Oathbringer Cover Revealed

[ccstat]

Against my better judgement, I will add to the beauty-of-female-characters discussion.

The most important thing to remember is that physical beauty is highly subjective and derives from both cultural and individual expectations. That whole "eye of the beholder" thing. @king of nowhere is right to pay attention to who is describing whom. Also, presentation (e.g. Vin vs Valette) is a big part of how those beholders form their impressions.

I will add that my personal impression of some of the mentioned characters differs markedly from the previous post. (In particular, Vin, Shallan, and Ranette). So the reader brings their own set of biases to layer on the narrative.

In my experience of real-world relationships, I've found that beauty tends generally to increase with the amount of time you spend with someone. So it should come as no surprise to us when after investing time and emotion into a book and character they feel beautiful to us. (Especially when that character is the vehicle for some of our own wish-fulfillment of using incredible magic, overcoming impossible odds, and visiting amazing locations.) 

Aside: in listing cosmere characters for this purpose, don't forget about Silence Montaine and her girls (from Threnody), or Vathi (from Sixth of the Dusk). Those are from shorter, less epic works, so different rules may apply to generating heroines, but none of them are described as stunning.

To @maxal's good points about what naysayers see against the cover: yes, this is a very classic fantasy cover that doesn't really move forward. But that's primarily because Michael Whelan pretty much defined the classic cover. I agree that seeing only the front cover rather than the whole image puts Jasnah very much in the foreground, when a strength of at least the WoK cover was the emphasis on the storm. It doesn't help that Brandon's name covers up so much of the artwork that isn't Jasnah. That makes sense for marketing, and we all want this to make money, but from a judge-the-cover perspective I think it would help widen the focus if the title and author didn't need to be thunderclast size.

Edited March 18, 2017 by ccstat

[Erai Sedai]

To me, this is an absolutely beautiful cover!

[Who Sharded?]

If I were an artist I would never put a woman on my covers then people would debate whether or not the portrayal is sexist.

But then I'd be sexist for not putting women on my covers...

[maxal]

9 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

ok, but it makes sense for jasnah to be dressed like that. when doing physical activity, you want stuff that won't tangle or catch into something. You may notice how gymnasts and dancers (of both sexes) also routinely use outfits that leave little to the imagination, simply because they are the more practical to do that kind of activity. So it makes sense for jasnah to have a form-fitting dress, what actually makes little sense is the cape and the things dangling from her waist - bad for fighting. Ok, the best choice would be an armor, but since jasnah isn't armor-trained, and she can heal very well, an armor would probably hinder more than protect. Plus, jasnah is described as beautiful in several occasions (how did she got that physique by being a scholar, by the way? she must have done some really heavy book-lifting), and she cares for her appearance, not for flirting but for power. I can totally see her getting her hair and makeup done before a battle before she thinks the soldiers will follow her better if she does. Anyway, when you have a beautiful woman, pretty much any outfit you put her in could qualify as fanservice. The only way to completely avoid it would be to use a burqua, and really, better not go down that lane. Especially, the problem is not pretty women being shown in revealing clothes when it makes sense for them to dress such; the problem is pretty women being shown with revealing clothes completely inadequate to what they are doing for the sole purpose of fanservice.

In order to push the conversation s bit further down the road, I showed the cover to my husband whom has never read SA and would refer to it as: "Not your book again, please stop talking about your book, read something else.".  He looked at it quizzically expecting me to try to snatch him down for something. As I eagerly waited for a response, he bluntly said: "Well.. She is fully dressed, what are you complaining about?". I replied I wasn't complaining, I just wanted to know what he thought of it. 

He said he didn't think anything. It was a book cover and it looked like a book cover.  I asked him if it made him want to read this book to which he answered: "No book cover ever make me want to read a book.". 

So my experiment failed  I will need another test subject. 

This being said, I will certainly not complain over Jasnah's outfit nor was I complaining about it. What the individual @DSC01 fished out of the Tor.com comments section is arguing is the pose the artist chose to draw Jasnah in does put her figure into evidence. Thus, it isn't so much about what she wears, but how she is depicted. The pose could have been different, we didn't need to see her doing a full facial, but this is how the artist chose to represent her. I for one do think it is worth wondering if this was the right choice, not because the picture isn't gorgeous, but because Jasnah is all we see, for better or for worst.

As for her figure, well, this is an issue in most works of fiction: women aren't seen doing any physical exercise and yet they retain perfect figures. For Jasnah, to have kept a perfectly slim figure with absolutely no signs of curves at the wrong places while being in her mid-thirties, considering she isn't doing any physical activities whatsoever, worst she eats sweet food all day long is a tad unrealistic. The same could be said about Shallan who spent her teenager years looked into a tower, sitting and drawing. WoT at least had the sense to make a point of stating how unfit Egwene was before her time with the running Aiels. 

Obviously, people will jump in stating how there are people who are naturally slim without doing much, which is true, but very rare, but more importantly, those people do not look athletic. They are slim, but soft, especially when they reach their thirties, but Jasnah her looks like she has been training hard for years. That is slightly bothersome. Maybe there is a backstory we do not know here, maybe she fit up during her time in Shadesmar, but quite frankly "sword yielding fighting Jasnah" does not make much sense at this point within the story. So we'll see how the story goes, maybe there is a rational we haven't gotten yet. 

For the rest, there are other ways to show women on book covers without having them wearing a burqua. The best example: Shallan's drawing in the inner page of WoR. It was beautiful and nobody would ever refer to it as "fanservice", because nobody would think the picture was drawn to showcast how gorgeous Shallan is. Of course, she is pretty, but her being pretty isn't the main purpose of the drawing while I do feel Jasnah being "the most beautiful woman on Roshar" is the purpose of this particular cover. 

9 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Alas, that's a real problem, though one of media as a whole. In movies, women who are supposed to be ugly just... aren't. I think sanderson is less guilty here than others are. navani is described as beautiful only by dalinar, who had a preexisting attraction for her. jasnah is described as beautiful, but she also spends a lot of effort for her looks. I always got the impression that without that, she'd be above average, but nothing special (I don't know where I get this idea; it may be totally unsupported and just triggered by my standard reaction to any woman with a lot of makeup). Laral is described as beautiful by kaladin, a teenager who is getting into puberty and who is only allowed to hang out with one girl. Shallan is very pretty and Danlan is at least pretty, but they are both in their late teens; most girls are pretty at that age.

I look at events through the eyes of a scientist and I tend to latch on statistical oddities (did anyone notice how the number "7" turns up in a lot of Marasi's statistics? That's because people asked a random number between 1 and 10 will generally say 3 or 7. From that you can see those statistics are made up), and female beauty distribution is one of the things I keep track of, and none of sanderson's books triggered my "improbable-o-meter". When his whole production is taken into account, you get vin, siri, vivenna and marasi as the only other main characters who are really beautiful - with many others of ordinary or mid-high looks, like tia (no remarks), steris (plain at best), sarene (some older people complimented her, but I never got the impression that she was exceptional), tyndwil (sazed loved her, but I don't recall any other character remarking on her beauty), ranette (we can see she's ugly even through the pink-tinted descriptions of vayne).

Even among those who are actually described as beautiful, I always got the impression - again, personal impression - that vivenna, like jasnah, was more groomed than really beautiful (incidentally, women judging other women tend to overstate much those kind of things, along with lack of flaws, "poise" and "elegance". Don't care much about those stuff. That's why many girls fixate on dieting, only to go to their male friends to say "look, I lost 3 kilos" and get replies like "I don't see any difference" or "I liked you better before". Last time I explained all this to a girl, she answered "I am fully aware, but I'm not doing it to be liked better by men; I am doing it to be more envied by other girls". Well, can't argue with that All this long digression because both jasnah and vivenna were described as beautiful specifically by women who remarked a lot on their poise and impeccable clothing and makeup). And that Vin was more "kitty-cute" than beautiful. And siri was given a full beauty treatmment every day before her meetings with the god-king. The statistic distribution is realistic enough; the main anomaly is that the protagonists tend to be most beautiful and the supporting characters are more plain. Shallan is probably the only one who is really, objectively 1-in-100-beautiful (and also very kitty-cute). And being the only one among several dozens characters, she is statistically appropriate.

And the more I think about it, the more I think the drawings are realistic. Marasi, as seen in the cover of SoS, is pretty, but you can walk around and find many girls as pretty. Steris has been groomed to her best, but you can guess her plainess underneath. and jasnah, she looks like a pretty woman in her late thirties who used makeup to get some extra points.

I was solely referring to SA in my previous comment, not other books were I do agree female characters aren't necessarily described as being drop-dead gorgeous. SA though is one book and nearly everyone in there is... drop-dead gorgeous. Also, it isn't just Dalinar, Navani is considered to be an amazingly pretty woman, aging, but pretty nonetheless. Jasnah is said to be Alethi ideal in terms of beauty, perfection. Shallan is described as being pretty, gorgeous and beautiful on several occasions even if she doesn't embodied the Alethi ideal. I thus disagree Jasnah merely is "above average": the book does present her as being well above the average. Of course, most of it comes from Shallan, but then again, there aren't a lot of female characters whom aren't referred to, by another character, as pretty while the same isn't true for men.

Thus while the beauty is within the eye of the beholder, I would say there are a lot of beholders who finds every single SA female character... pretty.

This being said, you saying how most girls are prettier in their teens did make me laugh... because most women are at their ugliest within their teens... I could show you pictures of myself at 17, 27 and 37 and allow you to judge which version is the prettiest and I can assure you, 17 years old gets dead dead last. 

For the rest, well, women psychology 101 would explain how most women often are in competition with other women, trying to woe the men, even when they are happily married. What their man thinks isn't as important as what their female relatives/friends/co-workers think and nothing is more cruel than a woman... to another woman. Dieting is one of those horrible habits a majority of women of all ages do have while men are more easily allowed to age with their imperfections. It is also why pass a given age, most female actresses run out of work: they have lost their youth. It is hard to be a woman, these days, so much pressure, so much competition and once you have kids, it is also about "who is the best mother" and the "Oh look, they did that we their kids, I didn't do that, am I a bad mother?".

As for the weight question.... I am a woman: there are no right answer. Sorry guys  The: "Honey, do I look fat in this?" or the "Honey, do you think I gained weight" questions are complete traps for you: nothing you will say and/or say will go down right. Nothing. 

3 hours ago, ccstat said:

To @maxal's good points about what naysayers see against the cover: yes, this is a very classic fantasy cover that doesn't really move forward. But that's primarily because Michael Whelan pretty much defined the classic cover. I agree that seeing only the front cover rather than the whole image puts Jasnah very much in the foreground, when a strength of at least the WoK cover was the emphasis on the storm. It doesn't help that Brandon's name covers up so much of the artwork that isn't Jasnah. That makes sense for marketing, and we all want this to make money, but from a judge-the-cover perspective I think it would help widen the focus if the title and author didn't need to be thunderclast size.

I am the one who raised the questioning because I thought it was fun to discuss. I would like to point out I am by no way offended: it takes a great deal lot to offend me and/or to traumatize me.

And yes, it is a classic cover and having read many commentaries, it got me wondering if a cover putting more emphasis on the world behind than on Jasnah wouldn't have been preferable. The amazing part of the cover, for me, was the thunderclast, but it is lost onto the final product. Marketing-wise, I do not know if it is... wise. Instead of putting SA into an imaginative epic fantasy series of the 21st century, it puts him back down towards the old school stuff from the 80s. 

In this sense, I do think WoK cover was the most amazing one, the most intriguing one while this one is the most... traditional one, with all the required cliches being applied. 

1 hour ago, Who Sharded? said:

If I were an artist I would never put a woman on my covers then people would debate whether or not the portrayal is sexist.

But then I'd be sexist for not putting women on my covers...

It isn't sexist if the picture you chose is one similar to Shallan's inner drawing of WoR. It is slightly sexist when one of the cover's intentions is to show how pretty and perfect Jasnah is which probably wasn't Brandon's team intentions, but there are people who do see it this way.

[Andy92]

I saw someone on Reddit say that thankfully the giant S is covering up her left hand to give the picture some modesty. 

[Rasarr]

Regarding Jasnah flying (or hovering) in this scene, I've been to a signing today and asked Brandon about it. He said that she doesn't actually fly, and it's just Michael's artistic license.

So there's the answer to this question.

[Farnsworth]

I thought the right hand was the safehand!

[Andy92]

5 minutes ago, Figberts said:

I thought the right hand was the safehand!

It's left. I just looked it up to make sure.

[king of nowhere]

eh, I totally agree with the pose thing. the full image (with the thunderclast and the everstorm) is a very beautiful image, while the small part of it they put on cover is... a beautiful woman (though fully dressed) holding a sword and doing magic stuff. without context, it seems the cover is trying too hard. unfortunately, it is just marketing. this kind of thing sells, and so they'll keep making it. Sexism has little to do with it, at least not directly. it appears there are plenty of men who can be turned into gullible fools by showing them some boobs, and plenty of women who are more than willing to take unfair advantage of that, and marketing does the pragmatic thing. Just because it is not politically correct to say it, it doesn't mean it is not true.

@ beauty of main characters in SA: I don't remember the parts about jasnah and navani being praised for beauty by the general public, but if you say there are, then I trust you. Then... yeah, there is a statistical anomaly there. Probably my mind was toning down those descriptions exactly to mitigate that statistical anomaly. Well, I already admitted all his main female characters are at least sensibly above average (with the exception of short stories; I did not include Silence or shai because I don't remember any real description of them). At least the supporting cast seems to be evenly distributed. Oh, by the way, if they ever make movies out of his books, you can bet all the girls would be drop-dead-gorgeous anyway. maybe shai would have a soulstamp that would turn her into a supermodel, and she would use that to seduce the guards into letting her go. but only after facing the undead things and taking obligtory clothing damage

[maxal]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

eh, I totally agree with the pose thing. the full image (with the thunderclast and the everstorm) is a very beautiful image, while the small part of it they put on cover is... a beautiful woman (though fully dressed) holding a sword and doing magic stuff. without context, it seems the cover is trying too hard. unfortunately, it is just marketing. this kind of thing sells, and so they'll keep making it. Sexism has little to do with it, at least not directly. it appears there are plenty of men who can be turned into gullible fools by showing them some boobs, and plenty of women who are more than willing to take unfair advantage of that, and marketing does the pragmatic thing. Just because it is not politically correct to say it, it doesn't mean it is not true.

I do agree with you here. I was just reading @jofwu comments on Reddit and he did say something about her pose making her look too much like superman, just as her facial expression was a tad overdone. I would add the fact the most impressive elements of the picture (the thunderclast looming above the fight) aren't shown on the cover, hence we loose every single visual impacts the full drawing does have. All we are left is with Jasnah having a rather unnatural "look at me" pose which I now think is a shame. 

It might not be sexist (FYI I don't actually think it is sexist), but I am starting to wish they had gone with a different imagery for the cover, something more grand which would do justice to the world Brandon is trying to built. I also seriously wonder what prompt Brandon to request Jasnah to be put onto the book cover... It got everyone expecting her to play a massive role into the next book when Brandon stated she was just a supporting character and she didn't have such a big role (mind it might turn out being bigger than I think based on his commentary. I have noticed Brandon seems to downplay the arcs of his favorite characters and overplay the ones from this least favorites), but still.... I sort of wish he had gone with Dalinar and/or Shallan, what was the urge to put Jasnah onto the book cover? Marketing? 

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

@ beauty of main characters in SA: I don't remember the parts about jasnah and navani being praised for beauty by the general public, but if you say there are, then I trust you. Then... yeah, there is a statistical anomaly there. Probably my mind was toning down those descriptions exactly to mitigate that statistical anomaly. Well, I already admitted all his main female characters are at least sensibly above average (with the exception of short stories; I did not include Silence or shai because I don't remember any real description of them). At least the supporting cast seems to be evenly distributed. Oh, by the way, if they ever make movies out of his books, you can bet all the girls would be drop-dead-gorgeous anyway. maybe shai would have a soulstamp that would turn her into a supermodel, and she would use that to seduce the guards into letting her go. but only after facing the undead things and taking obligtory clothing damage

Oh do not trust me... I might be wrong , but my perception has always been both women were considered fabulously pretty. As for the movie, have you ever seen anyone suggesting an actress which wasn't drop-dead gorgeous for any female role? As for the men... well... I have to say most suggestions aren't up to par, even when people are trying to cast male characters described as being very handsome. There is a double standard.

[king of nowhere]

They had a perfectly good image for the cover, i.e. the full image. the choice of zooming it on jasnah, losing all the context, is... questionable. hopefully, the rest of the image would still be visible in the back. As for its capability of attracting new readers, I cannot judge, since I don't pick books based on the cover. In fact, I am familiar enough of marketing ploys - and suspicious enough - that I never buy anything new unless a friend recommends it to me. That puts me in a bad position to judge how effective a marketing ploy actually is.

[Spoolofwhool]

While it's a shame that a lot of the awesome background is cut out, the thunderclast and the soldiers, the amount of space and prominence that Jasnah takes on the cover looks to be about equal to the amount of space and prominence that Kaladin takes on the cover of Words of Radiance, so I disagree with the argument that the cover is poorly choosing its object of prominence. While there is still the point that the overall spread of Words of Radiance has less prominent elements than the Oathbreaker full cover, keeping the format of a single character in prominence isn't something to criticize. Also, Kaladin's pose is just as much a "look how cool I am" as Jasnah's, (and is pretty good looking, though more rugged face) and in fact is less utilitarian than her's, so in my opinion, the argument is breaking down into character gender over artistic design.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Yata]

16 hours ago, maxal said:

 

As for her figure, well, this is an issue in most works of fiction: women aren't seen doing any physical exercise and yet they retain perfect figures. For Jasnah, to have kept a perfectly slim figure with absolutely no signs of curves at the wrong places while being in her mid-thirties, considering she isn't doing any physical activities whatsoever, worst she eats sweet food all day long is a tad unrealistic. The same could be said about Shallan who spent her teenager years looked into a tower, sitting and drawing. WoT at least had the sense to make a point of stating how unfit Egwene was before her time with the running Aiels. 

Obviously, people will jump in stating how there are people who are naturally slim without doing much, which is true, but very rare, but more importantly, those people do not look athletic. They are slim, but soft, especially when they reach their thirties, but Jasnah her looks like she has been training hard for years. That is slightly bothersome. Maybe there is a backstory we do not know here, maybe she fit up during her time in Shadesmar, but quite frankly "sword yielding fighting Jasnah" does not make much sense at this point within the story. So we'll see how the story goes, maybe there is a rational we haven't gotten yet. 

Well Rosharans seem to be more Age resistent than usual. Also the lower gravity helps...Lastly Jasnah is a radiant. She is a radiant from 16 years, stormlight's healing+an user with an High view of herself could do probably Just we see. A women struck near to the perfection without too effort.

16 hours ago, maxal said:

As for the weight question.... I am a woman: there are no right answer. Sorry guys  The: "Honey, do I look fat in this?" or the "Honey, do you think I gained weight" questions are complete traps for you: nothing you will say and/or say will go down right. Nothing. I

I know and this is the reason I use to be 100% honest with my fiance. She will go Mad regardless what I said, so no point into lie to her (and out effort in doing It).

Returning to the cover. It is a bit too old School for me. For example I liked much more the sketchs than the complete work.

[BlackYeti]

I agree completely with @Spoolofwhool here. In fact, I've created a graphic to try and illustrate this:

Dalinar occupies 8.7cm * 5.39cm ≈ 47cm².
Kaladin occupies 8.86cm * 7.67cm - 4.63cm * 2.89cm ≈ 54.5cm².
And Jasnah occupies 10.11cm * 4.96cm ≈ 50cm².

So I think it's clear: of the three, Kaladin is the most attention hungry! 

The only real difference between the covers then is the background, with the first two depicting the Shattered Plains, and the third a wall; and this comes down to the locations of the respective scenes.

I'd also point out that whilst all three characters are posed, out of all of them, only Jasnah is actually doing something constructive (repairing the wall so that the bad guys don't kill everyone).

In short, I don't think there's any issue with the cover whatsoever, and I don't think that it should have been done any differently (of course I may be biased since Jasnah is my favourite character).

[Jondesu]

Huh, @BlackYeti, my only issue is that the title was moved to the bottom of the image. 

[maxal]

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

They had a perfectly good image for the cover, i.e. the full image. the choice of zooming it on jasnah, losing all the context, is... questionable. hopefully, the rest of the image would still be visible in the back. As for its capability of attracting new readers, I cannot judge, since I don't pick books based on the cover. In fact, I am familiar enough of marketing ploys - and suspicious enough - that I never buy anything new unless a friend recommends it to me. That puts me in a bad position to judge how effective a marketing ploy actually is.

I don't pick books based on the covers but I have allowed both WoK and WoR to rest at my work place for a few months. People's reaction to the WoR cover weren't so great, but the WoK cover, at least, drew a few eyebrows, so yes, I would say there are definitely those who'd judge a book based on its cover. As for myself, I wasn't sure about reading WoK as I wasn't sure if I'd like it nor did I know Brandon all that well back then, but the cover... That cover made me want to read this book. 

I can't say WoR and Oathbringer covers are doing the same, just my two cents anyway. However, if the context of the Jasnah cover had bee retained, then I think it would have made a better cover.

7 hours ago, Yata said:

Well Rosharans seem to be more Age resistent than usual. Also the lower gravity helps...Lastly Jasnah is a radiant. She is a radiant from 16 years, stormlight's healing+an user with an High view of herself could do probably Just we see. A women struck near to the perfection without too effort.

Where do you get Jasnah has been a Radiant for 16 years? According to the text, Jasnah made her first trip to Shadesmar and learned about Ivory 6 years ago, not 16. I also do not think we have a WoB which states being a Radiant helps maintain one's figure... I would think it merely enhances what is already there thus athletic sword fighting Jasnah is a tough sell, to me. I find it seriously annoying when characters go from zero fitness level to badass fitness level with limited training in the span of a few weeks just because the story demands it, so in this essence, the Jasnah's depiction does borrow on several of those tropes. Mind, it might not be Brandon's fault, it most probably was Michael's artistic license, but I wish artists would be more truthful of the written material. 

7 hours ago, Yata said:

I know and this is the reason I use to be 100% honest with my fiance. She will go Mad regardless what I said, so no point into lie to her (and out effort in doing It).

Returning to the cover. It is a bit too old School for me. For example I liked much more the sketchs than the complete work.

Yeah.... Women are complicated. The "best" answer probably is something along those lines: "How do you feel about "insert piece of clothe"?" or to merely anticipate  the question is coming and drown her in compliments before she has the time to drop the bomb...  I think it might be written into our genes or something... The worst possible answers probably are: "yes", "no", "hmm" 

The more I think about it, the more I would have preferred if the book cover depicted one of the amazing settings the story takes place at as opposed to... just Jasnah. Urithiru, Kholinar, I mean there was choice. I want to dream when I look at a cover and this one doesn't do it, not for me. If there is one place where world-building has to shine, I think it certainly is within the art.

1 hour ago, BlackYeti said:

I agree completely with @Spoolofwhool here. In fact, I've created a graphic to try and illustrate this:

Dalinar occupies 8.7cm * 5.39cm ≈ 47cm².
Kaladin occupies 8.86cm * 7.67cm - 4.63cm * 2.89cm ≈ 54.5cm².
And Jasnah occupies 10.11cm * 4.96cm ≈ 50cm².

So I think it's clear: of the three, Kaladin is the most attention hungry! 

The only real difference between the covers then is the background, with the first two depicting the Shattered Plains, and the third a wall; and this comes down to the locations of the respective scenes.

I'd also point out that whilst all three characters are posed, out of all of them, only Jasnah is actually doing something constructive (repairing the wall so that the bad guys don't kill everyone).

In short, I don't think there's any issue with the cover whatsoever, and I don't think that it should have been done any differently (of course I may be biased since Jasnah is my favourite character).

 That's good post, thanks for taking the measurements. I'd say I am not overly found of the Kaladin cover either: his pose also is a tab unnatural, but at least, he doesn't have the "look at me, I am gorgeous" pose with a superior air the Jasnah one seems to have. Also, it had a bit of background which was nice to see, rock buds and everything. Jasnah has... a wall... 

My problem mostly is with the setup, with the fact the nicest portions of the drawing aren't shown on the actual cover and with the pose the artists has chosen to draw Jasnah in. I also wonder why Brandon choose Jasnah, it seems a odd pick, to me at least, but I may be biased because I really wanted to see Dalinar, without his armor  maybe in the inside cover?

[Yata]

37 minutes ago, maxal said:

Where do you get Jasnah has been a Radiant for 16 years? According to the text, Jasnah made her first trip to Shadesmar and learned about Ivory 6 years ago, not 16. I also do not think we have a WoB which states being a Radiant helps maintain one's figure... I would think it merely enhances what is already there thus athletic sword fighting Jasnah is a tough sell, to me. I find it seriously annoying when characters go from zero fitness level to badass fitness level with limited training in the span of a few weeks just because the story demands it, so in this essence, the Jasnah's depiction does borrow on several of those tropes. Mind, it might not be Brandon's fault, it most probably was Michael's artistic license, but I wish artists would be more truthful of the written material. 

You have right I messed with the date, the first sure istance of Jasnah as radiant was 6 years before.

What I wanted to say it is not about "Radiant becomes Athletic or badass", my point was about someone like Jasnah who is in the elite and has an high opinion of self and the "restore Cognitive Image" on how the Cosmere Healing works.

So nevermind if she got some fat or lose some muscle fiber....the next time she drawn in Stormlight probably this issues are "fixed" to a certain degree.

This could be the case of other Radiant as well, if they see themself in a certain way (to say I really doubt this kind of trick could be used by Shallan).

PS: In theory this trick could be used also to take the body to an athletic standard without no effort. But I really fatigue to figure how a guy could see himself different than how he already is. So te trick is great for mantain your standard, not really good to improvement.

44 minutes ago, maxal said:

Yeah.... Women are complicated. The "best" answer probably is something along those lines: "How do you feel about "insert piece of clothe"?" or to merely anticipate  the question is coming and drown her in compliments before she has the time to drop the bomb...  I think it might be written into our genes or something... The worst possible answers probably are: "yes", "no", "hmm" 

She stopped to ask me about wardrobe because I see her beautiful regardless what she wears...so no problem there XD

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

I agree completely with @Spoolofwhool here. In fact, I've created a graphic to try and illustrate this:

 

Dalinar occupies 8.7cm * 5.39cm ≈ 47cm².
Kaladin occupies 8.86cm * 7.67cm - 4.63cm * 2.89cm ≈ 54.5cm².
And Jasnah occupies 10.11cm * 4.96cm ≈ 50cm².

So I think it's clear: of the three, Kaladin is the most attention hungry! 

 

And yet, even seeing the measurements, jasnah still seems bigger. Probably because she's in the center, while kaladin is nestled in a corner. Also the kaladin cover loses context without seeing szeth on the other side, though.

2 hours ago, maxal said:

 I also do not think we have a WoB which states being a Radiant helps maintain one's figure... I would think it merely enhances what is already there

No, but we have several precedents in the cosmere for invested people looking the way they think they should, most notably the returned and the functioning of healing. So if kaladin loses the freedom tattoo every time he takes in stomrlight because the stormlight heals him and he does not see the tattoo as belonging to him, then assuming that jasnah loses extra fat every time she takes in stormlight because she doesn't see the fat as belonging to her is a small step.

Then again, I just came back form a museum where there was an ancient book as big as me, if those are the books jasnah is reading it totally justifies her frame

P.S. regarding the women & weight argument: generally whenever a woman mentions dieting I tell her that she's perfect as she is. My rationale is that most women who are dieting don't really need it, but they do it so that they can tell others that they are dieting, and others will then say "you don't need, you're perfect as you are"; so they tell they are dieting ultimately because they are fishing for compliments, and I skip directly to the end of the process. I also explain the rationale afterwards; most of them laugh.

[Brackcha]

I don't think that the cover is overly sexualized. I think the illustrator just went for a traditional "heroic" pose that just looks cool and flashy and isn't overly practical you see it often and I see this one as no different than the other covers. The only thing that sparked a controversy was the characters gender and the genres problem with its portrayal of that gender. I like the art though I agree the formatting ruins it but pinning it on the illustration seems wrong to me the format is what makes Jasnah so front and centre not necessarily the illustration 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Brackcha said:

I don't think that the cover is overly sexualized. I think the illustrator just went for a traditional "heroic" pose that just looks cool and flashy and isn't overly practical you see it often and I see this one as no different than the other covers. The only thing that sparked a controversy was the characters gender and the genres problem with its portrayal of that gender. I like the art though I agree the formatting ruins it but pinning it on the illustration seems wrong to me the format is what makes Jasnah so front and centre not necessarily the illustration 

Exactly. In fact, looking at Kaladin's pose on the cover of WoR, it's even more flashy and impractical than Jasnah's.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[soyperson]

1 hour ago, Brackcha said:

I don't think that the cover is overly sexualized. I think the illustrator just went for a traditional "heroic" pose that just looks cool and flashy and isn't overly practical you see it often and I see this one as no different than the other covers. The only thing that sparked a controversy was the characters gender and the genres problem with its portrayal of that gender. I like the art though I agree the formatting ruins it but pinning it on the illustration seems wrong to me the format is what makes Jasnah so front and centre not necessarily the illustration 

I don't find it to be sexualized at all. She just looks really badchull 

Edited March 19, 2017 by bleeder

[+Extesian]

I'm wary of engaging in discussion of the sexualisation of women on something like a book cover but I'm say two things.

1. A female member of the most powerful house of a powerful nation will often be more beautiful than average, that's natural selection sadly. Powerful people get to marry beautiful people (of both genders).

2. Any woman single-handedly battling a monster is going to be beautiful because she's single-handedly battling a monster I didn't even notice her specs I just noticed her being TOTALLY AWESOME. 

[Farnsworth]

I really don't know why we're having this discussion. Let me just say this. 

JASNAH IS STORMING AWESOME 

[Hemalurgic Headshot]

The most sexualized thing on the cover is that thunderclast. Storms, it's not even wearing clothes, like, gosh!

[Erandeni]

24 minutes ago, Hemalurgic_Headshot said:

The most sexualized thing on the cover is that thunderclast. Storms, it's not even wearing clothes, like, gosh!

It has unrealistics measurements too.