Cosmere Savant

Are there really 16 Surges?

38 posts in this topic

Well we know that the number 16 is very important to the Cosmere and when I first read WoK I was suprised that the number 10 seemed to repeat so often. So my theory is: there are really 16 Surges. So some backing I have for this idea is that there are 2 basic types of spren Spren (normal spren like Angerspren) and BondSpren (like HonorSpren) and Bondspren are the things that bond with the Knights Radiant but also bond with Listeners. So my thought is 10 types of Bondspren collecttively chose to become RadiantSpren and the other 6 chose to become ListenerSpren. 

This I think is were the forms of power originate from. They are forms of power because they are literally bonded to a Spren that allows them access to Surges. 

As a sidenote I wonder what it would be like to see Kalladin fighting a RadiantListener.

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Depending on how you count, there are 30 magic systems on Roshar. Or three - Surgebinding is one but then it's also ten smaller systems.

Anyway, Rosharan magic systems grant access to the Ten Surges, each in its own way (Surgebinding by establishing a Nahel bond with spren, Voidbinding (probably) by bonding/merging with spren to enter the Form of Power, the third system in the third way).

All in all, the conclusion is simple: it's 10, not 16.

Edited by Oversleep
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On 3/15/2017 at 4:18 PM, Cosmere Savant said:

Well we know that the number 16 is very important to the Cosmere and when I first read WoK I was suprised that the number 10 seemed to repeat so often. So my theory is: there are really 16 Surges. So some backing I have for this idea is that there are 2 basic types of spren Spren (normal spren like Angerspren) and BondSpren (like HonorSpren) and Bondspren are the things that bond with the Knights Radiant but also bond with Listeners. So my thought is 10 types of Bondspren collecttively chose to become RadiantSpren and the other 6 chose to become ListenerSpren. 

This I think is were the forms of power originate from. They are forms of power because they are literally bonded to a Spren that allows them access to Surges. 

As a sidenote I wonder what it would be like to see Kalladin fighting a RadiantListener.

I believe 10 is reported to be an important number in the Rosharan system; e.g. 10 Heralds, 10 surges, etc. in a similar way that 16 was important in the Scadrian system.

Also, AU spoiler:

Spoiler

We are shown there are 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system, each named after one of the 10 Heralds.

 

Edit: Why was I downvoted for this??

Edited by CaptainRyan
confused
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I had the same thought, actually.

 

Spoiler

I'm suspicious that the mistborn books were started with 10 metals, then we come to find out there are actually 16 ( 8 and their alloys ), then here's Roshar starting with 10 surges.  

I suspect that even if there are only 10 surges, we'll find some relation to 16 later on.  Of possible note is that 16 IS 10 in hexadecimal.  I don't know how that could possibly relate, but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

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8 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Depending on how you count, there are 30 magic systems on Roshar. Or three - Surgebinding is one but then it's also ten smaller systems.

Anyway, Rosharan magic systems grant access to the Ten Surges, each in its own way (Surgebinding by establishing a Nahel bond with spren, Voidbinding (probably) by bonding/merging with spren to enter the Form of Power, the third system in the third way).

All in all, the conclusion is simple: it's 10, not 16.

Whilst I generally agree, I have to point out that Voidbinding is definitely not what is happening when Listeners bond with Voidspren, or their use of the powers this granted to them. This is implied by the fact we have seen that happen and the following WoB says that we haven't seen Voidbinding: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1152#71

Quote

QUESTION

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them [have been seen?]

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would see the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

Other than that, the OP is interesting, and I'm not sure it can be disproved as yet... But I believe more than five forms of power (other than Stormfather) are listed in the various Listener song snippets we have, which would indicate more than 16 Spren types capable of granting that level of power. (Having said that, I can only remember Nightform, Smokeform and Decayform off the top of my head...)

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9 hours ago, grasshoppa said:

I had the same thought, actually.

 

  Hide contents

I'm suspicious that the mistborn books were started with 10 metals, then we come to find out there are actually 16 ( 8 and their alloys ), then here's Roshar starting with 10 surges.  

I suspect that even if there are only 10 surges, we'll find some relation to 16 later on.  Of possible note is that 16 IS 10 in hexadecimal.  I don't know how that could possibly relate, but I'm throwing it out there anyway.

Well, there are strictly ten of everything in the Rosharan systems, when in Mistborn, even in era one, they were ignoring some metals. Like malatium. 

Spoiler

And then we get lerasium in book two.

Meanwhile, everything has stayed strictly ten for Stormlight. 

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4 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Other than that, the OP is interesting, and I'm not sure it can be disproved as yet... But I believe more than five forms of power (other than Stormfather) are listed in the various Listener song snippets we have, which would indicate more than 16 Spren types capable of granting that level of power. (Having said that, I can only remember Nightform, Smokeform and Decayform off the top of my head...)

I'm not saying that there are only 6 forms that frant some supernatural ability but I am saying that not all of the forms of power have to do with the surges. I was kinda thinking that forms like stormform have something to do with the surges but other foems while still possessing the ability to create incredible effects those affects might be from the source of simple biology (warform).

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13 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I believe 10 is reported to be an important number in the Rosharan system; e.g. 10 Heralds, 10 surges, etc. in a similar way that 16 was important in the Scadrian system.

Also, AU spoiler:

  Hide contents

We are shown there are 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system, each named after one of the 10 Heralds.

 

Actually, 

Spoiler

The gas giants are numbered 1-10, and those numbers are named after the Heralds. The planets aren't necessarily named after the Heralds directly.

 

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Whether 10 is important to Roshar or not 16 is very important to the Cosmere so I'm sure we'll see something that has to do with 16 in Stormlight Archive. What do you think it will be?

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5 minutes ago, Cosmere Savant said:

Whether 10 is important to Roshar or not 16 is very important to the Cosmere so I'm sure we'll see something that has to do with 16 in Stormlight Archive. What do you think it will be?

We have seen sixteen mentioned already in a death rattle. Whether or not it appears within the scope of the societal or magical levels of Roshar, I'm more doubtful. Whatever is causing the number ten, it appears to be more dominant than the general number sixteen in the Cosmere. 

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I think that maybe 10 is kinda've a surface number and 16 will be found later floating a little deeper in the ocean of Rosharian magical numbers.

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1 hour ago, Cosmere Savant said:

I think that maybe 10 is kinda've a surface number and 16 will be found later floating a little deeper in the ocean of Rosharian magical numbers.

Maybe, but I don't think so. Ten looks to be a pretty deep number on Roshar and possibly the Greater Roshar System. I really doubt sixteen will appear much or in any significant way because ten has already been indicated to be extremely significant in all levels. I don't think that sixteen being important in the Cosmere means that it will appear everywhere.

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47 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Maybe, but I don't think so. Ten looks to be a pretty deep number on Roshar and possibly the Greater Roshar System. I really doubt sixteen will appear much or in any significant way because ten has already been indicated to be extremely significant in all levels. I don't think that sixteen being important in the Cosmere means that it will appear everywhere.

I have to agree. We've seen magic from Sel, Nalthis, First of the Sun, etc... none if them have 16 as an important number.

I believe this idea stems from Scadrial where many of us were introduced to the Cosmere; and seeing as the number 16 is obviously prevalent on Scadrial, upon learning there are 16 Shards of Adonalasim, the obvious conjecture is "16 is important in the Cosmere". 

Unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case. 16 is probably only important to Preservation: his attempt to Preserve History perhaps?

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Not all shards have a number with special significance, and those that do wouldn't necessarily share the same number. Here's a paraphrased WoB:

Quote

Q: Cool, do all shards have a number they're associated with?
A: Some do, (Most? Some?) don't. (I didn't get exact wording on this one)

Source: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22462-portland-signing-116/?do=findComment&comment=217255

 

Here's an interesting Reddit comment on numbers on shardworlds:

Quote

Yes, there were 16 Shards. Preservation used the number 16 in the shaping of Scadrial. However, different numbers show up prominently on different worlds. My guess is that there is some kind of ordering to the Shards such that different shards have different numbers that they are attuned to.

  • On Taldain (White Sand), the number 8 seems particularly important. There are 8 ranks in the Diem, and 8 Taishas rule over Lossand.

  • Nalthis (Warbreaker) the key number is 5. There were 5 scholars, there are 5 tenets of Austre, and 25 temples for the Returned (someone please check me on that last one)

  • As you've noted, Roshar's number is 10. 10 Heralds, 10 orders of Surgebinding, and so forth.

  • I'm not quite as sure about Sel. I could guess 3 based on the triad chapter structure of Elantris, but it's certainly not as clear as the other worlds.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/Cosmere/comments/5f37dp/all_why_10_instead_of_16_on_roshar/dahpfo2/

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Right... 16 for preservation.

10 for Roshar.

i expect one for autonomy.

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There are 16 bodies orbiting the rosharan sun. Ashyn, Rosher, Roshar's three moons, Braize, and the 10 outer gas giants. So there is a link to both 10 and 16. Do we know (or have any guesses) what cultivation's number could be? 

 

That said, I'm assuming the rosharan system was already set up the way it was prior to honor and cultivation showing up. It doesn't seem like they would have created 10 new planets or something. Maybe the shards gravitated to systems that reflected them?

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On 3/21/2017 at 9:11 AM, Shard Slayer said:

There are 16 bodies orbiting the rosharan sun. Ashyn, Rosher, Roshar's three moons, Braize, and the 10 outer gas giants. So there is a link to both 10 and 16. Do we know (or have any guesses) what cultivation's number could be? 

 

That said, I'm assuming the rosharan system was already set up the way it was prior to honor and cultivation showing up. It doesn't seem like they would have created 10 new planets or something. Maybe the shards gravitated to systems that reflected them?

Roshar itself was in the system, but 10gas giants, and 10 Heralds that go off planet regularly stinks of Investiture manipulation. 

Also Scadrial didn't exist at all prior to P&R showing up.

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On 3/21/2017 at 7:11 AM, Shard Slayer said:

There are 16 bodies orbiting the rosharan sun. Ashyn, Rosher, Roshar's three moons, Braize, and the 10 outer gas giants. So there is a link to both 10 and 16. Do we know (or have any guesses) what cultivation's number could be? 

So are you saying that 16 and 10 could both be related to Stormlight Archive? And do we know that every Shard has a number?

 

And back to an earlier question can Listeners bond Radiantspren like Honorspren?

Edited by Cosmere Savant
Had some extra thoughts
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1 hour ago, Cosmere Savant said:

And back to an earlier question can Listeners bond Radiantspren like Honorspren?

I don't remember exactly where I read it (as is usual with me), but I remember hearing that Listeners can not only bond Radiant Spren but can use them to Surgebind like any "human" Radiant.

1 hour ago, Cosmere Savant said:

And do we know that every Shard has a number?

We don't know for certain, as far as I know, but we have many examples of Shards preferring to choose certain numbers over others. So there could be a Shard that has no set number, but precedent leans against it.

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1 hour ago, Elenion said:

I don't remember exactly where I read it (as is usual with me), but I remember hearing that Listeners can not only bond Radiant Spren but can use them to Surgebind like any "human" Radiant.

Here are three WoB that say, very clearly, that it hasn't happened before (wink wink):

http://theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Parshendi+Radiant

1 hour ago, Elenion said:

We don't know for certain, as far as I know, but we have many examples of Shards preferring to choose certain numbers over others. So there could be a Shard that has no set number, but precedent leans against it.

This interview talks about that a bit, with regards to the Greater Rosharan System (question 7 onwards for a few questions):

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1179

  • QUESTION

    Is there more significance to the 10 other planets around the Rosharian start system and them being gaseous? We know that Roshar's moons have unnatural orbits; so there seems to be some astronomical manipulation in the system.

    BRANDON SANDERSON

    Yes there is significance of 16 in cosmere and 10 in Rosharian system.

    TAGS

    rosharan system ,  base 10
  • 8

    QUESTION

    The outer 10 gas giants in the Rosharan system suggest a tie to the number 10 that predates the arrival of the current Shards. Is the prominent numerology we see around the Cosmere an inherent property of the planets, rather than the Shards who invest them?

    BRANDON SANDERSON

    Big RAFO

    TAGS

    cosmere numerology
  • 9

    QUESTION

    Would Ashyn/Braize share the 10-centric numerology of Roshar?

    BRANDON SANDERSON

    Yes 10-centric is for the entire Rosharian planetary system...wait Braize is 9-centric

    TAGS

    ashyn ,  braize ,  rosharan system
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So braize is 9-centric that's interesting.  I wonder if that may be because 9 is the inverse of 6 and 6 is widely reveared as being associated with evil in wester cultures

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42 minutes ago, stonedshaman said:

So braize is 9-centric that's interesting.  I wonder if that may be because 9 is the inverse of 6 and 6 is widely reveared as being associated with evil in wester cultures

I highly doubt it; Brandon almost never uses simplistic binaries of "good" and "evil." I'm sure once we meet Odium/Rayse in person, he'll be a more nuanced character that some may even sympathize with. There's been a lot of separate theorizing about each planetary system/shard's "number" and what each could mean. 

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Yeah I agree with you.  My comment was basically just spitballing the first idea that came into my head lol.  I hope for the type of depth you speak of and honestly kind of expect it from sanderson

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If each Shard has an associated number, it makes sense to me that Preservation and the cosmere in general are associated with 16. After all, Preservation's Ideal is based on staying the same, tradition, etc. When Andonalsium shattered, I wouldn't be surprised if Preservation "kept" 16 as it's associated number. 

 

Spoiler

And, during Secret History, we hear Preservation muttering. Is it possible Leras chose 16 as a sign to more cosmere-aware folks?

 

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46 minutes ago, Nicrosil said:

If each Shard has an associated number, it makes sense to me that Preservation and the cosmere in general are associated with 16. After all, Preservation's Ideal is based on staying the same, tradition, etc. When Andonalsium shattered, I wouldn't be surprised if Preservation "kept" 16 as it's associated number. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

And, during Secret History, we hear Preservation muttering. Is it possible Leras chose 16 as a sign to more cosmere-aware folks?

 

Only some shards have numbers. That's a good thought though.

 

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