Theory: Allomancers can compound feruchemical charges

[LiquidBlue]

The theory is straight forward. An allomancer can burn an unsealed/indentitiless metalmind that corresponds to a metal that they can burn regardless of any feruchemical ability.

In support of this, I point out that Vin could sense Sazed's metalminds as if they were another allomatic reserve, but she was unable to burn them. I think that this was because the metalminds were locked to Sazed's identity. However the unsealed metalminds by the south scandrialians can be used by any one with the ability to use them. This, I believe, includes allomancers.

This means that Wax would be able to burn steel metalminds filled with physical speed,Wayne would be able to burn bendalloy metalminds filled with nutrition. and Marasi would be able to burn cadmium metalminds filled with breath.

This opens up some intriguing possibilities as the medallions and their manufacture spread to the north.

[Weltall]

Unkeyed metalminds still require you to possess the relevant Feruchemical ability in order to get the power out of the thing. The idea is that you still need sDNA that says 'I can use Ability X', the lack of Identity just means that you don't have to be the Feruchemist who stored the trait in the first place. Nothing we know about Identity (admitedly, not much) gives us reason to assume that burning a bit of Invested metal Allomantically would magically (har har) give you the sDNA needed to tap it Feruchemically if you don't already have it.

[LiquidBlue]

Welltall, I  can see where you are coming from. We have only ever seen feruchemists and ferrings have the ability to use or burn metalminds; and perhaps only they are able to properly process the feruchemical traits released by allomatically burning a metalmind. However, I still think that this theory may prove valid.

When a metal is burned, the feruchemical traits released are not coming from tapping metalmind charges, but because the feruchemical charges overwrite the normal allomatic effect of the metal. It is allomancy, but with a non-standard effect.

I suggest that the ability to tap the metalmind is not a requirement to burn it, if the the feruchemical charge is not locked to a particular individual.

In the case of the unsealed metal mind, the feruchemical charge is simply overwritting the normal allomatic effect and there is no identity lock to prevent it from being burned.

Edited March 5, 2017 by LiquidBlue
clarity

[+Extesian]

I feel like it's not the case but I'm too tired to give a sub-standard answer to an interesting theory.

One think I will note though is the true benefit of compounding is that you can burn the metalmind to get an increased benefit (10x I believe?) but then you can use your feruchemy to take that extra investiture and fill your metalminds again, the cycle continues and you have almost unlimited access. But if you can only burn it and not fill more yourself, and somebody else has to fill them for you, you lose that efficency and need armies of feruchemists to keep filling the metal minds and giving them to you to burn.

[8bitBob]

I have answers to this!

I theorized the same thing a while back, and there's actually some WoB evidence.

 

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

KURKISTAN

If you spiked out Miles' Feruchemical gold, would he be able to burn his Allomantic reserves [read: Feruchemical reserves using Allomancy] and heal it back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhn... Okay. If you spiked out his ability to heal gold and somehow left him alive.

KURKISTAN

Yeah, but still having Allomancy.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Still has allomancy.

KURKISTAN

And he’s like in the middle of burning a goldmind.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him.

KURKISTAN

So if you're a Coinshot and you get [spiked] to have Feruchemical steel, and then you lose the spike after making a store, you can still Compound that for speed?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes... Yeah, that should still work.

KURKISTAN

Was Paalm doing that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a RAFO

 

This tells us two things. One, you can heal back abilities after being spiked, which is fascinating, but irrelevant. Two, a clear confirmation that an allomancer can burn a metalmind for feruchemical abilities without the sDNA required to do so.

Keep in mind, this was before BoM, so he wouldn't just say "Yeah, that would totally work because it's the same Identity," which is another way of saying spiritual connection. It could still turn out that there's some thing we don't know that could make this not work in general, but that's compelling enough to not dismiss it out of hand.

Edited March 5, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Calderis]

I totally think this will work and I'm going to go on a bit of a tangent to explain. 

What if a feruchemists ability only gives them the ability to store an attribute. Because of the Identity block associated with the investiture only they can tap it.

This would actually make the southern Scadrian medallions make more sense because they aren't actually granting a feruchemical ability. They are only storing the unkeyed investiture, which, without an identity block anyone can tap.

Its why as a Mistborn, Vin could sense Sazed's metalmind. She inherently had the ability to burn the metal she was given but the identity block kept her from touching it.

It only takes a small bit of feruchemical charge to change the "shape of the nozel" but to an allomancer, your still burning a metal. If unkeyed metalminds became mass produced for this purpose, they'd be able to be made in a few seconds.

A gold misting could buy a nugget that had barely been stored in, and have a fairly massive amount of healing. 

This would change the very nature of allomancy as we know it. 

Edit:Reading through the thread again I realize I'm basically just repeating the OP in different words, but I still think it's worth repeating. If this is true, and for some reason I think it is it means that feruchemical ability functions differently than we've assumed. It's implications for the future books, through both the medallions, and more widely available compounding is just mind blowing to me. I almost dropped my phone because I got so excited after it all clicked in my brain.

Edit 2:it's late, and I realized everyone on the skimmer stored weight. Totally wrong on the medallions. Oh well 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Calderis
Clarification

[Pattern]

The WoB above is not quite appliable to the theory in the beginning. The described scenario in the WoB has a filled metalmind with identity(connection) attached to the user who burns it. So Miles would be able to use the stored healing because it is still connected to him. If he were burning a goldmind without his identity (connection to him), it could be that he would be able to use the charge, or not. We just don't know.

Actually, there are some hacks to feruchemy, allomancy, hemalurgy and compounding out there, which were probably not intended the way they turned out to be, making the combinations very (too) powerful. I am really curious how Brandon will fix that with some limitations in future books, since all powerful magics are not really his thing (refering to his writing classes at BYU). There still is room for this, since we got a lot of information from more or less unreliable narrators with incomplete knowledge of the magic system and WoBs are not 100% canon either, until they are written in a released book.

In this frame of reference, I would bet on the theory above is not working, since it would make the magic too powerful. So I guess, an allomancer burning his metal with an unlocked feruchemical charge will just get the same as an allomancer burning that metal without charge, as long as he doen't own the feruchemical abitily as well. Wearing a medallion might change that though, since all passengers on the skimmer were able to store weight, regardless of allomantic/feruchemical abilities.

[8bitBob]

3 minutes ago, Pattern said:

The WoB above is not quite appliable to the theory in the beginning. The described scenario in the WoB has a filled metalmind with identity(connection) attached to the user who burns it. So Miles would be able to use the stored healing because it is still connected to him. If he were burning a goldmind without his identity (connection to him), it could be that he would be able to use the charge, or not. We just don't know.

It's not a perfect match, but it does state with certainty that you do not need to be a feruchemist to gain feruchemical abilities with allomancy. Knowing what we do about Identity and unkeyed metalminds post BoM, I don't think it's a stretch to think this theory is pretty plausible.

7 minutes ago, Pattern said:

In this frame of reference, I would bet on the theory above is not working, since it would make the magic too powerful.

I don't actually believe this form of compounding is that powerful when compared to other abilities we've seen on Scadrial. As was mentioned earlier, probably the most valuable aspect of traditional compounding is creating infinite metalminds, which this cannot do. It also requires multiple feruchemical abilities to unkey the metalminds to begin with, so why not just make medallions at that point? Or maybe a Trueself Twinborn burning other people's metalminds that correspond with their allomancy, which, while powerful, would still be far less powerful than a traditional compounder.

[Spoolofwhool]

This theory is very plausible, and I see no reason why an allomancer wouldn't be able to burn and compound the charge of an appropriate unkeyed metalmind. The only issue however is that doing so is inefficient. Part of the reason why compounding is so powerful is that the twinborn can use their feruchemical powers to store the generated charge, resulting in rapid attribute storage compared to a normal feruchemist. Without the ability to store, the allomancer would just receive a massive attribute burst which would then fade. 

[8bitBob]

36 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Without the ability to store, the allomancer would just receive a massive attribute burst which would then fade. 

While I agree, I've been think it over and it may still have some uses. We don't know how compounding works exactly, so it could be that mistings could burn a metalmind for some time, like regular metal reserves. If that were the case, you could do some pretty interesting things.

To take the archetypal example of Steel, you could produce a large quantity of unkeyed metalminds through compounding and distribute them to all of your Coinshots. You've now turned one of the most common mistings into one of the rarest ferrings, and a twinborn to boot. Inefficient? Sure, but undeniably useful, and it does not require rare and expensive Nicrosil.

If you want to get even more meta, it could also be used to get around the limitations of how many metalborn powers you can obtain at one time. Southerner medallions are said to be limited to a maximum of three abilities, but if you give them three allomatic abilities, you're effectively giving them six. Assuming a natural Twinborn with two allomatic spikes (max according to Suit) you could get 13/16 of the way to a Fullborn. Disregarding God metals, that is.

This is assuming that allomancers burn metalminds like regular metals of course, but I feel like this isn't that unlikely. WoB says that compounding works because burning the metalmind alters what form the magic takes, not how the allomancer burns metals.

I'm mostly just kind of throwing this idea out there as it comes to me, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless.

[Spoolofwhool]

Well yes, I didn't say it was useless, I just said it was inefficient because it takes away one of the greatest facets of feruchemy: the power to control the amount of attribute tapped. You are correct, they wouldn't gain the entire metalmind charge compounded at once, though I guess I did imply that, but the compounded charge over the burn time of the metal, presumably at a constant amount. 

 

[8bitBob]

2 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Well yes, I didn't say it was useless, I just said it was inefficient because it takes away one of the greatest facets of feruchemy: the power to control the amount of attribute tapped. You are correct, they wouldn't gain the entire metalmind charge compounded at once, though I guess I did imply that, but the compounded charge over the burn time of the metal, presumably at a constant amount. 

Sorry, wasn't really disagreeing with anything you said, just responding to your post as it made me think about how I'd kind of written the ability off in my previous post.

In retrospect, this does seem kind of powerful. Makes me really wish had more concrete info on burn rates and such.

[LiquidBlue]

10 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

I have answers to this!

I theorized the same thing a while back, and there's actually some WoB evidence.

 

 

This tells us two things. One, you can heal back abilities after being spiked, which is fascinating, but irrelevant. Two, a clear confirmation that an allomancer can burn a metalmind for feruchemical abilities without the sDNA required to do so.

 

Thanks for the WOB. Although the situation isn't exactly the same, I feel that it is pretty convincing.

Allomancers being being able to burn unlocked metal minds really isn't overpowering. They are many orders of magnitude less powerful than a compounding twin-born. It just means that instead of a single allomatic effect, misting are able to produce two allomatic effects. The second of which requires a resource many times harder to obtain than regular metal.

The gnats still kind of lose out. I don't know if it is possible to produce an unsealed identity metalmind. Does it even make sense? While every other misting gets a second allomatic power, the poor aluminum gnat is likely the only one for which an unsealed metalmind is impossible.

The duraluminium gnat is in only a slightly better situation. Unkeyed connection can be useful, but not terribly flashy (Perhaps a duraluminium gnat on Sel with connection metalminds might actually be fairly powerful if a duralumin flare of connection allows access to the local magic systems)

 

[Pattern]

Actually, if above theory is correct, any misting could become a compounding twinborn with the right medallion. The compounded feruchemical charge can be stored in an unkeyed medallion, which could be disassembled to burn the metal with charge again. It's a bit clumsy but with industrial mass production in mind, that procedure could become easy and common knowledge.

The only limitation here is the availability of the metals - which should become much scarcer after a while. Wars for resources come to my mind and are not unheard of - just to speculate a bit more.

But still, the mechanism of allomantically burning feruchemically charged unkeyed metals could still just have the same effect as burning normal metal, since the spiritual connection to the charge would be missing. The charge would be there but could not be used since the feruchemical ability is missing. I need to look up some WoBs on compounding, but if i recall correctly, burning a metalmind releases only the f. charge tenfold. So the poor misting burning an unkeyed metalmind wouldn't even sense the f charge since he is no feruchemist AND he would not get any allomantic power. Could be he gets nothing but an angry stomach...

Oh one thing to that WoB: It is in regard to a very special hypothetical situation where the f charged metal is burned after the f ability has been spiked out hemalurgically (and the former twinborn still lives) He would be able to burn the gold charged with his own health to heal himself - because the charge has still connection to him. The connection is the reason for this to work. An unkeyed metalmind lacks exactly this connection so it would be useless in that special situation. Spitual connection then would have not been neccessary to explain the possible healing.

Edit 2: I would not equate spiritual connection with identity. Even if someone fills an unkeyed metalmind (while storing his identity in another one) there still could be a Connection to that charge. It would just be usable by anyone. Doesn't matter that the WoB is pre BoM, Brandon had his magic ready, probably before the release of The Final Empire.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Pattern

[Calderis]

I think the WoB about Miles is very relevant. The fact that Miles would be able to burn a charge that is keyed to him after his feruchemical ability has been removed implies that the the ability to "compound" in this instance is the charge in the metal. He no longer has any ability other than allomantic gold. 

If feruchemical ability and a spiritual link to the charge is required, than why would Vin even be able to sense The charge in Sazed's metalmind? If the charge were unkeyed, and she were still unable to access it without the prerequisite feruchemical ability, why is she even aware it exists?

In the example of Miles, having lost his Feruchemical ability, the charge being keyed to him shouldn't matter at all, unless all that is required is the ability to burn gold. If more than identity is involved, any spiritual link in the charge would have been tied to the portion of his sDNA that was ripped out. How can a spiritual link exist to a part of his spirit web that he no longer has? 

[The One Who Connects]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

If Feruchemical ability and a spiritual link to the charge is required, than why would Vin even be able to sense The charge in Sazed's Metalmind? If the charge were unkeyed, and she were still unable to access it without the prerequisite Feruchemical ability, why is she even aware it exists?

In the example of Miles, having lost his Feruchemical ability, the charge being keyed to him shouldn't matter at all, unless all that is required is the ability to burn gold. If more than identity is involved, any spiritual link in the charge would have been tied to the portion of his sDNA that was ripped out. How can a spiritual link exist to a part of his spirit web that he no longer has? 

Vin can sense the power because of the Investiture stored in the Metalmind. She senses power, but has no connection to it. Miles still has a connection to it, since Metalminds are keyed via Connection to your Spiritweb and to your Identity. Connection seems like the spiritual link in this instance. Your Spiritweb is connected to you via sDNA. Your Identity is another kind of connection (Note: I realized after typing this that I strayed into the MAG portion of F-Aluminum's coppermind page) Tapping Identity makes you less susceptible to manipulation and reinforces deeply held convictions, which implies to me that it increases your connection to who you really are and what you believe, while Connection as a unique power alters your connections to places and other people.

Meaning that Miles should still have at least one type of connection to his Metalminds

[8bitBob]

6 hours ago, Pattern said:

An unkeyed metalmind lacks exactly this connection so it would be useless in that special situation. Spitual connection then would have not been neccessary to explain the possible healing.

Edit 2: I would not equate spiritual connection with identity. Even if someone fills an unkeyed metalmind (while storing his identity in another one) there still could be a Connection to that charge. It would just be usable by anyone. Doesn't matter that the WoB is pre BoM, Brandon had his magic ready, probably before the release of The Final Empire.

Relevant BoM passage:

Quote

“The raw power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy,” VenDell said, “is something we call Investiture. This is very important, as in Feruchemy, an individual’s Investiture is keyed specifically to them. To what we call Identity.”

“You’ve made me curious,” Wax said, looking at the wall as VenDell leisurely walked back to his machine. “How does it know? My metalminds … do they recognize me?”

“After a fashion,” VenDell said, changing the image to one of a Feruchemist tapping strength. The woman’s muscles had grown to several times their normal size as she lifted a horse above her head. “Each man or woman has a Spiritual aspect, a piece of themselves that exists in another Realm entirely. You might call it your soul. Your Investiture is keyed to your soul—indeed, it might be a part of your soul, much as your blood is a part of your body.”

“So if a person could store their Identity,” Marasi said, “as Waxillium does with his weight…”

“They’d be without it for a time,” VenDell said. “A blank slate, so to speak.”

Bolded the relevant portions. This passage states that Investiture is keyed to Identity, which is connected to their Spiritual aspect. Identity is clearly considered the determining attribute for connection to one's Spiritual aspect. The reason I mentioned the WoB was pre BoM is not because Brandon didn't understand how it worked, but because he would not explain how it works and spoil all the fun reveals, which is why he didn't mention Identity. VenDell is pretty helpful in explaining it to us here though.

Also, I think you guys are misinterpreting Connection, which has to do with external connections to things like people or places. We've seen no indication in the books or anywhere else that I am aware of to say otherwise. I can see why magic could be considered messing with Identity when it tricks the universe into thinking you're from somewhere else and can speak the language, but you're still essentially the same person in that scenario.

Edited March 6, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Calderis]

And unkeyed metalminds have the connection to who stored (identity) removed. Connection should play no part as the investiture involved has nothing to do with other people or places. Otherwise an unkeyed mind would need both identity and connection stored when made to be usable. 

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

Also, I think you guys are misinterpreting Connection, which has to do with external connections to things like people or places. We've seen no indication in the books or anywhere else that I am aware of to say otherwise.

I am not talking about Connection as a power, which does do what you describe. I am talking about the Spiritual Realm itself, which is built upon connections. Kelsier sees it through Preservation, seeing how Preservation is connected to everything via ribbons of flowing light, and Ruin via black tendrils. Quoth Kelsier:

Quote

"I saw everything. Everyone, everything. My Connection to them, and.. and..." Spreading into the future, he thought.

Life experiences help shape who you are, so in a way, your Connections to the past shape your Identity now. Anything that you have an association with in the Physical, you have a connection with in the Spiritual. Your friends, your experiences, your powers, all of it. The whole of creation is a collection of Connections.

[8bitBob]

I'm not sure I understand your point then. Why would this non power based Connection be more relevant than Identity for Miles? He still shares an Identity with his goldminds.

[Calderis]

I don't disagree with you on the nature of the spiritual realm. I do disagree that it effects the ability to use a magic in the physical realm. The ability to burn one of these metalminds is governed solely by the laws of the magic itself. An outside variable would be consistent across the board, causing unkeyed metalminds to be subject to the same rule being applied here. For Miles to be able to burn his metalminds after losing his Feruchemical ability would need to have a specific in system reason that doesn't apply to unkeyed metalminds, or they should be allomantically viable. 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Calderis

[Pattern]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

If feruchemical ability and a spiritual link to the charge is required, than why would Vin even be able to sense The charge in Sazed's metalmind? If the charge were unkeyed, and she were still unable to access it without the prerequisite feruchemical ability, why is she even aware it exists?

In the example of Miles, having lost his Feruchemical ability, the charge being keyed to him shouldn't matter at all, unless all that is required is the ability to burn gold. If more than identity is involved, any spiritual link in the charge would have been tied to the portion of his sDNA that was ripped out. How can a spiritual link exist to a part of his spirit web that he no longer has? 

1.)  Vin is able to sense the charges just from the fact that she can push on the metalminds only with difficulty, since they are filled with Investiture. And anything filled with Investiture is hard to influence.

2.) I don't think that is how spiritual links work at all. In the spiritual realm Miles would still be in his perfect state without damage - compare with healing of shardblade wounds. The healing itself is a cognitive process while the blueprint to be healed from is found in the spirit web in the spiritual realm. IIrc, someone who is killed with Hemalurgy stays only for a very short time in Shadesmar, but his soul in the Spiritual Realm will be whole. (Will edit this post later after some WoB research)

Relevant WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Kurkistan

So you've said that healing is like the spiritual wants to heal and then it filters through the Cognitive, but how's that work with healing wounds to the soul like Hemalurgy or Shardblades? What do you refer to to heal the soul at that point?

Brandon Sanderson

You need to make a patch on the soul with investiture.

Kurkistan

So how's the investiture know where to go, what to look like?

Brandon Sanderson

Well your soul is an ideal. So if you can get it up there, there are ways to do- to recreate that with um- see I'm getting into stuff for later books.

Argent

No, that’s okay.

Kurkistan

So when Hemalurgy rips something off the soul, is that the ideal soul or some sub-soul?

Brandon Sanderson

That is off of your soul, and it can be healed; but what it's going to be doing is creating a patch of new soul. So it will not be your original soul. Does that make sense?

Kurkistan

Okay, that- well, not completely, but I think that's your intention.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Store Employee

If you do that, is that like Frankenstein's monster, or is it like a graft that's absorb-

Brandon Sanderson

Less horrifying- Less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster, but it is a graft that is like- it is not your original soul.

Store Employee

Yeah, but in modern medicine stuff like that is absorbed-

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah; in this you will always have a scar on your soul that something else has patched over.

Kurkistan

So Kaladin shouldn't just keep getting his arm chopped?

Brandon Sanderson

[ignoring/not-hearing Kurkistan just now] But that is what happens with most forms of investiture in the first place.

This is not the one I was looking for - that one would imply that a connection could be ripped away and the healing is just a new patch.

Spoiler

Interview: Feb 17th, 2016

Calamity-Seattle

Question

When you are burning a Compounded metal are you getting the metal’s effect and the stored power?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so when you are Compounding--

Question

Can you explain, I’m unclear on the Compounding.

Brandon Sanderson

Compounding is a way to hack the magic system so you can get a Feruchemical attribute out of-- basically powering Feruchemy with Allomancy. If that makes sense.

Question

So you’re not actually burning the metalmind?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of? There’s a big explanation on Reddit, if you send me an email I can link you to it, that steps you through exactly, easier than explaining it here.

Will have to find the explanation on Reddit...later

Edited March 6, 2017 by Pattern

[8bitBob]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

1.)  Vin is able to sense the charges just from the fact that she can push on the metalminds only with difficulty, since they are filled with Investiture. And anything filled with Investiture is hard to influence.

I believe you are misunderstanding which scene he's talking about. Unless I am wrong, he's referring to the scene wear Vin burns one of Sazed's metalminds and can detect the Investiture, but cannot access it. She burns the metal like any other standard reserve.

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

2.) I don't think that is how spiritual links work at all. In the spiritual realm Miles would still be in his perfect state without damage - compare with healing of shardblade wounds. The healing itself is a cognitive process while the blueprint to be healed from is found in the spirit web in the spiritual realm. IIrc, someone who is killed with Hemalurgy stays only for a very short time in Shadesmar, but his soul in the Spiritual Realm will be whole. (Will edit this post later after some WoB research)

There's a whole lot of rampant speculating going on here, but I believe you're thinking about this backwards. From what I can tell, the template of how you heal is based on Identity and maybe other Cognitive aspects, while the injury is to the Spirit. Relevant WoB:

 

Quote

INTERVIEW: Mar 22nd, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Argent (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Why can Stormlight heal Lopen's arm, but can't heal Kaladin's scars?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because a lot of the healing in the cosmere works on principles of expectation and how you envision yourself.

QUESTION

So Kaladin has accepted the scars.

BRANDON SANDERSON

And Lopen never accepted the one arm. It's one of these ties when I built the magic systems that I wanted certain threads to run through them, so when I eventually have them being used in the same books, there will be consistency among them, so they won't feel like everything's just thrown together. So, the intention and expectation, for instance, in Warbreaker. What you want to have happen, the expectation, the way you are thinking about things, all that influences what actually happens. Very important for most of the cosmere magics.

 

This tells us that how you heal is based on how you see yourself, which sounds a whole lot like Identity to me, and there are other WoBs that say most Investiture based healing works on similar principals. There's further evidence of this being a Cognitive related issue because Kelsier still has his scars while just being a Cognitive Shadow in Secret History. In addition, we know without a doubt that hemalurgy rips away a piece of your soul when you're spiked, so I don't understand the position that your soul is somehow whole. Is it because you're confusing Kind of Dead, where Kelsier was hanging out, and Definitely Dead, which is where Vin went? We have a WoB on that too:

 

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Jan 5th, 2015

Firefight Signing Report - Lady Radagu (Verbatim)

LADY RADAGU

Does being the donor of a Hemalurgic spike have any implications for your afterlife? Or how about the recipient?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Um, that is actually going to depend on... Okay, yes, it has implications for the afterlife. Yes. Yes.

LADY RADAGU

Okay, so are there a bunch of Scadrian souls wandering the afterlife with holes in their personalities or memory or identity? Some with extra parts tacked on?

BRANDON SANDERSON

So, it has implications, but they're not exactly the ones that you're assuming. In the Cosmere, there is dead, and mostly dead, okay? And this has been shown several times. So, once someone dies, there is a period before they transition. Right? Sazed talks about this in Mistborn 3 and so most of the implications are before transition. Does that makes sense? Post transition, you're going to have to ask the philosophers, and the theologians, who are the ones that, that talk about the.. that. So there's an afterlife, and there's an after-afterlife. Not as many implications for the after-afterlife. Middle? Yes.

 

Spoiler

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2016

Herald Washington Library Center-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

When someone is Spiked, and dies, does that affect the time they spend in the Cognitive?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, because if you’re extra Invested, which Spiking technically does, if you have a Spike stapling a bit of someone else’s soul to yours--

QUESTION

The other way. Someone Spikes into you--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ohhhhh, oh okay, no, that might make you go faster.

QUESTION

Is that why Harmony doesn’t know who’s Spiking people?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hmm. Yeah. I had not considered that. But yeah, sure. Suuureee. You added to the canon. I mean, the actual answer was, when you’re Spiking somebody, you’re ripping of the soul, so kind of, there’s not enough left to talk. I mean, you’re ripping off the soul, so it’s a bad thing. A really bad thing. So you go ‘who killed you’ and it’s just somebody who… But yes, they would go faster too.

 

So yeah, being spiked doesn't matter much in the After-Afterlife, but it definitely does in the Before-Afterlife, and I don't think that the After-Afterlife is simply the Spiritual Realm. Sazed would know more about it if that were the case (remember that Perpendicularities merge the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual Realms) and you stay in the Cognitive realm for different times because you're more/less Invested.

We're getting into some pretty out there theorizing at this point though, and I feel it's complicating what is actually fairly understood as far as realmatics go. Why would Miles need some hitherto unknown connection to his metalminds to burn them instead of Identity being the connection? Why would the damage be to his Cognitive aspect when it tears off a piece of soul? Why would the soul be undamaged when everything we've learned about hemalurgy is soul related? Why would Miles still have this previously unknown metalmind soul connection if his ferumancy was spiked out? Why can anyone use unkeyed metalminds if there's another connection needed?

In an effort to explain why the theory wouldn't work, this raises a whole host of much more difficult to reconcile questions.

Edited March 6, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Pattern]

Ah nice, you found some of the WoBs I was looking for and couldn't find. Summarizing: Spikes steal part of the soul. Damage can be healed by patches of Investiture (which is not so different from gaining abilities, where Investiture leaks into holes in the soul). My recollection of the soul staying unharmed in the SR as a blueprint could not be confirmed. If and how you heal (with healing ability) is a matter of how you contemplate yourself to be whole, so it's a cognitive thing. Its not the same as the spiritual Identity, though the concept is similar. Your Identity should stay the same, whatever happes to you (except you're storing Identity in a metal mind - that redirects it), while your Cognitive Self is how you think of yourself, if that makes sense.

What we asked was whether an allomancer can use the released feruchemical charge while burning an unkeyed metalmind. The Miles scenario was answered with "Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." Here a keyed metalmind was used, stored with Miles health. Miles is missing sDNA corresponding to his f-gold, but he is still "Miles" and thinks of himself as this. Also the spiritual Identity of Miles should not have changed just because he lost part of his soul. The ideal is still the same. So the charge being burned recognizes him as the rightful owner and heals him, patching his sDNA back with a new part of soul - because that is the way he sees himself as healthy and his stored health flows there where it belongs (in the scenario Miles was even burning f-gold while being spiked, so the process of releasing health was ongoing and didn't have to be started without feruchemical abilities). It's an interesting scenario in itself, but the more I think about it, the less appliable it is to our original theory. It's an example of quite the opposite we are theorizing about.

The point is, a misting without being a twinborn, would not have the feruchemical ability granted by an unkeyed charge. Not anyone can use unkeyed metalminds, but any fering with that metal or a feruchemist (who are really rare in era 2). Thats's the idea of compounding: You fuel feruchemy with allomancy. You need to have the feruchemical power to do this. Identity just keys stored powers to the person having stored it, more or less a protection from theft. You can create unkeyed metalminds on purpose, they can be used by any feruchemist, but they don't grant feruchemical abilities by themselves. To achieve this, you would need to use Southern Medallions or the BoM, granting the ability temporarily.

About Vin: You're right, I hadn't that particular scene in mind. This scene still does not imply that Vin would have been able to use the Investiture (I really have to search the books, unfortunately not as ebook...) if it were unkeyed. But, if she burns it as a normal allomantic metal, it shows us that you would at least get the allomantic effect when burning an unkeyed metalmind and not just a puff of hot air.

 

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

For Miles to be able to burn his metalminds after losing his Feruchemical ability would need to have a specific in system reason that doesn't apply to unkeyed metalminds, or they should be allomantically viable. 

The in-system reason is that Miles metalminds were filled with and keyed to him via his Identity, the charge recognising Miles while it was released. The burning was already on while Miles was being spiked, so the keyed health  could flow back to where it belonged. This would not apply to unkeyed metalminds.

Unclear is, if the burning being in progress while Miles is spiked (in that hypothetical scenario) is relevant or not.

In the Alloy of Law, Miles also allomantically burns gold. Either he has uncharged metal or he is able to select which kind of power he gets from burning gold. Again, have to look up some more about compounding...

Edited March 6, 2017 by Pattern

[8bitBob]

6 minutes ago, Pattern said:

What we asked was whether an allomancer can use the released feruchemical charge while burning an unkeyed metalmind. The Miles scenario was answered with "Yes, that would still work. It'd still have a Spiritual connection to him." Here a keyed metalmind was used, stored with Miles health. Miles is missing sDNA corresponding to his f-gold, but he is still "Miles" and thinks of himself as this. Also the spiritual Identity of Miles should not have changed just because he lost part of his soul. The ideal is still the same. So the charge being burned recognizes him as the rightful owner and heals him, patching his sDNA back with a new part of soul - because that is the way he sees himself as healthy and his stored health flows there where it belongs (in the scenario Miles was even burning f-gold while being spiked, so the process of releasing health was ongoing and didn't have to be started without feruchemical abilities). It's an interesting scenario in itself, but the more I think about it, the less appliable it is to our original theory. It's an example of quite the opposite we are theorizing about.

You're conflating two separate things here: the mechanics of healing and compounding. They may have related components, but they're not the same. Let's use the other example of Steel, which was also confirmed to work, so as to divorce the two.

After the spike is removed, it is confirmed that the Coinshot can still burn the metalmind for speed. At this point he completely lacks the ferring sDNA and will not be getting it back, but is still able to use their allomancy for ferumancy. How do you explain this? You're treating Spiritual Identity as some sort of enabler for ferumancy, but it's really more of a doorman choosing who gets in. Having the right Identity does not make the Coinshot a Steelrunner.

This is explicit confirmation that you do not require feruchemical powers to burn a metalmind. I do not see how that is not related to the theory at hand.