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TWD - Chapter 05 - kaisa 03/13/17 (G) 5539 words


kais

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TWD is dark adult fantasy, and also likely the result of being forced to watch too much Disney recently, thanks to my two year old daughter. This is draft zero. I’m sorry for that. Everything and anything is open to edits, but at this stage LBLs are less useful than overall feelings about tension, character development, text flow, etc. This is also my first experiment with first person, so be warned there. Also be warned that I am delving much deeper into #ownvoices land with the protag than I usually do. 

This chapter is rated ‘G’ for gore in the forest. @Ernei, you could just bow out when the palm tree appears to avoid it. 

My main goal for this chapter was to sort of tie up S’s emotional dissonance with missing the alchemy fair, and to continue to strengthen the character. Initially I wanted S to appear very hesitant in larger things, like making life decisions (hence still living with the mom). Each interaction is supposed to bring S farther into self-confidence and self-actualization, although whether that actually comes across in this chapter I am unsure. Your thoughts are most appreciated.

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TAIG: I’m going to do an analysis on the symbols, for fun. Later. The flow in the last paragraph on page 1 can use some work, I think. I’m getting a clear sense of panic from S though, which I assume that is what you’re going for. Wait. If S never studied alchemy under a master, how does S know the basics? “Or did you lay the to trail following them?” – I’m assuming that you forgot to name the fungus in this sentence. Is this the first time S’s age has been mentioned? Because I don’t recall S being that old, and I wasn’t getting the sense that S was 27. This got long, so I reorganized my thoughts into comments.

Comments:

Symbols: So, salt is a circle with a line to represent the base/acid components, I guess. A triangle pointing down for water, because that’s kind of what a water molecule looks like? Libra for sublimation? I’m drawing a blank here. Libra may be the odd Zodiac out, but I can’t connect the Scales to sublimation.

Royal Alchemist R: I have a negative impression from this guy. R is shown to make highly unreasonable assumption (like assuming fungi cannot be bioluminescent) without evidence and doesn’t believe in poly-specialization which is (insert curse of choice here). When developing new ideas and exploring new fields, people who have a hand in a massive amount of skills (instead of just one) are just as important as pure specialists. And he compromises on principles to avoid thanking someone for his incompetence.  His personality does offset the impression, but not enough.

“What was the purpose of a birthright, if not to give one control over one’s future?” To my understanding, the whole concept of a birthright runs contrary to the concept of ‘control over the future’. Now, if S wants to throw off the birthright, that is understandable, but, generally speaking, ‘birthright’ implies responsibility to a certain goal or cause.

‘Elves are utter nonsense’. Negatives are very difficult to prove, and it’s kind of a downer to see any believer in the scientific method make a negative absolute statement, especially since magic and walking trees have been established. I mean, for all we know, elves could be an alchemically-altered human species in this world.

Walking Palm: Yay, an Ent! Moving trees are always something I like to see, though we get precious little about it save for a brief fight scene, which is resolved using pigments. Pigments, by the way, are cool, but if they get used every fight as a one-shot win, the fights will get boring.

(Harsh) Criticism: I’ve been debating about writing this bit for a while, but it’s probably something you’d rather be told and it reached a peak in this chapter, so I’m going to say it, but please read to the end. At this point, I’d probably close the novel. The problem is that I don't see S as a compelling alchemist protagonist. Compelling protagonist – yes. Alchemist protagonist - not especially. This chapter actually had a very nice bit a development in terms of that, I appreciate a protagonist who has the resolve to stand for beliefs. The problem, again, is in the alchemical aspect. This is kind of important. There are certain tropes and goals that get attached to genre protagonists. Fantasy protagonists need to be on an epic quest of a sort, Sci-Fi protagonists have a problem that needs to be solved. I expect an alchemical protagonist to want to break Laws. Not legal laws, the Laws of Nature themselves, like G = 6.67x10^-11, and the like. S does not have this, in fact S believes the reverse. S is anti-transmutation, and complains that alchemy reeks of magic, which I assume means S is going to work within the rules as much as possible. Now, I have to empathize (because I’d really hate for this to be taken the wrong way) that S is a good protagonist. However, S clearly mentions the desire to become an alchemist multiple times, possess an incredible amount of practical alchemical knowledge, yet has no goals or desires of a classic alchemist, which means that I don’t find S compelling as alchemist protagonist, which I identify S as. The nearest we get is the desire for the universal solvent, but that’s not even so useful on a practical level, certainly nowhere near lead-to-gold or the unlimited youth.

To end on a positive note, (as mentioned previously) I found S's development to be good. S is realizing what S's goals and that S should stand for them.

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- I had a little trouble telling if the first line was in the past or the present. I figured it out eventually, but since he was remembering, I was momentarily confused.

- Some of the back-and-forth between Sorin and Rahad feels a little too long in places, but mostly just because there is too much description in between them. I'd rather their reply and rebuttal be sharper and more quickly delivered.

- Otherwise, I really like the scene - Sorin's suspenseful rescue of Rahad and dissing his offer later. Nice touch. 

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On 3/13/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ernei said:

It's a good characterization moment.

Oh good. I was hoping that would come through well.

On 3/13/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ernei said:

stretch to me.

Good call. Will edit.

On 3/13/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ernei said:

R. comes across a bit incompetent here, since a person who is self-taught (again, I guess) knows more that the master alchemist himself.

I'm still trying to figure out how to walk this line. The concept of microorganisms would be very new during this time period and, much like flat versus round Earth, would be embraced by some and scoffed by others as stupidity. I was hoping for more of an 'old and traditional' versus 'younger and willing to consider new ideas', but maybe I need to build that up more? In this context I was hoping to basically replace 'god' with 'magic' in terms of budding chemistry and biology. 

On 3/13/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ernei said:

I don't think that the reader needs that much beating.

Maybe? Unsure. I'd like to remove about 75% of the direct references and leave the nonbinary stuff as complete subtext, but then I think the book wouldn't have the same punch. Figuring out what different readers need in terms of introduction to concepts is hard. :(

On 3/13/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ernei said:

I wonder how there can be starlight in the fog. Also, I haven't been in jungles, but I've been in the middle of a forest at night, and it's about as dark as in a cave, so I'm not convinced that S. would be able to see the color.

Ah, the low fog that just settles over the ground is what I was trying to describe here. It comes up, sometimes only to your neck or so, so the sky is clear but you can't see your feet. Super creepy. Also surprisingly wet. Re: color- yeah, I need to put a canopy break in there or something so moonlight can filter down. 

On 3/13/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ernei said:

This is becoming more and more confusing.

This would be my draft zero lack of plot. Noting in my manuscript for clean up later. I need to get the end written out here, so I can go back and focus on the political stuff. Sorry for the confusion!

On 3/13/2017 at 11:37 AM, Ernei said:

if someone dies in the gore part, please let me know

No one dies. The master alchemist gets his legs run through by the palm, but he lives. The important part is that at the end, he offers S an apprenticeship for the work with the pigments to save him, and S turns him down cold. 

Thank you for reading!

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On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

how does S know the basics

Ack. So I had an explanation for this in chapter one, but I think maybe it got cut? Let me check. 

Aaaand, yes, it's in the new edits. Whew. The short of it is that wood finishing requires a fair amount of solvent use, so my idea was that alchemy was a small step from that, and S mostly did the coloring and finish work for A.

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

assuming that you forgot to name the fungus

Why yes, yes I did. Heh.

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

Is this the first time S’s age has been mentioned? Because I don’t recall S being that old, and I wasn’t getting the sense that S was 27.

No, it's not, and I think the consensus is that that age is too old for S. BUT I'm asking people to withhold opinions for a few more chapters, because I chose the age for a reason, and want to see if that reason comes out by about chapter eight. If not, I'll drop S's age back to something more like eighteen or twenty.

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

Symbols

I spent a stupid amount of time with these. This book is turning into historical fantasy, which I had not planned at all. Apparently, alchemical symbols changed and became increasingly complex (their current form are chemical symbols) as the centuries went on. I picked some here from a guide book associated with this time period I'm shooting for (mid 1700s). There were some more complex ones, but they were really difficult to describe without saying 'a few jiggly lines in some other jiggly lines that looks sort of like a crawfish'.

And if you thought that was silly, I spent a few hours last night just on period nightshirts. Nightshirts. Where the button is and where the ruffles are matters.

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

to make highly unreasonable assumption

Mycology didn't really start to develop until the early 1700s, and bioluminescence has only recently been really understood. I was trying to present the court alchemist as a stodgy old guy who didn't like new ideas and was reluctant to move to science, but maybe that's just not coming across right. I've gotten more specific with this discussion, and hopefully that will clear it up.

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

And he compromises on principles to avoid thanking someone for his incompetence.  His personality does offset the impression, but not enough.

As long as he doesn't make the chapter unenjoyable, I'm okay with him being unlikable. 

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

‘birthright’ implies responsibility to a certain goal or cause.

That's fair. I've just deleted the line

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

and it’s kind of a downer to see any believer in the scientific method make a negative absolute statement

Yes, but does it build S's character as inflexible towards magic and the supernatural? Because that's really what I'm going for here.

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

but if they get used every fight as a one-shot win, the fights will get boring.

Yes, and I actually need to change this scene, upon further reflection. I think I want the pigments to fail here, and have S have to use something else (like a big rock? I don't know yet). I'd prefer the pigment use be later. Although I do need some pigment use for the ending to work, so maybe just less of a bang? I don't know. I'll play with it.

On 3/13/2017 at 0:30 PM, aeromancer said:

(Harsh) Criticism:

I don't think this was harsh at all! It's very in tune with S, so I think I'm hitting all my writing goals. S is not an alchemist, nor was S ever intended to be one. S wants to be an alchemist, but S is a chemist, and i was hoping to have the protagonist come to terms with that through the course of this book. So the real question is, how do I better lay the groundwork for that, so that people pick up more quickly that this is not a fantasy alchemical journey?

Thank you so much for the thoughtful comments!

 

On 3/14/2017 at 4:16 PM, rdpulfer said:

I'd rather their reply and rebuttal be sharper and more quickly delivered.

For sure. I think this whole chapter needs a trim. That's for the next draft though! Thank you for the feedback, as always!

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I gots more thoughts!

Sort of with @aeromancer on this one. I'm still not very impressed with R. and I feel like if he's the height of alchemical knowledge, it says a lot about S. that she's already passed him. It makes me question S even wanting to join a guild. I have more musings further on.

 

pg 2: "Being a year older at an alchemical fair and vying for apprentice spots amongst children?"
--Is a year going to make the difference between S being a child or not? I thought S was older than that.

pg 2: "I’d been ten the last time I’d come into the queen’s forest"
--So if S was ten then, and it has been a decade since S has seen R, then S is around 22?

pg 2: "Although I knew to stay within two armspans of R, it was hard to maintain the closeness. I’d never been this near another alchemist, "
--Still not really sure what proximity to alchemists achieves.

pg 3: "lay the to trail"
--lay the trail

pg 3: "At twenty-seven"
--Ah...so older. This makes me think even going to the alchemical fair this year would be vying against children. I think I'm on the side of ageing S down a bit. Otherwise this leads a lot more into why hasn't S just started her own guild at this point, as S sure knows a lot more than everyone else.

pg 4: "I’m cautious by nature, especially on unfamiliar terrain.” That was a lie."
--so why is S saying it? I don't really peg S as one to make up something just to talk.

pg 5: Still having a little trouble with R. At this point, we see S as more competent than him, because S knows things we know are true, and R is spouting alchemical nonsense. However, there is magic in this world, so we can't definitely say glowing fungi aren't enchanted... I guess I'm still confused as to what S hopes to gain with an alchemical apprenticeship when S is clearly ahead of the curve. Is S aware of this?

pg 6: "I certainly was nowhere near apprentice level"
--But S is making strange powders with fantastic results, has made a microscope (evidently) and knows more about plants than the master alchemist does. At what point does S reach apprentice level? Why do I see R as less competent? Are there more competent alchemists elsewhere?

pg 6: "Elves were utter nonsense, and the sightings"
--hmm...putting "nonsense" and "sighting" in the same sentence suggests to the reader that they might be real, despite what S thinks.

pg 7: "use a master’s tool. As my hand wrapped around the grip, my smile faded. The machete was out of balance"
--more of the same. At this point I really don't trust R as competent in anything.
--Also, a machete is a master's tool?

pg 8: "perpetually off, as if we existed in worlds ever so slightly out of sync with one another"
--Good to bring this out, but at this point I have little confidence in R at all.

pg 8: "might specialize in an area of alchemy I had no interest in"
--this can explain a lot. If this is the case, I'd bring out this thread more.

pg 9: "I could barely see the blue light he held "
--did we see this before now?

pg 9: "There was a deep-seated reason I didn’t care for magic or transmutation"
--hmmm...want to hear more of this.

After this point, the fight with the palm tree read well. didn't have any more comments to the end of the chapter.
 

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15 hours ago, kaisa said:

I spent a stupid amount of time with these. This book is turning into historical fantasy, which I had not planned at all. Apparently, alchemical symbols changed and became increasingly complex (their current form are chemical symbols) as the centuries went on. I picked some here from a guide book associated with this time period I'm shooting for (mid 1700s). There were some more complex ones, but they were really difficult to describe without saying 'a few jiggly lines in some other jiggly lines that looks sort of like a crawfish'.

Historical fantasy happens to be my second favorite genre, so this sounds awesome. I didn't realize you were putting that much research into this. I now feel an urgent need to look up what 1700 alchemists were thinking to assign Libra to sublimation. Suppose it's going to get assign to my list of Random Research Topics (current research subject: quantum characteristics of human consciousness).

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

Yes, and I actually need to change this scene, upon further reflection. I think I want the pigments to fail here, and have S have to use something else (like a big rock? I don't know yet). I'd prefer the pigment use be later. Although I do need some pigment use for the ending to work, so maybe just less of a bang? I don't know. I'll play with it.

The pigment use here isn't that bad, it's what S has as a weapon. But, yeah, the pigments have to fail majorly at some point.

15 hours ago, kaisa said:

I don't think this was harsh at all! It's very in tune with S, so I think I'm hitting all my writing goals. S is not an alchemist, nor was S ever intended to be one. S wants to be an alchemist, but S is a chemist, and i was hoping to have the protagonist come to terms with that through the course of this book. So the real question is, how do I better lay the groundwork for that, so that people pick up more quickly that this is not a fantasy alchemical journey?

Well, that's the million dollar question I suppose. The reason I got such a strong sense of S being an alchemist protagonist is because S has a massive drive to be a alchemist, but you need that to be the case at the start of the novel for the character growth to occur over the course. I also got the sense from S's extracts, which strike me as a powerful alchemist weapon. Looking at this, my approach would be a) have side characters (possibly M) question what S's real goals are, and cast doubts over S, but not take away S's drive, so the reader gets the sense that S isn't doing what S should be doing, and b ) point out that fungus pigments are a considered to be 'parlor tricks' among the guild, and not 'proper alchemy'. But that's just a few thoughts.

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Ah I'm so happy to be done with my chem lab report. I actually have time to read and write critiques now. :) 

I'm a little late to the party, and I see that people have already talked about a lot of stuff that I would have said, but I'll try to add in a few comments when I can. 

I'm sure that you'll catch this when you're going back to edit, so I won't spend too much time on this, but being draft zero there's naturally a bit of passive voice, a few weak verbs, and an over-reliance on adverbs that could be cleaned up a bit. I wouldn't have mentioned it at all except for the fact that it was the first thing I noticed when jumping into your story, and I wanted to let you know so that you could make absolutely sure that a reader wouldn't get the same impression. :( 

I really like how S and R seem disconnected with each other. I can almost picture an actual barrier that prevents them from understanding each other. You did such a good job that it was a little jarring to hear S explain to me that they lived in worlds out of sync after you already showed that exact concept with dialogue. But I can tell that you focused a lot of attention on making S feel disconnected with R, and to an extent the old "establishment" of alchemy, and it's an important point to establish for developing the motives for S's character. I think the reason that S's self-important attitude works is precisely because he feels that he doesn't fully fit into the established guild system (meaning that he needs another way to validate his interests and work), so I would recommend hitting that point as often as you can... while still being subtle about it. Gosh, being a writer is hard. :( 

Aside from that, I wasn't really able to connect with R as well as I would hoping. It could be because of me being super emotional as a person, but I found it a little strange that he seemed so calm when dealing with the murder tree. I get the impression that this may not have been your intention (like... he does scream and shout; I get that), but that's how it came off to me. I suppose that I expected something about his demeanor to be tense or deadly serious, or something else that would convey fear through a stoic expression. And his transition from a chastising master to dependent seems a little sharp to me. From his words to S after the tree attack, I would expect him to retain some of his confidence and hardness while letting a few cracks in his tone/expression reveal to S the desperation beneath. But the way I write is heavily focused on describing expressions/voices/posture, so I may just be trying to make your work conform with my arbitrary style. Always a possibility where my critiques are concerned. :) 

I think that's it for my comments. I like S' character now, but I think that S will really click if you keep establishing the guilds as a place where S really doesn't fit in. 

(Also, I noticed that S' gender isn't really mentioned, so I've just been referring to S as a "he." Feel free to correct me if I'm missing something. :))

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8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Still not really sure what proximity to alchemists achieves.

That would be forest walking protocol. If it is bothersome I can just cut it. 

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I don't really peg S as one to make up something just to talk.

It needs a follow up line. Added.

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

as to what S hopes to gain with an alchemical apprenticeship when S is clearly ahead of the curve. Is S aware of this?

Grr, I'm really struggling with this. I'm going to try to make it clear, earlier, that they do different kinds of alchemy. I think I might have to start seeding that even in chapter one. Will note for draft 1.

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

At what point does S reach apprentice level? Why do I see R as less competent? Are there more competent alchemists elsewhere?

In the guild system, S doesn't reach apprentice level unless S becomes a formal apprentice. I've been trying to establish free crafters, too, as an option, which S does not want to be. Might need to lay this thicker, too. I wonder if modern sensibilities are working against the reader with R, since R is perfectly correct in all his comments, for the time period. 

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

in the same sentence suggests to the reader that they might be real, despite what S thinks.

Well, then my work here is done!

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

--more of the same. At this point I really don't trust R as competent in anything.
--Also, a machete is a master's tool?

Yeah, I've cleaned this section up to explain. Yes, a machete is a master's tool! Those things are hard to use correctly!

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I'd bring out this thread more.

I've now added it two more times, earlier, in this chapter, and will try to get it into earlier chapters as well

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

did we see this before now?

That would be the bioluminescent fungi. And if you're a giant fungus nerd, there is a decent tell in this action. These fungi only glow when alive. If you pick one, they don't glow, and R is holding a glowing, picked fungus. I like to put in little things for the super nerds.

8 hours ago, Mandamon said:

hmmm...want to hear more of this.

LOL. It's the whole book!

Thank you for reading again, @Mandamon!

 

7 hours ago, aeromancer said:

I didn't realize you were putting that much research into this.

I didn't realize I was, either, until maybe last week. Discovery writing. Ugh.

7 hours ago, aeromancer said:

have side characters (possibly M) question what S's real goals are, and cast doubts over S, but not take away S's drive, so the reader gets the sense that S isn't doing what S should be doing, and b ) point out that fungus pigments are a considered to be 'parlor tricks' among the guild, and not 'proper alchemy'. But that's just a few thoughts.

This actually is a great suggestion, and I have just the character for it! Thank you!

 

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Welcome to the forum, @Wisps of Aether! Great to have you!

2 hours ago, Wisps of Aether said:

You did such a good job that it was a little jarring to hear S explain to me that they lived in worlds out of sync after you already showed that exact concept with dialogue.

I should probably delete that line. I wanted to really drive it home.

2 hours ago, Wisps of Aether said:

I wasn't really able to connect with R as well as I would hoping.

This is a common complaint. Since R will not likely reappear in this story, I'm unsure how much time to devote to 'fixing' him. Emoting more while being impaled by a walking palm, however, I can definitely look at. 

2 hours ago, Wisps of Aether said:

Also, I noticed that S' gender isn't really mentioned, so I've just been referring to S as a "he." Feel free to correct me if I'm missing something. :))

Aheh. Heh. S is nonbinary (which is a large part of the story) and does not use pronouns. If you would like to use them, 'they' or 'xe' would be fine. No 'he' and definitively not 'she'. You did well for noticing that, having missed all the establishing chapters!

Thank you for the very delightful critique!

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Comments? Well, I almost thought I was going to read right through without having any. As it happens…

  • “The fog was like a cream-soup almost, and it sat heavily on my tongue as I breathed, tasting of decaying plant matter.” …I'm only stopping to declare my admiration for this highly descriptive sentence, nice work. Numerous went before it, but this is the one that made me stop (in a good way).

  • “Gods, the tree was walking”- fascinating. So utterly unlike an Ent as to feel completely original (in my experience, anyway).

  • “My aim was terrible " – This account of experimenting mixed with lack of competence in certain skills is packed full of character. Excellent work. Also, the threat, which is very real, but not especially violent, seems very true to nature. I'm sure your experience is much great than mine, although I have some from engineering. Nature is not spiteful, but if you get in its way, it will kill you.

  • “The mud was coppery with his blood” – the vivid description in this story is only one of the aspects that sets it (well) above AWD, imho. “That helped calm me” I mean that is great characterisation. He’s the wounded one, but they are the one in a panic; true to character.

  • “He was shorter than me by several handspans, and had a light frame” – Lol, a criticism at last – I think you need to foreshadow this once or twice, maybe thrice. I have this habit of picturing males in authority as big fellas, either in height or girth or both. It seems here like the situation is being formulated in order to make it possible for them to carry him.

This is an excellent chapter, probably the best yet, imho. It has tension; vivid description of the forest at night; nice verbal sparring between the two characters; disappointment; redemption and character growth, culminating in a lovely subversion of the potential cliché at the end. After having ‘taken a thorn from the lion’s paw’ so to speak, Sor rejects what she went into the chapter, and the whole story, wanting so badly in order to strike out on her own.

The story has a strong sense of the other for me deriving from the ‘alchemical’ details, which really do give the story a unique flavour, imo. There’s a bunch of grammar and style stuff that needs tidying up, but no point in trawling over that here. Nice work; more please.

<R>

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On 13/03/2017 at 7:30 PM, aeromancer said:

Fantasy protagonists need to be on an epic quest of a sort

I could not agree less. Just because that is the way most fantasy is, doesn't mean all fantasy has to be, or should be, that way. Perhaps it's because I am only barely able to consider this story 'fantasy' at all, and I mean that as high praise. I think's it's treading the lines between genres in a very interesting way.

On 13/03/2017 at 7:30 PM, aeromancer said:

yet has no goals or desires of a classic alchemist

So what? Any story is about character first. Character trumps everything. For me, this chapter is about the character realising that they cannot achieve what they want to, the investigation of what they believe alchemy should be, within the redundant strictures of a discipline organised (and therefore defined), by individuals whose image of the profession is hackneyed and reductionist. The worst thing possible for the story (character) would have been them becoming apprenticed to the heid bummer, although probably they would have come to intellectual 'blows' soon enough.

On 16/03/2017 at 6:05 PM, Mandamon said:

it says a lot about S. that she's already passed him

I don't see it this way. He believes in an alchemy that has nothing in it for Sor. It seems to be he can't conceive of what their interpretation of alchemy is or can achieve. His branch of alchemy must produce results, and he must be at the epitome of that area of expertise, with proven mastery, I presume - unless he's just a politician. I don't read it that she's more competent than him, but that she has a better understanding of one area of the discipline.

On 16/03/2017 at 3:16 AM, kaisa said:

but if they get used every fight as a one-shot win, the fights will get boring.

Disagree. In Sor's last fight they were captured and down and only just managed to get away.  I don't think you can call it 'one hit' what they did to the wake Queensguard. Here, they managed to hit a barn door, only just. In no way did they come across as competent at fighting. I think it's clear that they were lucky, and that they know it. Sor used the only thing available, applied wits and got the result. I think that's a good thing. I think it's clear that in no way does Sor think that every fight will be easy, quite the opposite.

On 16/03/2017 at 3:16 AM, kaisa said:

Yes, and I actually need to change this scene, upon further reflection. I think I want the pigments to fail here, and have S have to use something else (like a big rock? I don't know yet). I'd prefer the pigment use be later.

Personally, I think this would be a mistake. I think you need to underline the alchemical aspects of this story at every opportunity in the early parts. Sure, have pigments fail, but I think it's too soon for that. Have them fail next time. Beating the not-Ent with a rock? Seriously? That's going to be a comedy moment, imo. For what it's worth, this reader thinks the scene is great the way it is. You have wonder, you have tension, you have violence (btw wrt Gore - do we now have to flag any personal injury inflicted by another entity as Gore? Blood is red, whether it's a wound or a nosebleed).

On 17/03/2017 at 0:19 AM, Wisps of Aether said:

making S feel disconnected with R, and to an extent the old "establishment" of alchemy

Yes, this right here.

On 17/03/2017 at 0:19 AM, Wisps of Aether said:

he seemed so calm when dealing with the murder tree

He did? I didn't think that. He was scrabbling around in the leaves and I'm sure there's a reference to him becoming increasingly frantic.

@kaisa, have you finished Draft Zero? I would urge your not to change this chapter until you've finished the story?

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17 minutes ago, Ernei said:

I meant it for particularly cruel describtion of death and/or injury, like GoT level, mainly because V was too vast and sometimes overused. But if we overuse this one too, then what's the point? :/

That's what I thought :) So, how did you feel about the violence in K's submission? I sense from your answer that you would not have flagged this as gore, maybe?

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11 hours ago, Robinski said:
On 3/16/2017 at 5:19 PM, Wisps of Aether said:

he seemed so calm when dealing with the murder tree

He did? I didn't think that. He was scrabbling around in the leaves and I'm sure there's a reference to him becoming increasingly frantic.

Yeah, I wasn't really happy with my ability to understand and communicate why that scene didn't quite click for me. :( You're right, of course. He does scream and scramble around. But for me, something still wasn't there. Maybe I could take another crack at it. Hopefully I do a better job of explaining it this time @kaisa. :) 

I focus heavily (both in writing and reading) on dialogue. I think that R didn't quite work for me in that scene because while he was scrambling around, his dialogue sounded even and controlled. It felt almost like I was dealing with two different characters. He was emoting and he was talking, but it didn't feel to me like his emotion was coming through while he was talking. I'm guessing that you wanted R to be in control of himself even as he is frantic, but in his words I didn't feel like there was a whole lot challenging his self-control. As someone who writes characters that emote basically any time they ever talk (it can be a problem sometimes haha), I'm sure I'm on the extreme end of the spectrum and there may be absolutely nothing wrong with the scene. But I hope that you consider my opinion when you go through and decide that for yourself. :) 

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14 hours ago, Robinski said:

have you finished Draft Zero? I would urge your not to change this chapter until you've finished the story

I have not! I have all the component parts now, but I'm still stringing them together and trying to arc characters better. I've left a note for myself on this point, and its something I'll think about again in the first rewrite. 

14 hours ago, Robinski said:

btw wrt Gore - do we now have to flag any personal injury inflicted by another entity as Gore? Blood is red, whether it's a wound or a nosebleed)

The issue is that I didn't think chapter one was gory at all, so I'm shooting in the dark with the 'G' label. I figured, I get descriptive with how the pigments work, so I'd best 'G' rate every use of them on a human. I'd rather over rate than under rate.

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15 hours ago, Robinski said:

So utterly unlike an Ent

I don't actually know what an Ent is, so I shall take this as a compliment!

15 hours ago, Robinski said:

Nature is not spiteful, but if you get in its way, it will kill you.

This pretty much sums up every trip to the jungle, ever. 

15 hours ago, Robinski said:

foreshadow this once or twice, maybe thrice.

On it

15 hours ago, Robinski said:

she went into the chapter, and the whole story, wanting so badly in order to strike out on her own.

Thank you for the praise! I'm glad the chapter went well! (just a quick note on the pronouns though...)

14 hours ago, Robinski said:

Just because that is the way most fantasy is, doesn't mean all fantasy has to be,

True. I don't generally like epic fantasy. I like to read dark fantasy almost exclusively. However I will say that in my mind, S is on an epic quest, even if S doesn't actually realize it as such. It's a quest to find and define a sense of self, and I think that is a really neat thing to explore through parallels of alchemy and gender identity.

14 hours ago, Robinski said:

I don't read it that she's more competent than him, but that she has a better understanding of one area of the discipline.

(ack, see, @Mandamon is doing it too. No female pronouns, please). But yes, this is what I was hoping for. That alchemy has three distinct branches (maybe more), and R and S aren't in the same one. And in fact that R's faction holds the one S is in in pretty low esteem. I've tried to clear it up some more.

Thank you, @Robinski, for the glowing review! I am thusly motivated to continue on!

2 hours ago, Wisps of Aether said:

But I hope that you consider my opinion when you go through and decide that for yourself. :) 

I've tried to tweak it a bit. I do want R to be verbally in control, because screaming or yelling would only attract the palm. R needs to show some strong competency in this chapter outside of S's area, and this was supposed to be it. Hopefully the edits clarify. Thanks for having another read through @Wisps of Aether!

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8 hours ago, kaisa said:

The issue is that I didn't think chapter one was gory at all, so I'm shooting in the dark with the 'G' label. I figured, I get descriptive with how the pigments work, so I'd best 'G' rate every use of them on a human. I'd rather over rate than under rate.

Hmm, yeah, the problem becomes that the 'G' rating gets diluted and it's application becomes meaningless; it's a tricky one for sure.

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8 hours ago, kaisa said:

just a quick note on the pronouns though...

Oh, frell - I go through my critique posts and check for pronouns, but these have slipped through - apologies. As you can see, I still type them in the first instance sometimes - those 50 years of conditioning continue to try and hang on :-/

Err, the second pronoun instance was me too..., not @Mandamon  :(

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14 hours ago, Robinski said:

You mean..., you haven't read..., Lord of the..., Rings?

I tried. I really did! I just really hate reading epic fantasy. I can't even make it through The Way of Kings, and I'm a Sanderson fan (well, at least in terms of the Mistborn books). So I made it maybe two chapters into LoTR, and about the same amount into The Way of Kings. 

14 hours ago, Robinski said:

he second pronoun instance was me too

Yes, but quoting @Mandamon, who also had a pronoun slip in his. I just wanted to point them out. No offense taken certainly. It's hard for me too, because I use female pronouns despite being nonbinary, and they slip pretty easily into S's narrative. We're all learning!

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18 hours ago, kaisa said:

So I made it maybe two chapters into LoTR, and about the same amount into The Way of Kings.

*gasp*

18 hours ago, kaisa said:

Yes, but quoting Mandamon, who also had a pronoun slip in his.

Yeah, I struggle with this every time. I try to go back through what I wrote to make sure I didn't miss anything. I think the title of the story sets a precedent that's hard to shake off, despite the content.

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7 minutes ago, Mandamon said:

I try to go back through what I wrote to make sure I didn't miss anything

Yah - me too!! Clearly, I'm going to have to start doing a search-and-replace each time before I paste my comments in from my Word file...:unsure:

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On 3/21/2017 at 10:06 AM, Mandamon said:

I think the title of the story sets a precedent that's hard to shake off, despite the content.

I agree. That's why I'm waffling on the title. On the one hand, I love it, because it sets the stage for S and how everyone perceives this person in this book. On the other hand, I'm just setting S up for female pronouns, but then again, that's sort of the point so... ARGH!

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