Theory: Allomancers can compound feruchemical charges

[Pattern Lord Prelan]

2 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

After the spike is removed, it is confirmed that the Coinshot can still burn the metalmind for speed. At this point he completely lacks the ferring sDNA and will not be getting it back, but is still able to use their allomancy for ferumancy. How do you explain this? You're treating Spiritual Identity as some sort of enabler for ferumancy, but it's really more of a doorman choosing who gets in. Having the right Identity does not make the Coinshot a Steelrunner.

This is explicit confirmation that you do not require feruchemical powers to burn a metalmind. I do not see how that is not related to the theory at hand.

Ok, here we have confirmation that an allomancer burning a feruchemical charged metal will be releasing the f-charge and not the a-charge. But can he use it always? Here it works with the allomancers Identity (remember, he himself charged the metal without storing his Identity away). The reason for this to work could still be the charge recognizing the allomancer as his owner.

And no, I was not treating Identity an an enabler for Feruchemy, just as an explanation why the charge goes back to its owner, lacking the ability. I could reply that you are treating an unkeyed f-charge as an enabler to Feruchemy - at least to tapping. Which I think is not possible, and the above example cannot be taken as a confirmation for that theory, since there is the loophole with Identity. In both the gold and steel examples. I don't say it is impossible either (I only think that it doesn't work, not improbable that I am wrong there), just that the example does not fit. The preconditions don't fit to allow any logical conclusions.

Both scenarios say that an allomancer burning a metalmind with his identity gets the feruchemical power stored in it (x10 or so). Nothing less and nothing more.

[8bitBob Hazekiller]

7 minutes ago, Pattern said:

And no, I was not treating Identity an an enabler for Feruchemy, just as an explanation why the charge goes back to its owner, lacking the ability.

Again, this would still ultimately be Identity being the difference between granting an ability or not, which is the definition of an enabler. So far as we understand, the only difference between this situation and an unkeyed metalmind being burned is Identity, and nothing we've learned about ferumancy would suggest that it could have this effect. While not impossible, it's certainly not directly supported by anything discussed so far.

Yes, this whole theory is speculation based on a confirmation of a different, but very similar situation, but it is supported by information learned in later books and our current understanding of the related concepts. It is not confirmation that it works, but it is certainly supported and plausible.

2 minutes ago, Pattern said:

I could reply that you are treating an unkeyed f-charge as an enabler to Feruchemy - at least to tapping. Which I think is not possible, and the above example cannot be taken as a confirmation for that theory, since there is the loophole with Identity. In both the gold and steel examples.

That's working under the assumption that allo-feru compounding requires tapping, which is not a given. Based on everything we know about allomancy and compounding, it's entirely possible (and likely based on these WoB, in my opinion) that burning a metalmind alters the result of the magic, which is still accomplished with allomancy. This fits in with the WoB metaphor of metals telling the Investiture what to do. This is speculation though.

[Pattern Lord Prelan]

1 hour ago, 8bitBob said:

Again, this would still ultimately be Identity being the difference between granting an ability or not, which is the definition of an enabler. So far as we understand, the only difference between this situation and an unkeyed metalmind being burned is Identity, and nothing we've learned about ferumancy would suggest that it could have this effect. While not impossible, it's certainly not directly supported by anything discussed so far.

Yes, this whole theory is speculation based on a confirmation of a different, but very similar situation, but it is supported by information learned in later books and our current understanding of the related concepts. It is not confirmation that it works, but it is certainly supported and plausible.

That's working under the assumption that allo-feru compounding requires tapping, which is not a given. Based on everything we know about allomancy and compounding, it's entirely possible (and likely based on these WoB, in my opinion) that burning a metalmind alters the result of the magic, which is still accomplished with allomancy. This fits in with the WoB metaphor of metals telling the Investiture what to do. This is speculation though.

Identity is the difference between being able to use the charge or not: A keyed metalmind cannot be used by another ferring lacking the right Identity. An unkeyed metalmind can be used by any fering. It would be an elegant symmetry if you could use the keyed charge yourself even if you didn't have the ability at that time (anymore). You had the ability before, so the Identity doesn't give you an ability itself but the charge which has a spiritual connection to you still works for you. This spiritual connection is used as an explanation for the examples to work, so we shouldn't just ignore it and treat unkeyed metalminds the same as keyed.

Here a WoB about the metalmind altering the magic (Spoiler tags for space)

Spoiler

"Question

How does compounding work in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality."

---http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=feruchemy item 9

 

"The other place" is obviously the Spiritual Realm - or on Sel the Cognitive Realm. Here again both powers are needed for the compounding to work. Though it's ambiguous, not treating the possibility of unkeyed metalminds that could be burned. So here might be an indication that above theory might actually work (not what I intended to work out, but there it is). IF the compounded metalmind alone determines that the power of Feruchemy is boosted from the SR, then it would be possible to access that power from burning an unkeyed metalmind.

Classical compounding is feruchemy fuelled by allomancy, there is WoB

Spoiler

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/?section=findpost&pid=30533

to be a way to use compounding the other way around, to fuel Allomancy using stored feruchemical attributes. Burning an unkeyed metalmind and obtaining the f-power could be this. It still does not feel balanced though. The misting is lacking the sDNA to use the f-power in any controlled way. The misting could control the release of f-charge by controlling the burning rate but there being only 3 (?) burning rates makes it clumsy, the best.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Pattern

[8bitBob Hazekiller]

(I see that you have updated your post for clarity now, which I appreciate. I'm going to leave this as is though, so sorry if it seems like it's ignoring what you added. Not trying to do so.)

Sorry, I assume the first WoB is for this passage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy

I am taking this as refutation of my theory that compounding does not require feruchemy (I've been saying ferumancy for so long... For shame!)

Thing is, this was actually one of the WoB that gave me the idea. Note that "Having the power of feruchemy" does not necessarily mean being a feruchemist. Power of feruchemy could still refer to simply having access to a metalmind, and at no point does it say that you tap metalminds. Let's look at the exact working:

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The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal...

... In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality."

Note the very specific wording. You draw power from the other place, and it passes through the metal, which shapes the power. We know classic allomancy (and other magic systems, like in Elantris) work this way. Compounding is described as the same process, but the feruchemical charge alters how the power is shaped. In every instance of WoB on the subject of compounding I have found, the wording is similar.

 

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INTERVIEW: Jun 20th, 2009

Idaho Falls Signing Report - Andrew the Great

Mistborn Questions:

ANDREW THE GREAT

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

 

Bolded and enlarged the most relevant portion. Brandon seems to be very precise with this wording every time it comes up, and he never explicitly says you have to tap the metalmind or be a feruchemist, even in the old ones (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Under this logic of allomancy drawing power through a metalmind, and the metalmind altering the result of that power, it is entirely possible that you do not need anything other than Identity access to compound. This would be a totally plausible explanation for why Miles, the Coinshot/former Steelrunner and vanilla mistings could compound unkeyed metalminds.

(I see that you have updated your post for clarity now, which I appreciate. I'm going to leave this as is though, so sorry if it seems like it's ignoring what you added. Not trying to do so.)

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Identity is the difference between being able to use the charge or not: A keyed metalmind cannot be used by another ferring lacking the right Identity. An unkeyed metalmind can be used by any fering. It would be an elegant symmetry if you could use the keyed charge yourself even if you didn't have the ability at that time (anymore). You had the ability before, so the Identity doesn't give you an ability itself but the charge which has a spiritual connection to you still works for you. This spiritual connection is used as an explanation for the examples to work, so we shouldn't just ignore it and treat unkeyed metalminds the same as keyed.

The reason I'm sort of dismissing the Spiritual connection is because of the timeline of the WoB, and VenDell's explanation of Idenity in BoM. I'll repost it here for convenience:

Spoiler

“The raw power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy,” VenDell said, “is something we call Investiture. This is very important, as in Feruchemy, an individual’s Investiture is keyed specifically to them. To what we call Identity.”

“You’ve made me curious,” Wax said, looking at the wall as VenDell leisurely walked back to his machine. “How does it know? My metalminds … do they recognize me?”

“After a fashion,” VenDell said, changing the image to one of a Feruchemist tapping strength. The woman’s muscles had grown to several times their normal size as she lifted a horse above her head. “Each man or woman has a Spiritual aspect, a piece of themselves that exists in another Realm entirely. You might call it your soul. Your Investiture is keyed to your soul—indeed, it might be a part of your soul, much as your blood is a part of your body.”

“So if a person could store their Identity,” Marasi said, “as Waxillium does with his weight…”

“They’d be without it for a time,” VenDell said. “A blank slate, so to speak.”

In this quote, VenDell first states that Investiture is keyed to Identity. Then he specifically mentions Spiritual aspect, otherwise known as a soul, which these are also keyed to, all while explaining Identity. He does not explicitly state Spiritual connection, but it's not a stretch to connect them.

Here's where the timeline of the WoB comes in. It was from before BoM, and before that point, Brandon played the effects of Identity very close to his chest. So I can totally see him simply saying Spiritual connection rather than Identity and confirming all the fun theories and taking away the impact of Bands of Mourning, which if you recall, he wrote before Shadows of Self, so all this was still in his mind.

To me, it would make perfect sense if this Spiritual connection was simply Identity. A theory for sure, but not a crazy one.

Edited March 6, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Pattern Lord Prelan]

Quote

INTERVIEW: Jun 20th, 2009

Idaho Falls Signing Report - Andrew the Great

Mistborn Questions:

ANDREW THE GREAT

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

I feel free to reuse your quote. The last two sentences are making the quote ambiguous again. Probably in 2009 the concept of unkeyed metalminds was not an issue. The question still is: Do you need Identity (spiritual connection) to access the feruchemical charge or is it sufficient to have an unkeyed metalmind to allomantically release the feruchemical charge (so it's not blocked). For Feruchemists it's just the lack of Identity-lock that is sufficient, but is it also for an Allomancer? It's probably the easiest solution to say "Yes, as long as something is not blocked, it's available". The easiest solution is not always the right one, though.

Once again I am brought back to hypothetical Miles who would be able to use the healing power stored in the goldmind - and now I reformulate it to post BoM terminology - because the charge was stored with his Identity. The fact that the f-charge was stored with his Identity is given as the reason for the described mechanism to work.

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BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.

Storing an attribute in a metalmind without putting aside one's Identity into another metalmind would create some kind of Spiritual connection between Feruchemist and metalmind (not to be confused with the feruchemical power Connection).

So lets apply some logic and see where it leads us. Problem is, a feruchemical charge can have three states so lets define three statements

A: Misting burns F-charge keyed to himself.

B: Misting burns unkeyed F-charge.

C: Misting burns F-charge keyed to another person.

FP: Feruchemical Power is set free

AP: Allomantical Power is set free

Assume a Misting IS burning a metalmind (leave out aluminium). ! denotes logical NOT; <=> is equivalency, => denotes implication

(A => FP)   <=>  (!FP =>!A)                                       bold: statements from WoBs
(C => AP)    <=>  (!AP => !C)

(! B = A OR C  => FP OR AP )

<=> (! (FP OR AP) = !FP  AND !AP => !(!B ) = B

So if you see a Misting burning a metalmind without effects, he must be burning an unkeyed metalmind. That however does NOT say, that burning an unkeyed metalmind does give no effect. Feel free to play around with this a bit more, my time today is running out unfortunately ;-(

Edited March 6, 2017 by Pattern

[Spoolofwhool Stone Shaman]

Fascinating discussions. Can't do much about it now but I'd like to offer two thoughts.

First of all, VenDell did imply that a ferring without identity could tap a keyed metalmind, at least that he considered it a possibility after experimentation. This indicates to me, along with other information from WoBs, that identity causes interference which prevents tapping or burning. Removing identity from one party removes the interference.

Secondly, I don't think the feruchemical charge is releases during compounding. My understanding of the process is that the charge in the metal is destroyed along with the metal, but it filters the allomantic power into a duplicate of the charge. This goes directly into the body of the allomancer as if they had tapped the charge. 

[Calderis God Beyond]

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you @Pattern. After Vin swallow Sazed's metalmind she says that at first she doesn't feel anything and then says there is a different source that she can't touch. She is able to recognize a second source of power, but can't burn it because it is keyed to Sazed. If the identity block were removed, I see no reason why she would not be able to burn a charge from a metal that she is able to sense.

 

[8bitBob Hazekiller]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

I feel free to reuse your quote. The last two sentences are making the quote ambiguous again. Probably in 2009 the concept of unkeyed metalminds was not an issue.

Like you say, Identity was not an issue in 2009, but this sounds exactly like Identity as described in BoM. This WoB doesn't prove the theory (I doubt any could), it just supports it if you accept my interpretation, which includes that the final line refers to Identity. In essence, you're providing an alternate explanation for why this works, rather than a direct refutation of the theory. As such, I'm forced to view both theories in a vacuum and decide which I feel is more well supported and likely. Unfortunately, it is impossible to be unbiased in this and I won't even pretend to be.

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Storing an attribute in a metalmind without putting aside one's Identity into another metalmind would create some kind of Spiritual connection between Feruchemist and metalmind (not to be confused with the feruchemical power Connection).

The crux of my issue with your theory is that it is predicated on a different interpretation of Spiritual connection to theorize a new type of connection, of which I remain unconvinced. The extent of your argument for it consists of, "But what if it wasn't that?" Yes, it is totally possible that I am incorrect in my interpretation that it refers to Identity, but it's not exactly a compelling argument.

By comparison, I'm providing examples from the books with VenDell and Vin, drawing parallels to other confirmed situations in WoB, explaining the theoretical mechanics behind my interpretation and explaining why the word Identity wasn't used as a meta commentary on when the quotes were written. I'm never going to be able to prove I'm right, but I'm making my case.

This is not to say that my interpretation is better, or that you're definitely wrong (I'm trying to be at least a little unbiased here), but rather to say that you have not convinced me on this aspect of your theory.

Disclaimer: I unreservedly apologize if this section came off as condescending as that was not my intention, I just have a tendency to sound increasingly pretentious as exhaustion sets in. I'll probably stop responding after this post and come back with a fresh perspective and refreshed brain tomorrow.

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

The fact that the f-charge was stored with his Identity is given as the reason for the described mechanism to work.

To slightly misuse and thoroughly abuse an old adage, correlation doesn't imply causation. Your interpretation of this line implies that the metalmind can be burned as a direct result of this connection, but an equally valid interpretation is that this correlates with the underlying mechanics of why this works, i.e. Identity under my interpretation.

As for the logic puzzle, I'm sorry, but my brain cannot process this at the moment. I stared at it for nearly thirty minutes, but it's now 7am here and I am simply not up to task. Probably does not help that I haven't done this sort of thinking in nigh on five years. If you or someone else could explain this with words, that would be much appreciated.

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Secondly, I don't think the feruchemical charge is releases during compounding. My understanding of the process is that the charge in the metal is destroyed along with the metal, but it filters the allomantic power into a duplicate of the charge. This goes directly into the body of the allomancer as if they had tapped the charge. 

This is the interpretation I'm leaning towards, though I don't really have any evidence to back it up at the moment.

Edited March 6, 2017 by 8bitBob

[The One Who Connects Dawnsinger]

1 hour ago, 8bitBob said:

From what I can tell, the template of how you heal is based on Identity and maybe other Cognitive aspects, while the injury is to the Spirit.

Identity is understood to be a Spiritual Attribute(hence why it is in the Spiritual Quadrant of Feruchemy) There is also this Relevant WoB, which combined with Pattern's first WoB helps us sort this out. [Noticed your quote on next page. VenDell basically confirms it to be a spiritual thing]

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[–]Logic_Nuke 6 points 1 year ago 

I heard you were still answering questions, so:

1. Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

2. Do you have a [....]

[–]mistborn[S] 14 points 1 year ago 

1. Most forms of extreme Cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.
2. Yes, but [..]

Underline added. Relevant segment of Pattern's WoB here for clarity.

9 hours ago, Pattern said:

So you've said that healing is like the spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal.

The Spiritual Ideal/Template is what the power wants to heal you to, and it gets filtered through your Identity and your Cognitive aspects of how you see yourself(Lopen's arm, Kelsier's Scars, etc..) so you get healed to yourself, rather than the exact spiritual template for "human" / "human male" or something similar

1 hour ago, 8bitBob said:

I'm not sure I understand your point then. Why would this non power based Connection be more relevant than Identity for Miles? He still shares an Identity with his goldminds.

Since Identity is a Spiritual Component, it consists of this non-power connection by being in the Spiritual. I'm not saying that the connection is more important than Identity, I'm saying that some of this connection are his Identity. His identity is connected to him, thus why it is his identity. The goldmind recognizes the matching Identity, so it still believes that he can access the power. (You didn't quote anybody, so if this statement wasn't aimed towards me then I apologize.) I suppose that this could potentially answer your Steel Spike question, in a way [This is kinda the same argument Pattern made on the next page, which I only noticed later]

1 hour ago, 8bitBob said:

As for the logic puzzle, I'm sorry, but my brain cannot process this at the moment

Let me try my luck at understanding

• (A => FP) : Misting burns their own Metalmind (A) --> Gets Feruchemical Power (FP)
• (C => AP) : Misting burns someone else's Metalmind (C) --> Gets Allomantic Power (AP)
• (!FP => !A) (!AP => !C) : Getting this power does not automatically mean that they are burning a Metalmind?
       @Pattern please clarify
• (! B = A or C => FP or AP) : Misting burning an unkeyed Metalmind (B) is not the same as burning their own/someone else's(A or C)
       Not sure why FP/AP are there is that was all they meant though... Never mind, I get it now
       Burning an unkeyed Metalmind(B) is not the same as burning a keyed one(A or C) to get the powers(FP/AP)
• (! (FP OR AP) = !FP  AND !AP => !(!B ) = B  :  Give me a minute or Six. Too many !'s implying "not"...
      Not(FP or AP) equals Not FP and Not AP (makes sense I guess?) : Not getting either power == not getting any power
      Not(Not B ) equals B (also somewhat makes sense) : Implications Unclear, Double Negative unkeyed Metalmind == unkeyed Metalmind
      Not FP and Not AP equals B (much clearer when separate): Not getting any power from burning implies burning an unkeyed Metalmind

Edited March 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects
I understood something

[Spoolofwhool Stone Shaman]

I disagree with the idea that you can burn the metal and not gain any power. The way I see it, a metal is burned because power is gained. As the allomantic investiture is drawn from its source, it's filtered through the metal into a specific form, during which the metal is destroyed. Therefore, to destroy the metal without gaining any power would mean that you are somehow drawing power out, but then it is just vanishing before it can reach you proper.

[The One Who Connects Dawnsinger]

2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I disagree with the idea that you can burn the metal and not gain any power.

I agree with you, but that was only my interpretation of Pattern's logic puzzle. I mentioned being confused more than once, so for all we know, I misunderstood something important and drew the wrong conclusion from it. If that is what they meant, then you've made your counterargument.

Speaking of your statement, it seems like an unkeyed Metalmind would be limited to producing the A-power or the F-power. For the purpose of discussion while we wait for Pattern and 8bit to respond, what do you think burning an unkeyed would lead to?

[Spoolofwhool Stone Shaman]

15 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I agree with you, but that was only my interpretation of Pattern's logic puzzle. I mentioned being confused more than once, so for all we know, I misunderstood something important and drew the wrong conclusion from it. If that is what they meant, then you've made your counterargument.

Speaking of your statement, it seems like an unkeyed Metalmind would be limited to producing the A-power or the F-power. For the purpose of discussion while we wait for Pattern and 8bit to respond, what do you think burning an unkeyed would lead to?

He's said something similar previously, so you're probably right on your interpretation.

Anyhow, I think it would give the feruchemical attribute. 

[Pattern Lord Prelan]

The Logical puzzle is just logic, using boolean algebra on the statements. "Implies" is not the same as equals. Every statement can take the values "true" and "false".

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I disagree with the idea that you can burn the metal and not gain any power.

My statement is: IF you burn metal AND no power is obtained, THEN it can only be from burning the unkeyed metalmind. This explicitly does not mean, that burning an unkeyed metalmind yields no power! That would be incorrect logic. Even the fact that burning metal has to give some form of power (because the burning is the result of accessing power) does not make the statement untrue: the boolean variable (Burn metal and no power obtained) then has the value (false) and from false anything can be implied.

I see that my try in logical deduction led to more confusion than it helped, sorry for that.

Clarifications for the logic part: "Misting is not burning unkeyed metalmind" means "Misting is burning keyed to self" OR "Misting is burning keyed to another". Ok, I try to write this again with words for better understanding, can't guarantee it will get better. WoBs gives us:

IF a Misting burns a metalmind keyed to himself, THEN he will get Feruchemical Power (A => FP)
IF a Misting burns a metalmind keyed to another, THEN he will get Allomantical Power, the Feruchemical charge is destroyed in the process (C => AP)

I tried to come to a conclusion B => XYZ, but was not successful.

In the next step I used Transposition(logic) (p => q) <=> (!q => !p) [in words: "IF p is true THEN q is true" is equivalent to "IF q is false, THEN p is false"

!(B) = A or C means that the statement "Misting does not burn unkeyed metalmind (AND Misting burns some metalmind, as in assumption)" is the same as the statement "Misting burns metalmind keyed to self (A) OR Misting burns metalmind keyed to another". This implies from WoBs (bold statements): Feruchemical Power is released OR Allomantic Power is released.

Using Transposition on that expression yields the final line.
Addition due to @The One Who Connects answer:

(! B = A OR C  => FP OR AP ) (Transposition) <=> (! (FP OR AP) = !(!B ) = B

(! (FP OR AP) = !FP  AND !AP is obtained via De Morgan's Theorem, !(!B ) = B is double negation.

The last line in words is

IF a misting burns metal (assumtion) AND no power (not FP and not AP) is obtained, THEN the misting burns an unkeyed metalmind. (!AP AND !FP) => B
That however does not say, that this can occur. It is perfectly possible, that burning metal and obtaining no power is impossible (except aluminium gnats, which we excluded).

One could try to deduce something without the assumption that something is burnt at all, but that would probably allow even less conclusions. I hope the "logic puzzle" in words is better comprehendable, though the result is still a non-result. It doesn't allow me to draw the kind of conclusion I wanted to be able to draw. That done,
I claim to have to cognitive power of CONFUSION...more of that can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxes_of_material_implication and related pages ;-)

Meanwhile sitting on the train I dug into VenDell. The kandra are experimenting. If the information VenDell gives is correct, it means that nearly any Northern Scadrian (everybody with a bit of Terris blood) could use an unkeyed metalmind. BAM. That would also include our misting we want to be able to compound. So the burned metal would give the F-power. I leave the credibility of VenDell to you, he is trying to convince Wax to go on a treasure hunt after all and might be exaggerating (though I don't believe he is, just that it could be).

@8bitBob I am fairly certain that our interpretations of Identity are the same or nearly the same. I got the impression that you misunderstood me. @The One Who Connects elaborated my point of view much better than I am able to.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Pattern
Forgot a step

[The One Who Connects Dawnsinger]

16 minutes ago, Pattern said:

using boolean algebra on the statements

I knew it felt like my meager programming knowledge was somehow helping me interpret. Never actually used booleans, so that might be what confused me. I got most of it right at least.

16 minutes ago, Pattern said:

In the next step I used Transposition(logic) (p => q) <=> (!q => !p) [in words: "IF p is true THEN q is true" is equivalent to "IF q is false, THEN p is false"

Except for this line where I was just wrong. Which makes me sad, since I understood somewhat similar logic on the "neither a or b" equals "not a and not b"

Edited March 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Pattern Lord Prelan]

@The One Who Connects No reason to be sad, I forgot to explain that particular line which you understood correctly. Not (A OR B ) is equivalent to (Not A) AND (Not B), according to DeMorgans laws.

 

 

[Spoolofwhool Stone Shaman]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

My statement is: IF you burn metal AND no power is obtained, THEN it can only be from burning the unkeyed metalmind. This explicitly does not mean, that burning an unkeyed metalmind yields no power! 

IF a Misting burns a metalmind keyed to himself, THEN he will get Feruchemical Power (A => FP)
IF a Misting burns a metalmind keyed to another, THEN he will get Allomantical Power, the Feruchemical charge is destroyed in the process (C => AP)

It is perfectly possible, that burning metal and obtaining no power is impossible (except aluminium gnats, which we excluded).

I never said your statement wasn't that, just that I disagree with the possibility of that idea being possible. 

Do you have a source for the fact that burning a keyed metalmind would yield allomantic power versus the inability to burn it at all as was portrayed in TFE?

I'll point out that aluminum gnats do gain power when they burn aluminum, which is what destroys metals and possibly cleanses other investiture-based impurities from them.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects Dawnsinger]

On the subject of Identity with getting the power spiked out of you, what is different about burning your Metalmind to compound vs accessing it normally?

We know that Miles could burn his Metalminds because they "still have a spiritual connection to him" but that the taker might have enough stolen identity to access his Metalminds.

Quote

[–]YataVS 9 points 1 year ago* 

Hi Mister Sanderson, I love your works (thought every of your book take a random time to be translate in Italian) and I can't wait for the next Cosmere books!

1. Could a filled Metalmind [...]

2. If a Ferring creates a Metalmind and then loses his power (for example through Hemalurgy), could he still use his previous-made Metalmind ?

3. Is the way to unlock [...]

[–]mistborn[S] 9 points 1 year ago 

1. Yes, it could. Excellent question.
2. No, he could not. And, unfortunately, the person who stole a bit of his soul would probably be keyed with enough Identity to use his Metalmind. (This is uncertain, though, based on how much of the soul got ripped off, and how much the spike has decayed.)

This not only means that the spiker gains some of his Identity, but that Miles would actually lose some of his Identity in the process. This implies that the remaining connection to his Metalminds might not be Identity, at least in the way we understand it.  What does everybody else in the thread think?

And this is a lesson (to myself mostly) in the value of perusing old AMA's. They make you think.

---

47 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Do you have a source for the fact that burning a keyed metalmind would yield allomantic power versus the inability to burn it at all as was portrayed in TFE?

It's in the WoB that they and 8bit were arguing about.

Quote

INTERVIEW: Jun 20th, 2009

Idaho Falls Signing Report - Andrew the Great

Mistborn Questions:

ANDREW THE GREAT

What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist.

 

[Calderis God Beyond]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

On the subject of Identity with getting the power spiked out of you, what is different about burning your Metalmind to compound vs accessing it normally?

We know that Miles could burn his Metalminds because they "still have a spiritual connection to him" but that the taker might have enough stolen identity to access his Metalminds.

This not only means that the spiker gains some of his Identity, but that Miles would actually lose some of his Identity in the process. This implies that the remaining connection to his Metalminds might not be Identity, at least in the way we understand it.  What does everybody else in the thread think?

I think it reinforces precisely what both @8bitBob and I have been saying. If the Feruchemical ability is spiked out of someone they can no longer use their own metalminds, but miles being a gold misting would still be able to burn the metalminds with enough identity to access the stored charges.

There's 2 possibilities I see actually. 

1. A feruchemically charged price of metal can be burned in the near impossible scenario where you've lost your feruchemical ability, and thus a allomancer should be able to burn an unkeyed metalmind, or

2. These WoB's are in conflict and need clarification. 

[Pattern Lord Prelan]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

1. A feruchemically charged price of metal can be burned in the near impossible scenario where you've lost your feruchemical ability, and thus a allomancer should be able to burn an unkeyed metalmind, or

Change "unkeyed" to "keyed to himself".

An allomancer with a trace of Terris blood is supposed to be able to use an unkeyed metalmind, if VenDell is correct. So being an allomancer this should also allow him to compound since the feruchemical properties are the same as if the metalmind were keyed to himself. He should be able to compound then, except something else prevents this.

This isn't implied by the 2 WoBs we were discussing above though, but by information from BoM - which might come from an unreliable narrator. I would guess though that those theories from VenDell are not so far off, so we all get a teaser for technological advance in the last book of era 2 and in era 3. Southern Medallions probably will give a boost in development of Allotechemy (Allomancy + technology + Feruchemy).

[Calderis God Beyond]

Consider the nature of the Southern Scadrian physiology and the way they use the medallions for warmth. Either every living southerner has Terris blood, or that is not a requirement. 

[Spoolofwhool Stone Shaman]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Consider the nature of the Southern Scadrian physiology and the way they use the medallions for warmth. Either every living southerner has Terris blood, or that is not a requirement. 

The Southern Scadrians were displaced to the south from the North by Rashek, so it's a possibility. 

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

On the subject of Identity with getting the power spiked out of you, what is different about burning your Metalmind to compound vs accessing it normally?

We know that Miles could burn his Metalminds because they "still have a spiritual connection to him" but that the taker might have enough stolen identity to access his Metalminds.

This not only means that the spiker gains some of his Identity, but that Miles would actually lose some of his Identity in the process. This implies that the remaining connection to his Metalminds might not be Identity, at least in the way we understand it.  What does everybody else in the thread think?

And this is a lesson (to myself mostly) in the value of perusing old AMA's. They make you think.

---

It's in the WoB that they and 8bit were arguing about.

 

I see. I don't think Miles effectively loses identity, but more along the lines that spiritual identity is something tied to all parts of the spiritweb, so losing a bit of the spiritweb would always remove a bit of identity, but percent-wise, your amount of identity would remain. That's a bit imprecise, it would be more accurate to say that your spiritual identity is replicated over all parts of your spiritweb equally. As an analogy, imagine identity as a personal barcode. That barcode is copied all over your spiritweb, so when a piece is taken, a copy, or part of a copy, would be taken as well, but it wouldn't actually change your spiritual identity in any way. 

I see that WoB. It's a really weird one honestly, because it goes against what happened in TFE regarding burning an metalmind you didn't make. I'm assuming though that it's referring to a keyed metalmind, since that's well before BoM and the concept of unkeyed metalminds came out. 

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

An allomancer with a trace of Terris blood is supposed to be able to use an unkeyed metalmind, if VenDell is correct. So being an allomancer this should also allow him to compound since the feruchemical properties are the same as if the metalmind were keyed to himself. He should be able to compound then, except something else prevents this.

Sorry, can you run by your reasoning as to why feruchemical power is needed to compound when it sounds like you don't even need to access the feruchemical power to compound?

[Pattern Lord Prelan]

8 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Sorry, can you run by your reasoning as to why feruchemical power is needed to compound when it sounds like you don't even need to access the feruchemical power to compound?

Ok, I interpret this question as why Feruchemical ability is needed to access feruchemical power to compound. Upon thinking about it again, the ability should not be necessary to get f-power out of f-charged, unkeyed metalminds while burning them allomantically.

Compounding, though, I interpret to be a bit more. You get the power out of the metal magnified (somewhere it is said tenfold), use some as you see fit and use the excess to refill another metalmind, so you get basically limitless f-charge. The limiting resource is the availability of the metal. To do this, you need not only be able to get f-power out of the metalmind, but also the ability to fill a metalmind - which is Feruchemical ability. 

This should be possible for anyone with Terris blood, according to VenDell - but again, be careful, he might be exaggerating.

The Southern Medallions consist of a combination of two or even three unkeyed metalminds, one of them I think being an unkeyed nicrosilmind with stored Investiture, giving anyone who wears them the corresponding ability, depending on with what it is filled. I didn't find a really convincing theory (convincing for me) on creating the Medallions and their working mechanism, but what they effectively do seems clear: They grant anyone who wears them one or more feruchemical abilities. So with them, also a southern allomancer (very rare) would be able to compound.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Pattern

[8bitBob Hazekiller]

Aaaand I'm back. There's been quite a bit of discussion while I was gone, so attempting to respond to every point seems futile. I'll just try to pick it up from here.

Incoming wall of text.

15 hours ago, Pattern said:

An allomancer with a trace of Terris blood is supposed to be able to use an unkeyed metalmind, if VenDell is correct. So being an allomancer this should also allow him to compound since the feruchemical properties are the same as if the metalmind were keyed to himself. He should be able to compound then, except something else prevents this.

I think you're reading into this line a bit too much. We know that simply being of Terris blood does not grant you feruchemical abilities by itself because Wax could not tap the unkeyed goldmind in BoM. From the WoB that The One Who Connects provided, we also know that it won't even help you tap your own metalminds if you lose your feruchemy. Keep in mind, Brandon never says that Miles' Identity is changing when he gets spiked, just that the recipient may be keyed enough to access his minds. A perfectly valid interpretation of this is that while Miles' is lessened by the experience, he's not "less Miles'" so to speak.

I agree with Spoolofwhool's interpretation of Identity in relation to getting spiked. They use the analogy of a barcode, but I believe there's an even more compelling example: DNA. Every part of your DNA contains your genetic blueprint. I don't think it's a coincidence that Brandon uses the term Spiritual DNA interchangeably with Spirit Web and Soul. 

This would jive with what we understand about healing. Lopen can heal his arm back because he never accepted the fact that he was disabled, whereas Kaladin and Kelsier think of their scars as part of who they are. Or, to use a more compelling example, if Kaladin immediately had his Identity (and thus self image, or Soul Ideal) changed when he was cut by the Shardblade, how could he heal himself?

Honestly, I think Connection's WoB supports my case fairly well and fits exactly within the theorized mechanics compounding.

Spoiler

If a Ferring creates a metalmind and then loses his power (for example through Hemalurgy), could he still use his previous-made metalmind ?

No, he could not. And, unfortunately, the person who stole a bit of his soul would probably be keyed with enough Identity to use his metalmind. (This is uncertain, though, based on how much of the soul got ripped off, and how much the spike has decayed.)

This makes it clear that you cannot tap your metalminds if your feruchemy is spiked away. No theoretical Identity connection will help you here.

Okay, maybe getting spiked changes your Identity and that's why you can't. I disagree with this entirely, seeing as Lopen went years without an arm and it didn't change how he saw himself, but I'll play along for my next point.

If getting spiked changes your Identity, why can Miles burn his metalminds after getting spiked? Even more compelling, why can the Coinshot still burn his metalmind after losing a spike? He is completely losing the portion of his sDNA (and thus associated Identity) related to being a ferring, yet we have confirmation that this does not change his Identity enough to prevent him from burning his steelmind. I feel completely confident in assuming that spiking does not automatically change your Identity enough to prevent access to your own metalminds.

 

All this talk of Identity connections, spiking changing Identity and allomancy using Identity to "remember" feruchemy to compound is very theoretical, meaning there's nothing directly supporting it's existence, but rather a potential explanation for information we're lacking. While this is possible, I think the more reasonable answer is the one we understand based on the mechanics we have been told, and the situations which have been confirmed to work. For this reason, I am going to exhaustively explain my theory on the mechanics of compounding in an effort to show how well these disparate pieces fit together to explain it.

To start off, rather than speculate, what do we know?

1. The mechanics of compounding as described by Brandon is a function of the mechanics of allomancy. As the allomancer burns the metal, Investiture is pulled from Preservation and filtered through the metal. Feruchemical Investiture present in the metal alters the shape that additional Investiture takes. Relevant WoB:

    

   Spoiler

   INTERVIEW: Jun 20th, 2009

   Idaho Falls Signing Report - Andrew the Great

   MISTBORN QUESTIONS:

   ANDREW THE GREAT

   What would happen if a person were to burn a metal that was Feruchemically charged using Allomancy?

   BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

   The metal used in Allomancy is like a key or a doorway to the power that Allomancy actually uses. The metal acts as a filter, much as the Aons in Elantris do, to determine what the power actually does. However, if the metal is Feruchemically charged, then it will basically become a super-burst of Feruchemical power with no Allomantic effect. The Feruchemical charge acts as a filter as well as the metal, and changes what the power does. in this case, say you were burning steel, you would just be massively speedy for a second, and wouldn't actually have the ability to push on anything Allomantically. Hope that answered the question. I get the concept, so if you need me to explain it differently, let me know and i'll try. Oh, the other thing I forgot is that this concept only works if it's a metal that you charged yourself. If it's a metal someone else charged, it would just work like regular Allomancy, and the Feruchemical charge would just cease to exist

    

2. Ferrings who have their feruchemy spiked away cannot access their metalminds. Relevant WoB
3. You can burn a metalmind with allomancy for feruchemical powers even if you are not currently a feruchemist. Relevant WoB:

    

   Spoiler

   INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

   Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

   KURKISTAN

   If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Uhn... Okay. If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive.

   KURKISTAN

   Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Still has allomancy.

   KURKISTAN

   And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.

   KURKISTAN

   So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

   KURKISTAN

   Was Paalm doing that?

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   That's a RAFO
    
4. Distinct Identities interfere with metalmind access, whether through compounding or tapping. This is shown through the scene with Vin attempting to burn Sazed's metalminds, and basically everything we know about feruchemy.
5. Two feruchemists can both store attributes in the same metalmind, but they do not interact. Relevant WoB:

    

   Spoiler

   INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

   Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

   READERAT2046

   Can a Feruchemist store an attribute in a metalmind that someone else has already stored in and if so, do the charges affect each other in any way?

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Yes, but the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal, and don't really influence one another.
    
6. Unkeyed metalminds can be tapped by anyone with the the power to do so.
7. Spiking someone's feruchemy away, or removing a spike granting feruchemy and Identity, does not change someone's Identity enough to prevent them from compounding their metalminds. Relevant WoB:

    

   Spoiler

   INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

   Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

   KURKISTAN

   If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Uhn... Okay. If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive.

   KURKISTAN

   Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Still has allomancy.

   KURKISTAN

   And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.

   KURKISTAN

   So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

   KURKISTAN

   Was Paalm doing that?

   BRANDON SANDERSON

   That's a RAFO
    

These are the facts as we understand them. Each of these statements is either confirmed in books or in WoB, and I have yet to see anyone refute them. The reason I feel my theory is so compelling is because it requires nothing outside the scope of these facts to work. Let's quickly run through the steps of performing allomancy according to Brandon:

1. Allomancer ingests steel
2. Allomancer draws Investiture from Preservation
3. Allomancer Investiture is filtered through the metal, which shapes the effect of the magic.
4. Allomancer steelpushes. Everyone else gets jealous.

Now let's look at compounding according to WoB:

1. Twinborn ingests their own steelmind
2. Twinborn draws Investiture from Preservation
3. Twinborn Investiture is filtered through the metamind, which is also shaped by the feruchemical Investiture when shaping the magic.
4. Twinborn gets super speed. Everyone else gets even more jealous.

Note, this is exactly the same steps as allomancy. At no point is it stated that the twinborn taps the metalmind during this process. Rather, the Investiture just needs to interact with each other to alter how the magic is shaped. I'm not theorizing here, simply stating the facts as we understand them. 

So let's look at compounding unkeyed metalminds according to my theory:

1. Allomancer ingests an unkeyed steelmind
2. Allomancer draws Investiture from Preservation
3. Allomancer Investiture is filtered through the metamind. Because there is no Identity interference preventing them from mixing, the feruchemical Investiture present in the metalmind also shapes the effect of the magic.
4. Allomancer gets super speed. Everyone goes out to buy medallions because they can't take the jealousy anymore.

It's exactly the same. I use the term Identity interference to describe the phenomenon present throughout feruchemy because it seems applicable. We think of metalminds as something belonging to the feruchemist, but we know from statement 5 that multiple feruchemists can store into the same metal without issue because the Investiture just doesn't mix. Metalminds only "belong" to a feruchemist in as much as their unique Identity prevents their Investiture from interacting with other unique Identities, and it's clear that this concept is not unique to compounding.

 

At this point, the theory should be obvious and simple based on what we know: mistings can burn unkeyed metalminds because there is no interference between unique Identities preventing the Investitures from interacting and shaping the magic.

Really, it's not that mind blowing or out there when you get right down to it. It doesn't require anything theoretical or unknown to work, and it is not directly contradicted by anything we know. Rather, it is simply a logical extension of the mechanics and rules as we understand them, backed up by confirmed evidence, and the underlying mechanics of it satisfies every case of compounding we have discussed so far.

Contrast that with the theory that a connection to your metalminds via Identity is the reason former twinborn can compound, while also being the reason former ferrings can't access their metalminds because getting spiked changes their Identity. The second part contradicts the fact that Miles' can still burn his own goldmind and thus shares an Identity with it, and the first part is predicated on a new ability of Identity which we have no direct evidence of. It feels flimsy because it has potential holes and it is inventing solutions to the problem, rather than applying the mechanics on hand.

Without a completely unambiguous confirmation of either theory (or a completely new one) it is impossible to prove a theory correct, but that does not mean they're equally likely.

Edited March 7, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Spoolofwhool Stone Shaman]

That was a very good write-up.

[LiquidBlue House Lord]

@8bitBob, I consider that a great overview of the current evidence. It is pretty much my own thinking, but with a much greater amount of detail.