Compounding Reforged Metalminds

[8bitBob]

I've been stalking Brandon on reddit for more ideas and I came across a really interesting post here:

Quote

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

This holds for basic uses of the metallurgic arts. Once you start playing with some of the more advanced parts of the magic, you can achieve different results, which are currently RAFO

The whole thread is interesting, especially this post, but I'm most interested in the last line of this one. From what I can tell, altering the physical makeup of the metal does not alter the Investiture inside. This causes problems for "basic uses" i.e. tapping, but not necessarily for "advanced uses." To me, compounding is our most clear example of an advanced use of the metallurgic arts, and I've got a mini theory on how this would play out.

Let's use the example of Iron. I propose that you could fill an Ironmind with unkeyed weight, melt it down and turn it into Steel, give it to a Coinshot and then have them burn it to increase their weight.

This would be inline with what we understand about compounding. Feruchemical charge in a metal has been described as "creating a new metal for the Allomancer to burn," and while this is a mixing of different metals and effects, it would still just be another new metal that grants weight instead of speed when burned. In effect, Mistings could potentially have access to many different Feruchemical abilities, not just one.

Thoughts?

Edited March 13, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Modal Seoul]

I think seeing this happen with Hemalurgy would be even more, er, terrifying, I guess. Also, I don't think this would work on Twinborn, because they already burn a metal, and if they tried this, I don't think it would end well.

[The One Who Connects]

51 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

Let's use the example of Iron. I propose that you could fill an Ironmind with unkeyed weight, melt it down and turn it into Steel, give it to a Coinshot and then have them burn it to increase their weight.

I feel like there was a thread about this before, but it might've just been whether it would still be considered "iron" enough to withdraw that weight after being forged into steel. I'll see if I can find it, since the answer to that would probably be very relevant to answering this. Anyway, as it stands I see 4 possible outcomes to your idea:

1. It's not "iron" enough to register as holding weight, so it gives A-Steel
2. It's not "iron" but it is still holding F-Investiture, so it gives compounded F-Steel
   • Normal Steel is 96% Iron, so these sound unlikely, but that 4 percent Carbon is enough to make it a different metal...
3. It recognizes the stored power as F-Iron and overwrites the Steel, giving compounded F-Iron
4. It recognizes the stored power as F-Iron and the Metal as Steel, and does something... unforeseen
   • The end result of burning could be compounded F-Iron like #3, or you've somehow made Investiture interfere with Investiture in the same magic system and get some combination of the above choices

This thought exercise of yours feels like you've made a Steel Metalmind that stores Weight, which is just straight cheating

[8bitBob]

42 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's not "iron" enough to register as holding weight, so it gives A-Steel

The post says it would have some interesting effects, so I feel like it wouldn't just be regular Allomancy. While this does not necessarily have to refer to compounding, it's one of the few example I can think of for "advanced uses." Totally possible that it just acts like regular Steel though, similar to compounding keyed metalminds.

42 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's not "iron" but it is still holding F-Investiture, so it gives compounded F-Steel

This one seems particularly unlikely to me. From this thread, every example is said to not alter the Investiture, and turning it back into its original metal allows you to tap it fine. They even used the more extreme example of Pewter. Even if the chemical makeup has changed, it seems unlikely that it would change how the Investiture shapes the magic to such an extreme degree. This would imply that it's the chemical makeup of the metal that is more important when shaping the magic, despite the fact that a Feruchemical charge completely overwrites the results normally.

42 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It recognizes the stored power as F-Iron and the Metal as Steel, and does something... unforeseen

This is totally possible, but here's my thinking: having Feruchemical Investiture in your metal could have all kinds of crazy effects when you burn it, but out of all of the infinite possible outcomes... it shapes the Investiture in exactly the same way as the Feruchemy. I don't think it's crazy to guess that it would do the same here.

42 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

This thought exercise of yours feels like you've made a Steel Metalmind that stores Weight, which is just straight cheating

It's a Steelmind that has weight trapped in it, and I believe that to be an important distinction. You can't store weight in it anymore, but you can store speed. It's still behaving like a Steelmind, it just has some other stuff stuck in there.

edit 2: removed added quote as it was the same. Don't mind me while I work this out.

So, why can't a Feruchemist get it out, but an Allomancer can? Well, maybe they don't. It's been theorized before that an Allomancer never actually draws out the Investiture in a metalmind, but rather that the power entirely comes from Preservation and the presence of the Feruchemical Investiture just shapes it and is simply released as it burns. Under that logic, this would work fine.

 

As an extra question to bake your noodle: what happens when you burn Steel that has weight and speed?

Edited March 13, 2017 by 8bitBob

[The One Who Connects]

I did say the first two sounded pretty unlikely.

2 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

From this thread, every example is said to not alter the Investiture, and turning it back into its original metal allows you to tap it fine. They even used the more extreme example of Pewter.

Funnily enough, that "extreme example of Pewter" is actually why I suggested that your idea could give F-Steel. Per Brandon:

Quote

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally.

You can't get the investiture out of an impure alteration, but the Investiture stays. So I imagined that you could get Investiture out by making it a pure composition. It just happens to be a different one than you started with, so you get a different power. Investiture isn't technically altered, merely the keyhole to let it in is changed.

6 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

Even if the chemical makeup has changed, it seems unlikely that it would change how the Investiture shapes the magic to such an extreme degree. This would imply that it's the chemical makeup of the metal that is more important when shaping the magic, despite the fact that a Feruchemical charge completely overwrites the results normally.

For Allomancy, it's the (molecular?) pattern of the metal that shapes the power, like the design of Aons do. For Feruchemy to be able to draw distinctions between the metals for storing, they have to follow something that says "this is Iron, store Weight" or "this is Steel, store Speed." Have I gone too far in assuming that it follows the same pattern Allomancy does, or did I just not explain it well enough to begin with?(I've done that a lot lately..)

12 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

It's a Steelmind that has weight trapped in it, and I believe that to be an important distinction.

Fair enough.

14 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

As an extra question to bake your noodle: what happens when you burn Steel that has weight and speed?

World record for the heaviest track runner. Honestly, I feel like it'd find a way to give both, but without the separations they had when being stored.

[8bitBob]

31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I did say the first two sounded pretty unlikely.

Sorry, I missed that part. My bad!

31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

You can't get the investiture out of an impure alteration, but the Investiture stays. So I imagined that you could get Investiture out by making it a pure composition. It just happens to be a different one than you started with, so you get a different power. Investiture isn't technically altered, merely the keyhole to let it in is changed.

Ohhh okay, I think I get what you're saying here. I totally did not consider that interpretation. I feel it's contradicted by another section of the WoB though:

Quote

If you make it impure, you'll keep the investiture, but won't be able to get it out. If you make it back into the same thing, you'll be fine, and can access it normally. If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

He specifically refers to the old Investiture in a new but viable metal as "corrupted sectors" that reduce how much you can charge it. To me, that seems to imply that it's totally useless for Feruchemical purposes until you change it back to the same metal.

31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

For Allomancy, it's the (molecular?) pattern of the metal that shapes the power, like the design of Aons do. For Feruchemy to be able to draw distinctions between the metals for storing, they have to follow something that says "this is Iron, store Weight" or "this is Steel, store Speed."

I think we're in agreement how this works as far as basic Allomancy and Feruchemy works, and is supported by the fact that Feruchemists can't access the charge after the metal has been changed: Feruchemists can't tap or store more weight in the Steel because the molecular structure has changed. This is how it normally works. WoB has described compounding as creating a "new metal that the Allomancer can burn" though. To me, it seems like the Feruchemical charge is just completely overriding the base metal, seeing as it doesn't create a new or hybrid power, but rather a pure Feruchemical power. I'm suggesting that this means that the base metal is ultimately unimportant for compounding if you can get different Investiture in there.

Ooooh, another interesting thought. What happens in you burn Awakened steel that has no Identity? (That is not sentient like Nightblood, 'cause that's a whole other can of worms.)

Edited March 13, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Oversleep]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I feel like there was a thread about this before

but there was also one about "whether the steel is iron is pure enough".

Edited March 13, 2017 by Oversleep

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, 8bitBob said:

He specifically refers to the old Investiture in a new but viable metal as "corrupted sectors" that reduce how much you can charge it. To me, that seems to imply that it's totally useless for Feruchemical purposes until you change it back to the same metal.

I more read it as some of the old F-attribute didn't change to the new one, so it's taking up space that you can no longer access. Not that you specifically disagree, but given how most new metals (steel for our purposes) will still be partly the old metal(Iron), there should still be a bit of F-Iron power that feels like it's where it belongs.

I am slightly lost now though... is this what Taravangian feels like writing equations and questions for his tomorrow self?

3 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

 

Not exactly the thread I was thinking of, but at least my memory wasn't entirely wrong

[8bitBob]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I more read it as some of the old F-attribute didn't change to the new one, so it's taking up space that you can no longer access. Not that you specifically disagree, but given how most new metals (steel for our purposes) will still be partly the old metal(Iron), there should still be a bit of F-Iron power that feels like it's where it belongs.

Ah gotcha, turns out I still didn't fully understand. Perspective is a pain sometimes.

You've convinced me that this is a reasonable interpretation, but I feel that when he says this line:

Quote

If you try to fill it, after changing the composition to make another viable metal, it will act a little like a computer hard drive with corrupted sectors. Some of it will work for the new investiture, but you won't be able to fill it nearly as full. (Depending on how full it was before you melted down.)

he's more referring to the process of filling it and how some of the metal should still be able to be filled with a new attribute. I've bolded the sections that make me feel he's referring to filling specifically, but it's still possible that he was also saying that you can use some of the Investiture still. That feels wrong to me, but I can't say it is for sure.

[Richard Kopelow]

Hi guys, I don't have the WOB on hand to back this up but I swear it exists. As I understand how compounding works, when the investiture from Preservation comes through the metal it sees the Feruchemical charge and says "Oh, (insert power here), I can do that" and does that instead. I didn't know that the weight would stay in the forged steel, I assumed it would degrade. With both of these things though it seems pretty clear to me that a coin shot could compound weight trapped in steal because when the Allomancy came through it would see the weight and do that instead.

[Richard Kopelow]

I found it: http://www.dragonmount.com/index.php/News/tom/brandonsanderson/brandon-sanderson-book-signing-report-visit-to-r229

Quote

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored--"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”--and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

 

[8bitBob]

33 minutes ago, RichardKopelow said:

Hi guys, I don't have the WOB on hand to back this up but I swear it exists. As I understand how compounding works, when the investiture from Preservation comes through the metal it sees the Feruchemical charge and says "Oh, (insert power here), I can do that" and does that instead.

I have definitely read the same WoB, and for some reason I can't find it either. I found one with a similar explanation though:

edit: Oh, I see you found it. Thanks again for that. I swear I read it on the database though. Wonder why I can't find it...

edit2: Ah, I see now. It's in the database, but it's only tagged with mistborn, so you won't find it if you search the compounding, allomancy or feruchemy tags. I have no idea how to add such things.

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Nov 16th, 2011

Open The Fridge Interview

OPEN THE FRIDGE

Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

BRANDON SANDERSON

OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

OPEN THE FRIDGE

Not quite...

BRANDON SANDERSON

OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

OPEN THE FRIDGE

My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful

Bolded the most relevant portions. I considered this an idle thought when I posted the thread, so I didn't really bother to drag up any WoB when posting despite knowing of these two. You make a good point that they support the idea pretty well though, so big thanks for that.

With these WoB, I honestly think it's pretty likely that this would work. When you get down to the mechanics of it, this isn't really that crazy of an idea.

Edited March 16, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Richard Kopelow]

It makes sense to me that it should work but why isn't it being done if it does? The first thing I thought of when I found out what metals Wax could use was "Can he make his ironminds into steal and compound". People in world must have thought of it.

[8bitBob]

13 minutes ago, RichardKopelow said:

It makes sense to me that it should work but why isn't it being done if it does? The first thing I thought of when I found out what metals Wax could use was "Can he make his ironminds into steal and compound". People in world must have thought of it.

Oh man, I didn't even think about Wax. I really should have put more thought into this, because I was only thinking about it in terms of using it as a hack to have access to more powers at once via medallions. But yeah, this could theoretically allow him to compound his weight and build a huge reserve. He wouldn't be able to compound more on the fly like Miles could health, but it's still a huge benefit.

As for why no one has thought of it, it's important to remember that we know way more about realmatics than most characters. Most people on Scadrial think that the power comes from metal itself, so of course this wouldn't work in their minds. Twinborn are also incredibly rare, despite how many we've seen in Era 2, and a Twinborn with abilities that share a base metal must be even rarer still, so it's not like just anybody can try it.

Edited March 16, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Richard Kopelow]

I always forget how rare Twinborn are. I have been doing some thinking and it is possible to separate alloys. Think of all the base metals that are alloys with copper. A Brute/Seeker stores strength, splits the alloy to copper and tin, takes the copper, makes brass and compounds (if she make the pewtermind unkeyed she could even sell the strength-tin).

When you break a metal mind the charge is split, so the charge seems to distribute evenly in the metal. I wonder though if forging a metal mind would Invest the part of the alloy that wasn't the metal or if it would stay only in the atoms of the original metal. If it splits, then you could move powers around with serial reforging and create zinc with senses, or bendalloy with mental speed. Some if the percentages are small so you would need to be reforging massive unkeyed metalminds, but maybe possible.

[Djarskublar]

Now here is the real question: what happens when you have multiple types of Investiture stored in the metalmind you are burning. I.e. you take this ironmind with unkeyed charge stored in it, then turn the iron into steel, and store speed in it, then burn it. It now has two things filtering the magic, so do you get some of both, or something altogether new?

[The One Who Connects]

@8bitBob Theoryland lets you search by keyword as well as by tags. So you can find entirely disconnected topics that use the word and might be important to what your searching for. Fair warning that it searches exact words, so we can't shortcut it by searching compound. 

@Djarskublar I feel like it will give you both, but I feel like you won't be able to separate the two. Much like Ruin and Preservation are now Harmony, I feel like Speed and Weight at once would be a combined attribute. Whichever metal you need to store that, I feel that it would store speed and weight together.

It wouldn't be as game breaking as it sounds, since you can't tap the two aspects separately at that point, so what it gains in space efficiency it loses in practicality of use.

[Richard Kopelow]

@Djarskublar you would actually have three things filtering it if you count the metal itself. Though compounding ignores that filter so you might end up only getting the power of the most abundant charge, thought that isn't to exciting so I like what you said better.

@The One Who Connects unless there was a metal that actually stored weight and speed as a combined attribute, you couldn't tap one of the powers at all. In the case of reforged metalminds, there wouldn't be space efficiency because an object can only be so invested, so the capacity would be used up by something that (in it's current state) can't be used Feruchemically.

 

[The One Who Connects]

9 minutes ago, RichardKopelow said:

@The One Who Connects unless there was a metal that actually stored weight and speed as a combined attribute, you couldn't tap one of the powers at all. In the case of reforged metalminds, there wouldn't be space efficiency because an object can only be so invested, so the capacity would be used up by something that (in it's current state) can't be used Feruchemically.

I know there isn't one, but if you could hack the system and get a compound of both charges, then you might be able to con the system again and store that combo charge. The space efficiency comment was aimed at the idea that if you could store double attribute in one Metalmind, a full Feruchemist would not need to carry 1 for each Metal, thus being more space efficient with their "luggage" 

I realize that Metalminds are capped in their own personal storage space.

[Farnsworth]

If you turn an iron metalmind into a steel metalmind, you would probably have an issue mixing the identity-keyed iron with non-keyed carbon.

[8bitBob]

6 hours ago, Figberts said:

If you turn an iron metalmind into a steel metalmind, you would probably have an issue mixing the identity-keyed iron with non-keyed carbon.

How do you figure? In the WoB from the OP, it's confirmed that you can change a metalmind from one viable metal to another.

22 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I know there isn't one, but if you could hack the system and get a compound of both charges, then you might be able to con the system again and store that combo charge.

This is completely baseless conjecture, but I like the idea that you could hack the system to combine attributes. Like, you store Weight and Speed in steel, burn it and it combines to become Momentum, which would increase/decrease your body's force in the direction you're currently moving. Probably not the case, but it's neat to think about.

Edited March 18, 2017 by 8bitBob

[bluedeath33]

I think its important to mention that people probably HAVE thought of it, (As we see Vin try with Sazed metalmind in the original series, due to the relationships between metals its not much of a stretch to think someone though "hey what if i mix this iron with weight into it with carbon and make it into steel and see what happens" due to how interconnected the metals in the metallic arts are i wouldnt say its much of a stretch) its just people have recently discovered metalminds that lack Identity, which was the reason why allomancers couldnt burn another person metalmind, if you removed the Identity portion of the metal that metalmind is available for anyone with a feruchemical ability to use. Or potentially an allomacer who could burn the metal as we're theorizing 

[Genesis]

On 14 March 2017 at 4:24 AM, The One Who Connects said:

 

 

1.  
2. It's not "iron" but it is still holding F-Investiture, so it gives compounded F-Steel
   • Normal Steel is 96% Iron, so these sound unlikely, but that 4 percent Carbon is enough to make it a different metal...

Sorry, total tangent here, but anything with 2%-4% carbon is considered cast iron and not steel, again, apologies, just triggering my OCD

 

Edit: just for clarity - steel generally contains somewhere between 0.05-2.1% carbon content, that's from mild steel through to very high carbon steel

Edited March 22, 2017 by genesisv1

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, genesisv1 said:

Sorry, total tangent here, but anything with 2%-4% carbon is considered cast iron and not steel, again, apologies, just triggering my OCD

Edit: just for clarity - steel generally contains somewhere between 0.05-2.1% carbon content, that's from mild steel through to very high carbon steel

I googled something when I wrote that which gave me "4% carbon" and "iron and carbon" so guess both I and Google goofed. Nevermind, I'm just blind:

"Most steel is made from pig iron (remember: that's an iron alloy containing up to 4 percent carbon) by one of several.."

Thats what I get for skim reading

[Sheridan_rd]

On 3/20/2017 at 2:25 AM, bluedeath33 said:

I think its important to mention that people probably HAVE thought of it, (As we see Vin try with Sazed metalmind in the original series, due to the relationships between metals its not much of a stretch to think someone though "hey what if i mix this iron with weight into it with carbon and make it into steel and see what happens" due to how interconnected the metals in the metallic arts are i wouldnt say its much of a stretch) its just people have recently discovered metalminds that lack Identity, which was the reason why allomancers couldnt burn another person metalmind, if you removed the Identity portion of the metal that metalmind is available for anyone with a feruchemical ability to use. Or potentially an allomacer who could burn the metal as we're theorizing 

A way to clarify this problem would be to negate Identity. 

If Sazed or another Terris Keeper tried this?

Steel minds were hard to fill and Iron minds was much easier. 

(Then again in 1000 year no full Feruchemist thought to fix their gelding with Feruchemy gold healing)

Edited March 23, 2017 by Sheridan_rd