20170306 - EotFP - JBM Ch2

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

 

Hello,

 

Here's chapter 2 of Jet Black Medium (which is a rewrite of what used to be chapter 1).

It's rather different from its previous incarnation (someday I'm going to get the hang of revising something without rewriting the whole thing):

I cut the navel-gazing at the top, though that bit is coming back in a future chapter; I got rid of the disastrous wheelbarrow scene; and I once again toned down J.'s flirting by several notches, he might actually seem like a person now.

 

I was reading The Name of the Rose while writing part of this and I might have been channeling some Eco in there, so sorry about that. (I should do a post in the Reading like writers topic about it, but I'm still sorting out how I feel about the whole experience)

 

Summary:

Prologue: In which a man visits a priestess and has her curse someone.
Chapter 1: In which our hero P. visits a crime-scene, has an argument with his boss, and gets a shave.
Chapter 2: In which our heroine L. arrives, is flirted with by her escort, and eats some festival food.
(Chapter 3: In which our hero meets our heroine, forms an opinion, and hatches a nefarious plot petty scheme.)

 

Enjoy reading,

 

 

 

Eagle.

 

[Mandamon]

I still can't get on board with J. I think the problem is not that he's a jerk (which he is) but that L keeps considering him as a potential when she's 1) not in the market and 2) gives no reaction to his creeper passes. The few describing words we get (e.g. "blasted") makes me think she doesn't like him at all.
If we are in L's head stronger and see what her immediate reaction to these passes are, and why she thinks they're acceptable, then this will make a lot more sense. People like J do attract others, but we need to know why L's attracted to him, past that he has shiny teeth. Is she just a very shallow person? In that case, it's going to be hard to make her sympathetic.

Pg 1: Lots of waiting around and not moving on the first page, lots of description bogging things down. I really like the shelltown, but I'm not going to remember all of this.

Pg 2: I'm more interested in why all the clerks are tired than dealing with L's luggage. Still not a lot happening to draw me in yet.

Pg 2: "the Plan"
--this sounds very official. Why is it capitalized?

pg 2: "L surveyed the equipment issued to the local lictors."
--This really signals "lots of description coming" which makes me less likely to pay attention to it. I think much of the next paragraph could be inserted in chunks elsewhere, or in dialogue.

pg 3: "berate the lictor for neglecting his duties."
--This seems...unwise.

pg 4: Celatian/Celsior
--I'm going to confuse these.

pg 4: “Implying there are things you need to know right now? About me for example?”
....no? Why would he think that? At least L asks the same question. 

pg 4: “Well, I think I’m an interesting subject; and most people tend to agree.”
--gag.

pg 5: "You really don’t want to know anything about me?”
--Really? No.

pg 5: "Merciful Dhé, and I thought his smile was nice."
--yeah, he may be pretty, but he's obviously a complete douchebag. I would think that would temper L's reaction.

pg 5: I don't know what an Atramancer, so aside from demonstrating he's smart, this paragraph doesn't add a lot.

pg 6: "The blasted man then proceeded to grab L about the waist and dragged her into the clamouring mob. "
--What? No...this is where she knees him in the groin and finds her own way to the prefecture.

Pg 6: L does not have a reasonable reaction to this jerk. I think this comes out more because you don't give any reaction from her, just state his ridiculous actions then have Laurea think how dreamy his smile is. Doesn't she feel angry at the treatment? Or is there a reason why she accepts this without comment?

pg 7: And then they have a nice lunch and her sandal snaps. I want some sort of emotional response from L. I'm getting nothing except that she wants to get to the prefecture, in which case she shouldn't be stopping for lunch.

pg 8: "fall of"
--off

Pg 8: "He laughed again—he seemed to do that with quite some regularity. Praise the Dhé for that. "
--Why?

Pg 9: "he said with another dazzling smile. Unfair!"
--Nope. Don't believe it.

Pg 9: "The Plan didn’t allow for romance"
--So I gather The Plan is how she think she's going to rise in the prefecture? This actually tells me more about the character than the rest of this chapter, and it also says if she's that devoted to her prospects, I wouldn't think she'd be entertaining this jerk.

Pg 9: "He said he likes a challenge, whispered an unexpected side of her, this might actually improve your chances."
--I still don't understand why she actually considering him.
 

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Okay, I need to start reading some Jane Austen, because apparently I don't get this romance shtick at all.

[kais]

Overall

The interaction between Laurea and Janus still doesn't ring true for me. He's still a little bit of a creeper, and Laurea's character isn't firm enough in my mind to real get a read on her at all. 

4 hours ago, Mandamon said:

pg 6: "The blasted man then proceeded to grab L about the waist and dragged her into the clamouring mob. "
--What? No...this is where she knees him in the groin and finds her own way to the prefecture.

I agree completely. I think I'm on the same page as @Mandamon on this (no surprise). The interplay is better than before, if I recall, but still off. 

As I go

- the odour composed of aging fish, fresh tar and not-quite-dry seaweed +1 for appropriate use of coal tar creosote, although if this is supposed to be an advanced civilization and not a primitive one, they'd likely have much better preservatives

- top of page three, I'm getting weary of scenery

- Page three: Laurea is kind of book one Hermione Granger right now, without the endearments

- she just takes Celatain's words at face value? Do they not have crime in this world?

- page four: this is starting to ring more like The Steerswoman

- page five: I remain concerned about Celatain (Janus??) grabbing Laurea and dragging her through the crowd. If you were trying for romance prior, it was starting up, but this just kills any chance, in my mind. He could have offered a charming hand for her to accept--that would have worked. But just hauling? Nope. 

- page six: yeah, if Laurea is going to be okay with Janus doing this, we need some thought earlier about how much she likes his arms or something, and have him clearly catching on to that

- page seven: I read 'goldfruit' as 'godfruit' and had a moment of uncertainty about whose story I was reading ( @Mandamon )

- page eight: with all Laurea's doe-eyes, I'm surprised she reacts to the dinner invitation with a why. I would think she would squeal or something

- He enjoys a challenge? She's fawning all over him. Not a challenge

- the end falls flat for me. She turns him down, but if she was concerned about the romance thing, why was she so okay with all his flirting earlier?

[kais]

7 minutes ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

Okay, I need to start reading some Jane Austen, because apparently I don't get this romance shtick at all.

I think you're just missing the consent part. The grabbing scene could be okay, if there was more broadcasting before hand, and we clearly saw some nonverbal communication from L that she wants physical touch from J, and that J sees that and takes the opportunity. But just grabbing a woman and hauling her into a crowd, no matter how dashing your smile is, is assault if there is no consent.

[rdpulfer]

- I like the image of Laurea bonding down the gangway from the ship. I've felt that before!

- And I really like her pulling rank on the Lictor. It's a good character-building moment.

- And I also like her interaction with Celeatian.

- A strong chapter. One minor note - I'd rather Laurera outright refuse Celetaian's dinner offer instead of saying she'd think about it. It could add the tension between the characters, but those are just my two cents. 

[Mandamon]

6 hours ago, kaisa said:

page seven: I read 'goldfruit' as 'godfruit' and had a moment of uncertainty about whose story I was reading

Heh-I had that same moment myself.

6 hours ago, kaisa said:

I think you're just missing the consent part.

Agree. Consent will also tie in with giving some more reason behind L's reactions.

[Robinski]

Comments.

• The first paragraph is a killer. There are really long sentences and it’s 90% descriptive – I would seriously consider chopping a lot of that detail. As a reader, I want character first, setting second.

• “passengers to unboard” – ‘disembark’, I would suggest, maybe ‘debark’, although I never liked that word, sounds like something you do to a tree.

• “Oh. You know him then?” – The discussion about Snec works so much better when I’ve met him already.

• “and I thought his smile was nice” – this is a really nothing word. I reckon in any situation one might use ‘nice’ there are at least ten other words that are better, or convey some of emotion – for me, nice does next to nothing.

• “but I’d rather be a galley-slave than a priest,” he added with a hint of venom” – this is the first sentence where I really felt much insight into or engagement with one of the characters, because of the revelation of something that might otherwise have been hidden.

• Somehow, I feel like this version is wordier than the last. There’s a lot to be said for compact and efficient narrative. Also, I think part of the wordiness is down to there being a fair bit of telling, explaining things that the reader would be more satisfied (I think) in working out for themselves. For example, “getting two meant Cel was very, very smart indeed.” Don’t tell the reader the answer, let them find it, in this case, you could say “getting two was unheard of.” I think using this type of approach, you get more reader investment for fewer words – double win.

• “shattered parts of a confused rainbow” – nice impression.

• “Janus” – huh? Was this his name before? I don’t remember, but it’s easier to handle as a reader than Cela. “Janus Celatian” – oh, I see, must have missed a bit.

• Cela’s sudden need to east is strange. I don’t have a handle on him yet, but I feel like he’s near the edge of being annoying – not sure on which side.

• I really like how one hand does one thing, and the other another – nice touch. This feels like that Dan Wells thing – explain one small detail and get reader buy-in to the big things.

• “he said with another dazzling smile” – Yeah, I feel like he’s turned up too loud for my taste in characters, and her reaction to him feels too easy, like he’s already ‘won’.

• “this might actually improve your chances” – of what? Don’t follow.

I think I’ve covered it in my comments. I think this chapter still has edits to go to streamline it and make it more digestible. Some good stuff though, just weighed down by too many words, I think.

<R>

[industrialistDragon]

Thoughts as I go... 

 

First page is interesting, but... a little slow. I'm keeping going more to see if it goes anywhere than because I'm invested in L's antsy-ness. I feel like I SHOULD be caught up in it, but somehow that the narrative is.. patronizing? her. Like tired adults do with kids who get excited about things the adults consider mundane.  

 

Nah, L. that customs clerk was a jerk tired or not. 

 

On pg3 by the time C shows up I no longer feel like I'm paused waiting to get into the story, but that's mostly because I want to punch C in his smarmy smiling face. Also, wow, I'd pegged L as some kind of young adult or even child based on the first 2 pages, not police detective! 

 

Ugh, C. Sleazy, unctuous, creeperriffic. 

 

Lordy, L. so insecure! Oily McNarcissism-Man's opinions ain't worth the time it takes to listen to them! Woman up girlfriend! (Seriously, though, is she so new a quaestor that she's really uncertain/needy enough to take what this mook says so seriously?)

 

okay, yeah, agree. if she's being blown over by hormones "nice" is a bland understatement. 

 

Odious-personality-man only starts being decent when he's talking about getting in to uni, and even then, he's got a large deficit to make up for already before I would actually enjoy reading about him. 

 

...And, nope. Interesting uni story does NOT make up for bodily manhandling another human person like a sack of grain.  sleazy swinish boor. 

 

How is she not incensed by that treatment? That's how you treat recalcitrant children or pets, not superior officers. Hormones or no, that's an attack on her authority and perceived power. As a (presumably) tiny woman who's new and insecure in her position, how in all the world can she let that stand? How many people saw her dragged around by this chauvinistic meathead? She's going to be a citywide laughingstock before she's even seen her new office. 

 

geez, and he just admitted to using his rank to get him perks from the citizenry? wow. Are there handcuffs in this world? Grinny McDunderhead should be wearing them.

 

...And, i'm completely thrown out of the story at this point. L just accepting that getting hauled around bodily by smiling chunks of arrogant manmeat is just... i'm too angry.  I don't care that's he's smiling more and making her all aflutter. I don't care that he has nifty fix-and-break magic (and it does sound interesting, but I just can't even right now). 

 

He clearly doesn't even think she's as human as he is, between the oozing come-ons, the practiced 80-watt smile (oh and you know he practices it. probably puts fantasyland-petroleum jelly on his teeth so he smiles better), the assumption that she (probably all women) thinks he's hot, and then the your-no-means-yes "i like a challenge" line.  And L just accepts it! eats it up! L, honey. I like you, but you're in serious danger here. You're supposed to be a detective, find a clue! 

 

If your intent is for C to be a likable character, for me at least, he has a long way to go. sorry, man.

 

fwiw, I've been rewatching a lot of NCIS recently, and C reminds me a bit of Tony in that. You might sit through a couple eps and see how they manage to soften his slimeball tendencies (mind you, IMO, I don't feel like they succeed all that much, but he's a popular character a lot of people like so they're doing SOMEthing right. Also, I'd take Tony DiNozzo over C any day of the week at the moment)

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

So, reading between the lines here *cough cough*, I'm catching some *ahem* subtle hints that people don't like Janus and how he interacts with women.
(Nice catch by @industrialistDragon, btw, Tony from NCIS is basically what I'm shooting for, apart from the phys.ed. major in college.)
I'll get my hands on some reading material that might give me a better foundation on this (I already mentioned Jane Austen) and try to fix it, but first I really need to move on to the next chapter or risk going nuts.

Individual replies below, but I'm not going to comment on your feedback about the LC/JC interaction in the interest (as stated above) of my continued sanity, rest assured though that your thoughts on the matter are appreciated and are duly being taken into consideration.

Mandamon

Spoiler

On 3/6/2017 at 4:54 PM, Mandamon said:

Pg 1: Lots of waiting around and not moving on the first page, lots of description bogging things down. I really like the shelltown, but I'm not going to remember all of this.
Okay

Pg 2: I'm more interested in why all the clerks are tired than dealing with L's luggage. Still not a lot happening to draw me in yet.
Okay

Pg 2: "the Plan"
--this sounds very official. Why is it capitalized?
Because that's how Laurea thinks about it.

pg 2: "L surveyed the equipment issued to the local lictors."
--This really signals "lots of description coming" which makes me less likely to pay attention to it. I think much of the next paragraph could be inserted in chunks elsewhere, or in dialogue.
Good tip, though I don't see it coming up in conversation.

pg 3: "berate the lictor for neglecting his duties."
--This seems...unwise.
Uhm, why?

pg 4: Celatian/Celsior
--I'm going to confuse these.
Okay, I'll either change Celatian or consistently have people refer to him by his first name.

pg 7: And then they have a nice lunch and her sandal snaps. I want some sort of emotional response from L. I'm getting nothing except that she wants to get to the prefecture, in which case she shouldn't be stopping for lunch.

pg 8: "fall of"
--off
Thanks, fixed it.

Pg 9: "The Plan didn’t allow for romance"
--So I gather The Plan is how she think she's going to rise in the prefecture? This actually tells me more about the character than the rest of this chapter, and it also says if she's that devoted to her prospects, I wouldn't think she'd be entertaining this jerk.
Rise in society in general, but the prefecture first, yes.

 

kaisa

Spoiler

On 3/6/2017 at 9:37 PM, kaisa said:

Overall

The interaction between Laurea and Janus still doesn't ring true for me. He's still a little bit of a creeper, and Laurea's character isn't firm enough in my mind to real get a read on her at all. 
I'll try to firm up LC. Do some character building exercises, probably.

As I go

- the odour composed of aging fish, fresh tar and not-quite-dry seaweed +1 for appropriate use of coal tar creosote, although if this is supposed to be an advanced civilization and not a primitive one, they'd likely have much better preservatives
Thanks for the +1, but I'm not sure I can accept it. I meant regular tar for caulking hulls, not creosote. 
The civilisation is somewhat advanced in a few ways, but mostly relatively primitive (Roman Republic), so I think it tracks.

- top of page three, I'm getting weary of scenery
Sorry about that, I'll try to fix.

- Page three: Laurea is kind of book one Hermione Granger right now, without the endearments
I see your point.

- she just takes Celatain's words at face value? Do they not have crime in this world?
Let's see, she's talking to a guy in a cop's uniform (well, lictor, but you get the idea), talking to other guys in uniform, at a place where you'd expect to see cops posted. I don't see a huge risk factor here.

- page four: this is starting to ring more like The Steerswoman
I'm not familiar with that book, so I don't know what you mean by that.

- page seven: I read 'goldfruit' as 'godfruit' and had a moment of uncertainty about whose story I was reading ( @Mandamon )
Considering the other party, that's actually flattering.

 

rdpulfer

Spoiler

On 3/7/2017 at 1:50 AM, rdpulfer said:

- I like the image of Laurea bonding down the gangway from the ship. I've felt that before!
Thanks

- And I really like her pulling rank on the Lictor. It's a good character-building moment.
yay!

- And I also like her interaction with Celeatian.
Sadly, you're in the minority there. But it means it's not a total loss, so thanks.

- A strong chapter. One minor note - I'd rather Laurera outright refuse Celetaian's dinner offer instead of saying she'd think about it. It could add the tension between the characters, but those are just my two cents. 
Okay, I'll keep that in mind.

 

Robinski

Spoiler

On 3/7/2017 at 9:27 AM, Robinski said:

Comments.

• The first paragraph is a killer. There are really long sentences and it’s 90% descriptive – I would seriously consider chopping a lot of that detail. As a reader, I want character first, setting second.

  Okay.

• “passengers to unboard” – ‘disembark’, I would suggest, maybe ‘debark’, although I never liked that word, sounds like something you do to a tree.

  Okay.

• “Oh. You know him then?” – The discussion about Snec works so much better when I’ve met him already.

  Thanks.

• “and I thought his smile was nice” – this is a really nothing word. I reckon in any situation one might use ‘nice’ there are at least ten other words that are better, or convey some of emotion – for me, nice does next to nothing.

  I'll break out a thesaurus.

• “but I’d rather be a galley-slave than a priest,” he added with a hint of venom” – this is the first sentence where I really felt much insight into or engagement with one of the characters, because of the revelation of something that might otherwise have been hidden.

  Thanks... I think.

• Somehow, I feel like this version is wordier than the last. There’s a lot to be said for compact and efficient narrative. Also, I think part of the wordiness is down to there being a fair bit of telling, explaining things that the reader would be more satisfied (I think) in working out for themselves. For example, “getting two meant Cel was very, very smart indeed.” Don’t tell the reader the answer, let them find it, in this case, you could say “getting two was unheard of.” I think using this type of approach, you get more reader investment for fewer words – double win.

  The wordiness is the Eco-channeling I was talking about, hoping to fix that in edits. The telly-ness is my fault, which I hope to fix too.

• “shattered parts of a confused rainbow” – nice impression.

  I do manage to turn a decent phrase now and again.

• “Janus” – huh? Was this his name before? I don’t remember, but it’s easier to handle as a reader than Cela. “Janus Celatian” – oh, I see, must have missed a bit.

  I switched it up there to show LC getting more familiar with him. Then went back for same reason (but in the other direction).

• Cela’s sudden need to east is strange. I don’t have a handle on him yet, but I feel like he’s near the edge of being annoying – not sure on which side.

  "east"? 
  edit: I just realized you mean "eat" (or possibly feast). And LC's actually the one who's hungry, so I thought I was writing JC as considerate right there.

• I really like how one hand does one thing, and the other another – nice touch. This feels like that Dan Wells thing – explain one small detail and get reader buy-in to the big things.

  Thanks, I'm rather pleased with my magic systems. Just hope I can do them justice.

• “this might actually improve your chances” – of what? Don’t follow.

  Chances with JC

I think I’ve covered it in my comments. I think this chapter still has edits to go to streamline it and make it more digestible. Some good stuff though, just weighed down by too many words, I think.

Thanks!

<R>

 

industrialistDragon

Spoiler

On 3/8/2017 at 2:32 AM, industrialistDragon said:

Thoughts as I go... 

 

First page is interesting, but... a little slow. I'm keeping going more to see if it goes anywhere than because I'm invested in L's antsy-ness. I feel like I SHOULD be caught up in it, but somehow that the narrative is.. patronizing? her. Like tired adults do with kids who get excited about things the adults consider mundane.  
I can't really see what's patronizing here (I'm probably too close to it) but I will try to speed things up a bit.

Nah, L. that customs clerk was a jerk tired or not. 
Oh, I agree (and so does LC), she regrets coming to a conclusion before all the facts were in, and she considers that unprofessional. I'll change it, though.

 

(Seriously, though, is she so new a quaestor that she's really uncertain/needy enough to take what this mook says so seriously?)
Basically her first day is next monday, so pretty new, yes. But I'll replace the disappointment with annoyance, much more in character anyway.

 

geez, and he just admitted to using his rank to get him perks from the citizenry? wow. Are there handcuffs in this world? Grinny McDunderhead should be wearing them.

For cutting in line? As indicated by LC paying him back, he payed for the food (though not all lictors would have). The only advantage JC got was that, even when mobbing food stalls, few people are going to try shoving the guy in uniform. Even if the food had been "unofficial taxation", I'm not portraying modern-day law enforcement ethics here. 

 

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone!

Edited March 9, 2017 by Eagle of the Forest Path
facepalm realization

[Mandamon]

1 hour ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

pg 3: "berate the lictor for neglecting his duties."
--This seems...unwise.
Uhm, why?

I think because we don't really know what L's job is at that point. To me, a person on the street is not going to go up to a cop and start telling him to do his job. Once we learn she's going to be basically a detective, it makes more sense.

[industrialistDragon]

2 hours ago, Eagle of the Forest Path said:

I'm not portraying modern-day law enforcement ethics here. 

fair enough!   That's minor honestly (And probably something Tony's done at some point in NCIS)

I've been tossing this around in my head, trying to take apart why I had such a strong reaction to this chapter.

Thing 1 is, as Kaisa pointed out, L's lack of reactions, positive or negative and lack of consent. If she's into what C's doing, she should be providing him some kind of reinforcing feedback -- flirting, banter, smiles, playful smack to an arm or other "safe" area etc. (note: blushes, nervous laughter, hiding the eyes, and stammering alone don't count because those can also be negative feedback) in addition to her internal dialogue for the readers. C should be reacting to those reinforcing gestures or words, be they positive or negative. Think of Tony's interactions with Ziva and Kate -- he will tease, even deliberately aggravate them, but he doesn't ignore them and can usually tell when they're being serious and reacts accordingly. 

 

Thing 2 is that marketplace scene. It's the one thing that's just beyond the pale. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's meant to showcase C's physical prowess and be very flirty/romantic/gallant, yes? If so, there are a number of ways to rejigger it accomplish its goals without sending up everyone's warning flags. As examples:

1. he could ASK her prior to scooping her up. As kaisa said, consent is IMPORTANT. If he ignores her refusal (and i don't know how many adults would agree to being carried when uninjured), she needs to react angrily, EVEN IF she is also reacting internally to being close to him (being angry and turned on and being angry because you're turned on are completely valid emotions to have in this scenario!).  Also, he shouldn't carry her under his arm/over his shoulder. it's both unromantic and demeaning. Far more romantic to be carried in his arms next to his chest, or (more silly) piggyback.
2. He could take her hand/arm. More romantic would be by hand or with some overly-courtly flourishes such as bowing or offering his elbow as if at a ball or dance. Again, if she says no, and he ignores her, she needs to react accordingly. 
3. He could let her follow him. "Put your hands around my belt" is both super flirty, and a decent way to hang on to another person while that other person is using their arms. Bonus, she gets an unobstructed view of his backside and of him using his physical strength to clear the way
4. He could shout "Make way! Make way!"  before shoving people aside to clear her a path (with no touching) like she was an empress and embarrass the snot out of her.  
5. He could use some crazy alternate route only a townie would know. Allows for more banter/dialogue, showing how C interacts with other people, and has opportunities for tight spaces and enforced close-quarters (brushing up against shoulders/arms, handing her over a puddle/assisting her over a wall, watching him climb a ladder/stairs, etc.)

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

2 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I think because we don't really know what L's job is at that point. To me, a person on the street is not going to go up to a cop and start telling him to do his job. Once we learn she's going to be basically a detective, it makes more sense.

Aaah! It's WRS then, in the previous chapter another quaestor (or detective IRL) gets assigned as her mentor. Thanks for clarifying.

@industrialistDragon Thanks! Things 1 and 2 will be incredibly useful once I feel ready to tackle this chapter again. It should also help for all the other JC/LC interactions.

... and she wasn't actually getting carried. More like dragged along with an arm around her waist, must have described it poorly. (Carrying would make it more difficult to get through a crowd, I'd think.)