LiquidBlue

Theory: Allomancers can compound feruchemical charges

85 posts in this topic

Summed it all up very well.

I'll just imagine that ended with a mic drop. 

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It is really a nice research of different WoBs and quotes from the books, much more supporting than the original two WoBs. Your theory is definitely plausible, but to call the alternative flimsy is a bit too confident on your side. You do extend what we have seen so far, so you add something unconfirmed, strictly speaking.

The thing bothering me is that in your theory Identity is just a lock to someone's feruchemical charges. An unkeyed charge in a metalmind is treated the same as a charge keyed to the ferring/twinborn. Nothing so far contradicts this. It does make the spiritual attribute Identity kind of cheap, though. The " Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." also would have to be discarded.

I don't want to create another wall of text to address every point you wrote. Just one thing:

17 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Note, this is exactly the same steps as allomancy. At no point is it stated that the twinborn taps the metalmind during this process. Rather, the Investiture just needs to interact with each other to alter how the magic is shaped.

17 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Allomancer Investiture is filtered through the metamind. Because there is no Identity interference preventing them from mixing, the feruchemical Investiture present in the metalmind also shapes the effect of the magic.

1. ) You propose that Identity blocks Investitures from mixing.
2.) I propose that Identity enables different types of Investitures to interfere with each other: Investitures can only interfere if they fit to the same sDNA.

We only know so far that Investiture with another Identity cannot be accessed by a Feruchemist (supporting 1, but not contradicting 2) and we only have seen Compounding with Identity matches (supporting 2, but not contradicting 1), so both propositions are the same kind of stretch, both not really far stretches.

Your proposition would mean that an unkeyed metalmind could be compounded by a misting, my proposition would mean that this would not work, since the Identity neccessary for interference would be missing in an unkeyed metalmind. Access by another Fering would work, since there is no mixing of Investitures involved.

Mixing/Interference of Investitures is to be understood as an interaction of different powers, here Allomancy and Feruchemy. In the Ars Arcanum from BoM it is hinted that the mixing of different types of Investiture has curious effects.

Quote

The effects here are more subtle that they are when mixing Surges in Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers ... and an effect. This demands further study.

- Ars Arcanum, BoM

 

 

Edited by Pattern
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I will try to find the WoB and edit, but that Ars  Arcanum quote is directly speaking about resonance. As it says it's most apparent on Roshar because of the way powers are paired for orders. 

It's speaking about the way two powers interact within an individual to create some extra effect. I don't believe it applies to what you are trying to use it for. 

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31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's speaking about the way two powers interact within an individual to create some extra effect. I don't believe it applies to what you are trying to use it for. 

Exactly. Two types of Investiture within an individual (having an Identity) lead to resonances. Compounding is the kind of resonance happening for a X-X Twinborn (X denoting any allomantic/feruchemical metal). Twinborn with two different metals have more subtle resonances.

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I'm going to agree to disagree. Compounding was available to TLR and Brandon has said that resonances stop with to many powers. A straightforward hack of one system by another doesn't seem to fit with what we've seen of resonances, and compounding is inherently available to a fullborn despite "number of powers" 

Edited by Calderis
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First off, thanks for the reputation and praise for my last post everyone. I'm not gonna lie, I spent almost four hours on it, so I'm glad to see it was well received.

Alright, I'll stop patting myself on the back now. Back to arguing with strangers.

9 hours ago, Pattern said:

It is really a nice research of different WoBs and quotes from the books, much more supporting than the original two WoBs. Your theory is definitely plausible, but to call the alternative flimsy is a bit too confident on your side. You do extend what we have seen so far, so you add something unconfirmed, strictly speaking.

Yes, strictly speaking, I extrapolate and theorize based on our understanding, so you could say this, but to suggest I "add something unconfirmed" in the same way is a false equivalence. Note, I was specifically referring to the theory that feruchemy is required to compound and that Identity somehow forms a Spiritual connection to your own metalminds, which is what allows you to compound without feruchemy, yet this same theorized connection is not enough to grant former ferrings access to their metalminds. This "adds something unconfirmed" in the sense that it literally adds a theorized connection and ability to Identity that has not been presented to us thus far. There is a difference.

I feel confident that I have convincingly argued why I feel this theory is less likely, but if this rebuttal is because I used the word flimsy and that feels derogatory, then I apologize. That was not my intention, but rather to say that it is less substantiated due to the fact that it invents a solution and has potential holes.

9 hours ago, Pattern said:

The thing bothering me is that in your theory Identity is just a lock to someone's feruchemical charges. An unkeyed charge in a metalmind is treated the same as a charge keyed to the ferring/twinborn. Nothing so far contradicts this. It does make the spiritual attribute Identity kind of cheap, though. 

This is just opinion, but I don't think of Identity as special in the Cosmere, though characters think stuff like this is, and this is reflected in my theories. We see this with Wax thinking of course no one can tap his metalminds because they're his. This is revealed to simply be a function of Identity though and not that big a deal. Makes me wonder about the mechanics of Breath and Identity: could an Awakener without Identity retrieve another Awakener's Breath? An interesting thought.

9 hours ago, Pattern said:

The " Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." also would have to be discarded.

It's not being discarded, Spiritual connection is just assumed to be Identity here as it matches the description of Identity as stated by VenDell in BoM, as I have said a few times now. It fits into my theory, and I have explained why the word Identity would not have been used pre BoM before.

9 hours ago, Pattern said:

2.) I propose that Identity enables different types of Investitures to interfere with each other: Investitures can only interfere if they fit to the same sDNA.

We only know so far that Investiture with another Identity cannot be accessed by a Feruchemist (supporting 1, but not contradicting 2) and we only have seen Compounding with Identity matches (supporting 2, but not contradicting 1), so both propositions are the same kind of stretch, both not really far stretches.

Just to be clear, this is not the same theory I was arguing against in my last post.

This is possible and basically the opposite side of the same coin of my proposed theory. I can't really disprove it with the evidence at hand, but it doesn't have the same appealing symmetry with medallions and the manipulation of Identity we've seen so far.

9 hours ago, Pattern said:

Mixing/Interference of Investitures is to be understood as an interaction of different powers, here Allomancy and Feruchemy. In the Ars Arcanum from BoM it is hinted that the mixing of different types of Investiture has curious effects.

I'm not following the logic here. I just said Identity interference as a way of describing how unique Identities prevent Investiture from interacting. We see this with statements 4,5 and 6 of my previous post. While this can prevent interactions between Investiture, I did not consider it a result of different magics interacting. Clarification would be appreciated.

(Ah, new posts have clarified this since I started writing.)

2 hours ago, Pattern said:

Exactly. Two types of Investiture within an individual (having an Identity) lead to resonances. Compounding is the kind of resonance happening for a X-X Twinborn (X denoting any allomantic/feruchemical metal). Twinborn with two different metals have more subtle resonances.

I see what you're saying here, but Identity is never mentioned in relation to resonances, and compounding and resonances are described pretty differently. Compounding is described as an unexpected specific trick or hack that allows you to change how Investiture from Preservation is utilized, while resonances are described as a sort of natural result of having multiple powers.

A relevant BoM passage:

Spoiler

“We need to stay ahead of those who might use this for ill purposes,” VenDell said. “We need to experiment and determine how these Identity-free metalminds would work.”

“Doing so will be dangerous,” Wax said. “Mixing the powers is incredibly dangerous.”

“Says the Twinborn,” MeLaan said.

“I’m safe,” Wax said, glancing at her. “My powers don’t compound—they’re from different metals.”

“They may not compound,” VenDell said, “but they’re still fascinating, Lord Waxillium. Any mixing of Allomancy and Feruchemy has unanticipated effects.”

Wax's abilities don't interact at all in the way that Feruchemical Investiture shapes Allomatic Investiture during compounding, yet they still interact in some manner to produce a resonance. It's possible that compounding is a dramatic version of resonance possible due to the direct mixing of different Investitures, but that doesn't have to be related to Identity to be explained.

Edited by 8bitBob
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2 hours ago, Pattern said:

Exactly. Two types of Investiture within an individual (having an Identity) lead to resonances. Compounding is the kind of resonance happening for a X-X Twinborn (X denoting any allomantic/feruchemical metal). Twinborn with two different metals have more subtle resonances.

Compounding is not a resonance. This is demonstrated by the fact that TLR is confirmed to not having any resonances due to being a Fullborn, yet could still compound.

Furthermore, based on what we've seen, resonances are not directly used in conjunction to the powers which create them. Examples being: Lightweavers have some sort of memory ability and Windrunners increase the quality and quantity of their squires. Neither resonance empowers either surgebinding power directly. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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@SpoolofwhoolWhere is it confirmed that TLR is not having resonances?

I think the memory ability enhances lightweaving a lot, so I wouldn't say it has no effect on the surges.

@8bitBob Yes, Wax's abilities interfering with separate metals yield a resonance. Now you don't really want to tell me that this would not be the case if the metals did coincide, like it is with Miles. There is some resonance at work, if resonance is a real thing.

We know that there are types of Investiture which are linked to Identity and others not. Need to look up the WoB, that could take a while though. Biochromatic Breath should be in the "Investiture with Identity" category, "Me Breath to Yours" comes to mind there. Stealing breath after all is not possible.

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32 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Yes, Wax's abilities interfering with separate metals yield a resonance. Now you don't really want to tell me that this would not be the case if the metals did coincide, like it is with Miles.

I'm not saying this is impossible because we have little to go on, but this does not confirm that compounding is a function of resonance. Spoolofwhool makes a good point here. The resonance of Lightweaving creates an entirely new effect with memory enhancement. This is useful in Lightweaving, but it is not directly related to it, and that is actually consistent with the full passage you quoted earlier:

Quote

It is possible on Scadrial to be born with ability to access both Allomancy and Feruchemy. This has been of specific interest to me lately, as the mixing of different types of Investiture has curious effects. One needs look only at what has happened on Roshar to find this manifested—two powers, combined, often have an almost chemical reaction. Instead of getting out exactly what you put in, you get something new.

On Scadrial, someone with one Allomantic power and one Feruchemical power is called “Twinborn.” The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination also creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers … and an effect. This demands further study.

In the case of compounding, you're getting exactly what you put in, but you get a lot of it. While you can argue that getting more is an effect, it doesn't exactly sound like something new. The equivalent resonance here could be something like, I dunno, being a double Pewter makes you gain muscle mass faster. Or something. Just an example.

This doesn't prove it either way, but I do not think that it's a given that compounding is a function of resonance.

Unless Spoolofwhool is right that TLR has no resonance. I have not seen this WoB, and I'm interested too.

edit:

Forgot to respond to this part:

32 minutes ago, Pattern said:

We know that there are types of Investiture which are linked to Identity and others not. Need to look up the WoB, that could take a while though. Biochromatic Breath should be in the "Investiture with Identity" category, "Me Breath to Yours" comes to mind there. Stealing breath after all is not possible.

Feruchemy would be considered "Investiture with Identity," yet VenDell thinks it's totally possible for a feruchemist with no Identity to tap another person's keyed metalminds, and we have no reason to think this is incorrect.

We only know stealing Breath is impossible in as much as we have not seen someone do it. We also have not seen any Awakener's with the ability to manipulate Identity though.

Edited by 8bitBob
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5 hours ago, Pattern said:

@SpoolofwhoolWhere is it confirmed that TLR is not having resonances?

 

There's a WoB that says that neither Mistborn nor Full Feruchemists have resonances  (I think the phrasing he used w/r/t the Resonances was "those little quirks", if it helps?).  Ergo, TLR, being both of those, wouldn't have them either.  

Edited by Landis963
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48 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Where is it confirmed that TLR is not having resonances?

12 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

There's a WoB that says that neither Mistborn nor Full Feruchemists have resonances

Thank Yata

Quote

Yata:There is something that recently was debate by some fans and I hope you may give some clue about the "side effect of interaction between magic" as was pointed in the Twinborn and Surgebinder Cases: Are those "perks" stackable ? To say if I am a Fullborn like Rashek, will I have all the possible Twinborn's perks or a specific "Fullborn's perk" ? And about the same topic, a Mistborn or Full Feruchemist has his own perk/perks ?

Brandon: I've worked under the premise that if you hold too many of the powers, like a Mistborn, the result is a loss of these little quirks. The mechanics of it are interesting, but I'll leave you to theorize on that sort of thing.
source

 

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@The One Who Connects I'll thank Yata and you for that! My search for it was proving fruitless.

That seems pretty conclusive as far as these things go. If TLR has no resonances and can still compound, that should mean that compounding is not related to resonance.

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Just now, 8bitBob said:

My search for it was proving fruitless.

I remembered the original topic in the Q&A section. Additional fun fact, the search bar does not appear to read text that is in quoteboxes. This is important, because it means that you have to find quoted WoBs via context clues in your search results.

Confirmation of a different type. Compounding is a hack, not a perk.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Compounding is a way to hack the magic system so you can get a Feruchemical attribute out of-- basically powering Feruchemy with Allomancy.

[Upon reread, this WoB has been linked earlier in this thread]

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The WoB definitely confirms, but just because I can't get the thought out of my head, think of the meaning of the word resonance. 

In terms of sound and music, you can strike two notes and hear a resonance. Three or even 4 tones and you create a chord, but it has to be just right. Beyond outliers of perfect happenstance anything more is just noise. Each note is still played, but there's no resonance to create a greater sound, just noise. 

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First an answer to @8bitBob

Quote
On 8.3.2017 at 5:54 PM, 8bitBob said:
On 8.3.2017 at 8:38 AM, Pattern said:

The " Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." also would have to be discarded.

It's not being discarded, Spiritual connection is just assumed to be Identity here as it matches the description of Identity as stated by VenDell in BoM, as I have said a few times now. It fits into my theory, and I have explained why the word Identity would not have been used pre BoM before.

I have argumented several times now, why this cannot be used to support your theory - which arguments you just don't accept and wiggle around. Saying several times that it does, does not make it so. So I repeat one last time

This WoB

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

KURKISTAN

If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhn... Okay. If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive.

KURKISTAN

Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Still has allomancy.

KURKISTAN

And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.

KURKISTAN

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

KURKISTAN

Was Paalm doing that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a RAFO

can be summarized: "A misting (what Miles is as soon as his feruchemical power is stolen) can compound his old metalmind, because it has his Identity." Unfortunately the "because" is missing in the WoB. I imply it from context, you threw phrases like "correlation does not imply causation" - in a rather condescending way. So Brandon would have been intentionally misleading. Usually he RAFOs, if he doesn't want to tell something (he even does it in the end of this quote). So I take the "Spiritual Connection" - which probably is just another term for Identity - as the reason for the compounding to work. As we all agreed, you don't need to access a metalmind to compound, so no feruchemical ability should be needed for compounding. So this does not contradict that a ferring who got his power ripped away cannot access his metalminds anymore. He would not have the ability anymore. A twinborn who still had allomancy after getting ripped away feruchemy could still burn the metalmind and would get power from it (actually from Preservation filtered through the metalmind), if the metalmind is charged with his feruchemical charge.  

To the tangent of resonances:

Ok, I am convinced, compounding is a hack, not a resonance. As are the medallions:

Spoiler

Question

So nicrosil. Wax couldn’t use a blank gold metalmind because he’s not a gold ferring, why can he use a blank nicrosil metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

So this will all come out eventually but the idea is there are certain ways to connect yourself to the magic, to hack the magic and make it think you have the Spiritual DNA that you don’t actually have. And this is one of the ways.

Question

And the people who made this medallion have this thing that a regular nicrosil Ferring couldn’t--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you’re picking up on it. We’ll dig deeper into it as the series progresses.

Defining a hack as a clever way of (ab)using the magic system. Some tangent to Biochromatic Breath:

Spoiler

As for Breath not being stealable (is that a word?): In the beginning of Warbreaker, where Vasher tries to get more Breath from Vahr in the prison, he has to make a deal with Vahr, so he gives Vasher his Breath. If someone knew a command how to steal Breath it would be Vasher - he is THE awakening prodigy. It is neither possible for him to retain Breath from cloth which Vivenna Awakened. First she has to draw the breath back, then she can give it to Vasher. Still, there are more things about BioChroma they don't know than they know, so there is a loophole.

The thing with Breath and Identity is indeed at least ambiguous. The "My Breath become yours" command could also be a very basic expression of the shards Intent (Endowment) and have nothing to do with Identity at all.

So I guess the main topic is exhausted, we get more and more to other tangents. Though interesting, this won't really help the thread. I agree that it is a plausible scenario that a misting can burn an unkeyed metalmind to get access to the stored feruchemical attribute, though that would degrade the spiritual attribute of Identity to a mere key to one's feruchemical charges. To like that or not is a matter of taste, I feel this would be an anticlimactic solution for the mysterious spiritual attribute(s).

"The Lost Metal" hopefully will give us more insight to that.

Edited by Pattern
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2 hours ago, Pattern said:

I have argumented several times now, why this cannot be used to support your theory - which arguments you just don't accept and wiggle around. Saying several times that it does, does not make it so. So I repeat one last time

This WoB ... can be summarized: "A misting (what Miles is as soon as his feruchemical power is stolen) can compound his old metalmind, because it has his Identity."

I have not ignored your arguments here or "wiggled around" the topic, and I have done my best to address every point as they come up. I immediately addressed what I thought it meant and why this isn't contradicted in the theory. In that quote, I did not say that it proves my theory, or even supports it, but rather that it fits within the scope of it. That is to say, it does not necessarily contradict the theory.

I am sorry you took offense to the line "correlation doesn't imply causation," but I did not think it was something that could offend. It simply refers to the fact that a relationship between two things does not necessarily mean one is responsible for the other. I realise this was a needlessly complicated and pretentious way of phrasing it, but I had a disclaimer immediately preceding it that I was tired and likely to use pretentious language (this is why I stopped responding afterwards and got some rest. I could tell it was affecting my writing.) That being said, I explain what I meant more directly right afterwards:

Quote

Your interpretation of this line implies that the metalmind can be burned as a direct result of this connection, but an equally valid interpretation is that this correlates with the underlying mechanics of why this works, i.e. Identity under my interpretation.

Note the bolded. An equally valid interpretation, because they both are. I had my own interpretation and it fit the theory well enough that I was not worried about it. I said "I have said it a few times now" because I thought I had made my stance clear, but it kept getting brought up. I see now that it was not as clear as I thought it was, so I'll restate it here:

This line is not being discarded, nor is it being ignored. I feel there is a reasonable interpretation that reconciles it within the theory and did not feel the need to elaborate further. There are other ways to interpret it, but this is the position from which I am working from.

Edited by 8bitBob
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Well, I have already seen other threads using the assumption that unkeyed metalminds can be burned by any misting to create other hacks. So until we see anything that definitely says that this is not possible (new WoB or The Last Metal) I will go with that, contradicting every time would be a waste of time. The assumption is at least easy and likely enough to do so.

Brandon will be quite near in two weeks (500 km), perhaps I can shuffle free some time to go to the reading/signing events to put in one or two questions. Chances are bad I will make it, though. We'll se...

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So up front, I haven't read this entire huge thread but I have read from @8bitBob's very handy big post onwards. So if what I'm about to say has been covered, I apologize. I love all the theorising even if it's gotten a little heated :)

There's one WoB that makes me feel that the issue of identity is in favor of the idea that to compound you must have had your identity tied to the feruchemical charge, rather than it being accessible through a lack of identity.

Quote

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality

Relevant part in bold.

So this says to me, with no proof but with implication, that you must have had the relevant feruchemical attribute yourself, even if you don't any longer (through it being spiked out). "I know how to do that". To me that's saying that yes you can burn the metal but the reason you can filter the power of Preservation through the feruchemy is because it was stored by you. It doesn't feel right that if someone else stored it, you burning it figures out the feruchemical filter.

Very happy to be corrected :)

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4 hours ago, Extesian said:

So up front, I haven't read this entire huge thread but I have read from @8bitBob's very handy big post onwards. So if what I'm about to say has been covered, I apologize. I love all the theorising even if it's gotten a little heated :)

There's one WoB that makes me feel that the issue of identity is in favor of the idea that to compound you must have had your identity tied to the feruchemical charge, rather than it being accessible through a lack of identity.

Relevant part in bold.

So this says to me, with no proof but with implication, that you must have had the relevant feruchemical attribute yourself, even if you don't any longer (through it being spiked out). "I know how to do that". To me that's saying that yes you can burn the metal but the reason you can filter the power of Preservation through the feruchemy is because it was stored by you. It doesn't feel right that if someone else stored it, you burning it figures out the feruchemical filter.

Very happy to be corrected :)

Interesting point. I've always interpreted that WoB as the allomantic power "saying" that line in a general term. So what I've taken it to mean is that the allomantic power is finding the feruchemical charge-enhanced metal which is different than normal, but the power is still "I know how to mimic that," so it goes ahead and does so. Note that this power hasn't reached you yet. It's still on the other side of the filter made from the metal. In order to reach you it has to pass through the filter by changing itself to mimic the feruchemical charge. So it's not your allomantic power changing to mimic something you know how to do, it's power from Preservation changing to do something we know investiture can do.

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7 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Interesting point. I've always interpreted that WoB as the allomantic power "saying" that line in a general term. So what I've taken it to mean is that the allomantic power is finding the feruchemical charge-enhanced metal which is different than normal, but the power is still "I know how to mimic that," so it goes ahead and does so. Note that this power hasn't reached you yet. It's still on the other side of the filter made from the metal. In order to reach you it has to pass through the filter by changing itself to mimic the feruchemical charge. So it's not your allomantic power changing to mimic something you know how to do, it's power from Preservation changing to do something we know investiture can do.

Yeah that's a fair interpretation as well and I'm not wedded to either. The only thing I'd note with your explanation is when you say the power has to mimic the feeuchemical charge to reach you. I don't think it has to, necessarily.

Spoiler

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

... Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

So it can bypass the feruchemical charge. But I do agree that your explanation about the power not having reached you yet is plausible, and probably more likely.

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On 07/03/2017 at 2:07 PM, 8bitBob said:

Contrast that with the theory that a connection to your metalminds via Identity is the reason former twinborn can compound, while also being the reason former ferrings can't access their metalminds because getting spiked changes their Identity. The second part contradicts the fact that Miles' can still burn his own goldmind and thus shares an Identity with it, and the first part is predicated on a new ability of Identity which we have no direct evidence of. It feels flimsy because it has potential holes and it is inventing solutions to the problem, rather than applying the mechanics on hand.

The key difference for me in the Ferring/Miles issue is that in the WoB about Miles still being able to use his Goldmind to heal the question explicitly asks what happens if Miles is already tapping Health when he's Spiked.  The flow of Investiture is already open to him, from his metalminds and therefore my conclusion would be that in this case: loosing the ability to tap doesn't mean any open taps just automatically close; you just can't open any new ones.

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8 minutes ago, Vecna said:

The key difference for me in the Ferring/Miles issue is that in the WoB about Miles still being able to use his Goldmind to heal the question explicitly asks what happens if Miles is already tapping Health when he's Spiked.  The flow of Investiture is already open to him, from his metalminds and therefore my conclusion would be that in this case: loosing the ability to tap doesn't mean any open taps just automatically close; you just can't open any new ones.

This is why I later switched to the example of the spiked Coinshot in the same WoB, as the fact that he was already burning a goldmind and could heal back his feruchemy was confusing the issue.

Quote

KURKISTAN

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

KURKISTAN

Was Paalm doing that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a RAFO

If the difference here was that Miles was still burning his goldmind and that's why it worked, I feel Brandon would have clarified here. It's clearly implied that the Coinshot is burning the steelmind after losing the spike, even if it's not explicitly stated.

edit:

Also, it should be noted that Miles' is in the middle of burning a goldmind, not tapping it.

Edited by 8bitBob
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4 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

This is why I later switched to the example of the spiked Coinshot in the same WoB, as the fact that he was already burning a goldmind and could heal back his feruchemy was confusing the issue.

If the difference here was that Miles was still burning his goldmind and that's why it worked, I feel Brandon would have clarified here. It's clearly implied that the Coinshot is burning the steelmind after losing the spike, even if it's not explicitly stated.

edit:

Also, it should be noted that Miles' is in the middle of burning a goldmind, not tapping it.

Good point - missed that.  Too early on a Saturday morning...

As for the burning/tapping - is he burning burning or compounding burning?  Because the latter is functionally equivalent to tapping in my mind. :)

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Just now, Vecna said:

As for the burning/tapping - is he burning burning or compounding burning?  Because the latter is functionally equivalent to tapping in my mind. :)

This is how I see many people interpret compounding, but all the evidence I've found points to the fact that compounding is actually Allomancy, not Feruchemy. If you have not read it, here's my big ranty post on the exact mechanics of compounding that I posted later on in the thread. It has a lot of different citations and evidence to its credit, and it will help you see how I came to this conclusion.

This interpretation of compounding actually goes all the way back to the very first Mistborn book. Here's a passage from the epilogue:

Quote

“Allomancy draws its power from metals,” Marsh said. “Feruchemy draws its powers from the person’s own body.”

“Exactly,” Sazed said. “So, what the Lord Ruler did—I presume—was combine these two abilities. He used one of the attributes only available to Feruchemy—that of changing his age—but fueled it with Allomancy instead. By burning a Feruchemical storage that he himself had made, he effectively made a new Allomantic metal for himself—one that made him younger when he burned it. 

Even way back here, compounding is described as Allomancy that is being modified by Feruchemy, rather than Feruchemy that is powered by Allomancy.

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Just now, 8bitBob said:

This is how I see many people interpret compounding, but all the evidence I've found points to the fact that compounding is actually Allomancy, not Feruchemy. If you have not read it, here's my big ranty post on the exact mechanics of compounding that I posted later on in the thread. It has a lot of different citations and evidence to its credit, and it will help you see how I came to this conclusion.

This interpretation of compounding actually goes all the way back to the very first Mistborn book. Here's a passage from the epilogue:

Even way back here, compounding is described as Allomancy that is being modified by Feruchemy, rather than Feruchemy that is powered by Allomancy.

Sorry, I agree. :P

By functionally equivalent I meant they have the same outcome not that they were the same thing.  Sure it's Allomancy, but it has a Feruchemical output - or to be even more precise it's Allomancy that produces an effect that can normally only be modified by Feruchemy.

Regardless of how the mechanics work underneath, tapping Gold and Compounding Gold still both produce Health - their function is the same even if the internal logic of the code is written in two different languages. :)

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