap, you lose a bit as a cost to compound it, so the compounded tap would last for less than thirty minutes.

47 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

No.

Actually, given the diminishing returns when overtapping (tapping so much that some of the power is lost), Steelrunners would have prolonged lifespans. Why?

Well, when they're storing they slow themsleves down and when tapping the speed themselves up. It should balance out but given the overtapping you'd be fast for a shorter time than the time you was slow. Does that make sense?

Steel/Steel compounders would kill themselves more quickly though. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Weltall]

Brandon has indicated that Feruchemy isn't 100% efficient under specific circumstances, though the wording in the WoB's I've found are a bit obtuse. Here he confirms that there are diminishing returns when you tap at a higher rate than you stored and here he says that Feruchemy granted by Hemalurgy is naturally 'leaky' so you get slightly less back than you put in, effort-wise.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Weltall

[+Extesian]

Thanks @Spoolofwhool, @Weltall, somehow I missed that vital bit of realmatics, I didn't realize feruchemy lost efficiency with higher tapping. Makes it feel a bit less end-neutral but I suppose it makes sense.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I hadn't thought about how storing might affect this process. How much would a Steel/steel compounder have to use before they showed visible signs of aging?

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Anyone have any alternate theories?

My alternate theory is that since steelrunning was used by an antagonist, it can afford to be overpowered beyond reason. your theory in fact fails to explain some more side effects we see in SoS:

- steelrunning allows running at superspeed, so fast as to be invisible. While that may seem reasonable, you have to take into account that every running step is a jump forward, and the law of gravity dictates how fast you fall. You would not be able to run with increased speed. Though you could jump like a cangaroo or an astronaut on the moon - the similarity shows that kind of jumping is the most effective way to move when you have muscles that are overproportionated for your local gravity. And the speed and maneuverability one can have with that jumping is limited.

-  steelrunning allowes stunts at superspeed on a polished marble floor. everyone who tried to run on a floor knows how you skid if you try to change direction too fast. try to do it while moving even faster, it would be like trying to run on ice. apparently steelrunning allows increased friction with the floor.

- slamming your feet against the ground at super speed will break your bones - just to mention a damage even a kandra cannot ignore. that is another limitation to how fast you can move that steelrunners seem to ignore.

basically, steelrunning seem to ignore all sensible limitations that are sort of built-in in other feruchemical powers. the only limitation is that it runs out really fast, and that is used to justify the heroes never, ever having access to it when it matters. sazed runs out of it running back to elendel, sazed runs out of it before he can mop the floor with marsh, sazed does not have it for all the combat situations in the third book and he only manages to store enough to free himself, but no more, the title does not say BoM spoilers so I will avoid telling how the heroes will be deprived of steelrunning in that book.

I think sanderson made one of his few mistakes in making Feruchemical steel so powerful. If you keep having to write ways for your characters to run out of a certain power, there's a problem.

[Unhinged]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I think sanderson made one of his few mistakes in making Feruchemical steel so powerful. If you keep having to write ways for your characters to run out of a certain power, there's a problem.

I think you're over estimating steelrunning just a little bit. It seems to me like it comes with perfectly logical downsides, you actually listed some of them breaking bones friction things like that. the only times we've seen someone abuse feruchemical steel they had one or more secondary abilities that they could exploit to get around the problems bleeder was a kandra so it makes sense that her body could be made of tougher stuff than an ordinary human she could also give herself spiked feet to help her get around the friction problem. also she could make her bones out of something heavy like lead which would prevent her from sending herself flying when she went to fast. She would need stronger muscles to use this body but for a kandra all that would require is some flesh they could eat. Sazed was a full Feruchemist so he could tap some weight to ensure he didn't go flying when he rounded a corner, maybe a little strength as well and possibly some healing since going that fast might do some damage. Marasi had access to all of the powers Sazed did (and then some) so it's possible she did the same thing.

That said Sanderson should have made at least a passing reference to using other powers to help balance out tapping a lot of steel.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Unhinged

[+Extesian]

15 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

I think you're over estimating steelrunning just a little bit. It seems to me like it comes with perfectly logical downsides, you actually listed some of them breaking bones friction things like that. the only times we've seen someone abuse feruchemical steel they had one or more secondary abilities that they could exploit to get around the problems bleeder was a kandra so it makes sense that her body could be made of tougher stuff than an ordinary human she could also give herself spiked feet to help her get around the friction problem. also she could make her bones out of something heavy like lead which would prevent her from sending herself flying when she went to fast. She would need stronger muscles to use this body but for a kandra all that would require is some flesh they could eat. Sazed was a full Feruchemist so he could tap some weight to ensure he didn't go flying when he rounded a corner, maybe a little strength as well and possibly some healing since going that fast might do some damage. Marsi had access to all of the powers Sazed did (and then some) so it's possible she did the same thing.

That said Sanderson should have made at least a passing reference to using other powers to help balance out tapping a lot of steel.

It'll be addressed when we see a compounding steelrunner which is high on my list of things. With unlimited speedbursts there will need to be extensive measures to counteract the usual laws of physics I imagine.

[DocHoliday]

OP has me wondering if it's not a manipulation if the Metabolic processes. Increase in mental capacity, from a  physical  change/increase (no matter how small) implies a dump of  something in the brain.

[Yata]

On 28/3/2017 at 1:00 AM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I hadn't thought about how storing might affect this process. How much would a Steel/steel compounder have to use before they showed visible signs of aging?

I don't think a steelrunner would experience an alternate aging.

For how the Cosmere's aging work. It depends by Soul and not biology.

The steelrunner didn't alter time so the Soul's timeframe isn't changed therefore his Spiritual age (and the physical One) remains the same.

[8bitBob]

On 3/27/2017 at 6:38 PM, king of nowhere said:

I think sanderson made one of his few mistakes in making Feruchemical steel so powerful. If you keep having to write ways for your characters to run out of a certain power, there's a problem.

I basically agree with the idea that Feruchemical Steel ignores all kinds of physics problems like the ones you described, but I don't feel that it is too strong by itself.

Running out of speed quickly and speed being hard to collect means you can't just use it endlessly. By itself, this means that Steelrunners, like most Ferrings, can be supremely dangerous for short bursts, but can't just endlessly take on the world.

The other issue is the matter of tapping large amounts of an attribute at once, which is uniquely powerful for speed. With an attribute like weight or heat, if you tap it all at once then you have a very short window of opportunity to use the burst of power. Speed is unique in that tapping more also increases your window of use, because even though you have less time, you just move faster. I suspect this is why Brandon kept the heat due to friction limitation, as it means you can't just super tap speed and kill an entire army in the blink of an eye.

With these limitations, F-Steel is certainly powerful, but not unbeatable. The real issue is when you get into things like compounding and ability mixing. Having infinite speed, or being able to heal faster than you burn from friction, would make you pretty unstoppable. This is likely why no one aside from the Lord Ruler has been able to do this yet. Now that medallions are a thing, we're likely to start seeing individuals do things like this, but I'm reminded of a WoB from another topic. Words of Radiance spoilers:

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Sep 4th, 2014

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Verbatim)

QUESTION

I assume I'm going to learn a lot more about this in Stormlight 3 but Nightblood, is he more dangerous or less dangerous now that he-- obviously he needs Investiture that is why [audio obscured] any investiture?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I'd say more dangerous, a little bit easier to get the Stormlight.

QUESTION

I assumed I'd learn a lot more about him...

BRANDON SANDERSON

You will, and he's pretty dangerous, but he is also less dangerous because other people have Shardblades, if that makes sense

Highlighted the most relevant portion. Similar to Nightblood, these medallion wielding Steel compounders would be stronger than most things we've seen, but they're going to have to contend with things like Gold compounders, or Thugs in suits of allomatically inert three inch thick, nearly impenetrable armor, or unnaturally powerful Crashers using Duralumin to Steelpush on their surroundings so hard that they can rip out the metal reserves in your stomach.

Basically, I'm saying things are about to get crazy power-wise, and compounding Steel is just one of the many flavours on the menu.

[The One Who Connects]

On 3/27/2017 at 8:38 PM, king of nowhere said:

I think Sanderson made one of his few mistakes in making Feruchemical steel so powerful. If you keep having to write ways for your characters to run out of a certain power, there's a problem.

To add numerics to 8bitBob's closing statement, consider the Metallic Arts. 16 A-Powers, 16 F-Powers. There are 256 potential Twinborn outcomes, and maybe what... 2-3 of them actually seem overpowered? We don't know the extent of what can be done with the other powers, so they might not be as op as they sound.
If you add Medallion with a single power of the remaining 30 (b/c twinborn have 2 powers already), the potential combinations rise to 7,680. There's almost no possible way to counter all of those possibilities, and I guarantee some people will have 2+ Medallions to switch between extra powers.

Unless you have some fancy insta-kill, then winning against another Twinborn w/ Medallions is entirely dependent on outlasting the opponents metal reserves and stamina. The best chance of hard-countering everything is Double Gold, and that's because it gets around the fancy tricks other setups might have.

[Yitzi2]

On 3/27/2017 at 5:23 PM, Jedal said:

I think the theory is great, but wouldn't that also make it so that people age faster? If everything is moving more quickly, wouldn't cell death and reproduction and all sorts of processes related to life and death also speed up? That would mean that F-Steel users would have dramatically reduced lifespans.

Only the compounders; the others would slow down when storing.

[The Technovore]

I think in the end this is something that Sanderson's going to have to define more clearly in-story, likely via Khriss. 

Does Steelrunning actually make you go faster? Or does it change the way you travel through time?If a steelrunner jumped off a building while storing, would they fall more slowly, or would gravity affect them all the same? If gravity does affect them all the same, how are they able to justify slamming their legs into the ground 2000 times a minute without experiencing problems in the joints?

Itty-Bitty BoM spoilers:

Spoiler

 

I think that, like the way the Khriss managed to define F-Iron as "changing the way Scadrial's gravity pulls on you" F-Steel affects something more fundamental then just how fast you go. Something to do with how time passes for you.

 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, The Technovore said:

Itty-Bitty BoM spoilers:

  Hide contents

 

I think that, like the way the Khriss managed to define F-Iron as "changing the way Scadrial's gravity pulls on you" F-Steel affects something more fundamental then just how fast you go. Something to do with how time passes for you.

 

 

That's not how iron works though. It is changing your effective mass without compromising your density somehow. Gravity is still working the way it should.