2017-03-24/25: Germany - Leipzig Book Fair [Minor Cosmere Spoilers]

[The One Who Connects]

40 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

1) We've been told that metalminds have a point where they're "full," but could a strong Feruchemist fill a metalmind with more of an attribute than a weak Feruchemist?

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This is my attempt to figure out how objects can be "full" of Investiture, yet something like Nightblood can be way more Invested than something like the Bands of Mourning. It would be similar to compressing air in a container to store it, and how you need to generate more force to fill it as time goes on to put in the same amount of air.  If strength comes in to play, then it has implications for all sorts of magic, like why you need to achieve specific Hightenings before you can Awaken something like Nightblood. If strength does not come into play, then it tells us that there's something else required to Invest something so heavily.

 

Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

Night blood seems like a "special case" in several facets, but given that both Nightblood and Shardblades are "too full to be used as H-Spikes" Metalminds should have a hard fill cap.

Anyway, I highly doubt you actually need the 9th Heightening to create Nightblood esque objects. Vasher's fear of an army wielding them is quite illogical if it physically required someone to attain (and maintain) at least that many breaths in order to make them.

Most likely it functions just like the 6th Heightening: instinctive understanding of basic commands doesn't mean "must be here to understand the commands" it means you can forgo trial and error. 9th lets you learn the commands for awakening Steel, but why would going under the 9th make them no longer work? After all, Commands are the focus here, not the Breath, so breath level shouldn't have the authority to override knowing the words.

 

[8bitBob]

This is unfortunately not the best place to discuss this, what with the need of spoiler tags, but I'll respond a bit here.

Spoiler

Anyway, I highly doubt you actually need the 9th Heightening to create Nightblood esque objects. Vasher's fear of an army wielding them is quite illogical if it physically required someone to attain (and maintain) at least that many breaths in order to make them.

Spoiler

While it is possible that we're being mislead, or that people are mistaken, this goes against what we've been told. Commands are not the only effects granted by Hightenings. In fact, they are one of the less common ones, with others granting tangential effects like Perfect Pitch or Agelessness due to the massive amount of Investiture you're filled with, which are lost if you go below that Hightening. There's no reason to disbelieve that awakening steel and stone is not one of these effects, though I admit that it is possible.

Similar to how a stronger Allomancer can push on Invested metals while a weak one cannot, it could be that you simply cannot achieve Greater Awakenings without the requisite Hightening. Even with an investment of 20,000 Breaths as your "start up cost," you would still be able to make Nightbloods every 1000 Breaths. Seeing as Nightblood is being played up as this Honorblade level threat, that is a pretty big deal, seeing as the God King could make 30 of them by that count.

As for being "too full," the full quote is actually more compelling: "Yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full." Specifically, it gives wiggle room on what is actually "full" or not by saying that it can be argued. To go back to my air pressure metaphor, it could be that Hemalurgy doesn't generate enough force to stuff more air into the already filled container.

This is why I'm seeking information on whether or not "full" is a looser term than we've come to believe, similar to how "you cannot push on metals inside someone's body" turned out to be only a partial answer for standard use cases

Edited March 23, 2017 by 8bitBob

[ZoneZero]

Ah man, I'm sad that I'll be missing Brandon by one day - I will be there on Sunday :(.

[AeonaRin]

Hey, guys, I have some questions I didn't have an opportunity to ask during Warsaw signing. If you, or your friends, or people on facebook event, or something, have no ideas for questions, you can use some of mine (I'm especially Dying to know about Ashyn).

General Cosmere

1.  Can you bind a cognitive shadow with someone else’s body? probably RAFO

2. Is Nightblood an example of another end-negative investiture?
3. Is the Evil on Threnody the same kind of wild Investiture that is present in Cognitive Realm on Sel?
4.  Has Cultivation Invested in Ashyn? 
5. Are people of Roshar actually from Ashyn? (Is Ashyn Tranquiline Halls?) I know, probably RAFO. 

Technical Roshar

1. Can the surge of Progression be used as precisely as to grow new synapses and therefore learn faster?
2.  Does the Surge of Division allow to split an atom?
3. What are practical differences between Cohesion and Tension? Because from the physics point of view you can achieve the same results with both – increasing cohesion in a piece of say, leather, that is making intermolecular force pull the particles in stronger, would effect in that leather being stiffer or even unbreakable, just as simply increasing the tension of the material.  

Is there a local forum/facebook group/fansite in Germany? If there is, I really advise to get organized with non-sharders too, It was very helpful in Poland to gather WoBs this way  

Anyways, have fun! 

[Argent]

4 minutes ago, strumienpola said:

Is Nightblood an example of another end-negative investiture?

The term "end-negative" applies to magic systems, and Nightblood is not one. The question, as I see it, is not entirely invalid, but I suspect if Brandon were to answer, he would use of his response to clarify what end-negative means.

I do like your Roshar questions a lot though.

[mr42]

5 minutes ago, strumienpola said:

Is there a local forum/facebook group/fansite in Germany? If there is, I really advise to get organized with non-sharders too, It was very helpful in Poland to gather WoBs this way  

As far as I know there is nothing like that in Germany. Seems like we have not many 17th Sharders here. 

Anyways, I think I'll write down a list of questions mentioned in this thread tomorrow. We'll see how many we can ask

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

(I too am very curious to hear if there's any Cultivation/Ashyn connection, as I believe she's the most likely to have Invested there, given what we know of the magic system. Ever since that WoB where he said Shards do design their magic systems, they just have to work within certain parameters like fitting Surgebinding on Roshar to work with what Adonalsium had already established there, I've been pretty convinced. I can't imagine anyway a magic system designed to cultivate certain powers via different strains of bacteria/disease isn't born of Cultivation's Investiture).

[+Extesian]

Good questions @strumienpola. I agree with Argent, Nightblood is one system hacked to imitate another rather than its own system. We know there is only one negative system other than hemalurgy and we've seen only minor hints of it, my money is still on voidbinding.

I'd be surprised if Cultivation is invested in Ashyn as we as good as know her Shardpool is in the Horneaters Peaks. I doubt you could have the pool on a different planet to that of the primary investiture but happy to be corrected.

Oh and I feel division is unlikely to split the atom but can probably break the bonds between molecules instead?

Edited March 23, 2017 by Extesian

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

Ever since that WoB where he said Shards do design their magic systems, they just have to work within certain parameters like fitting Surgebinding on Roshar to work with what Adonalsium had already established there, I've been pretty convinced.

Could you link it? Because so far I've read WoBs that magic is natural outgrowth of the interaction of the planet and Shards Investign in it and that they don't have a lot of control over it.

Quote

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it.

source

44 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I doubt you could have the pool on a different planet to that of the primary investiture but happy to be corrected.

Very fresh WoB says it's possible

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

To clarify, my belief is that Cultivation PREVIOUSLY invested in Ashyn, before she came to Roshar and Invested there. That whatever magic is on Ashyn currently is what remains of her Investiture there, filtered through the system she designed when she was focused on it. We still don't know exactly what the process is for a Shard de-vesting themselves from a world and going elsewhere, just that it is possible, albeit difficult, so my supposition is that inevitably some Investiture is left or unable to be fully reclaimed.

 

And Oversleep, I'll have to get back to you on the exact WoB....I know its a recent one, it was only in the last couple of months or so and it might have been in the reddit thread? But essentially, he was responding to a question building on stuff he's said about magic arising from the interaction of a Shardworld and that Shard's Investiture, and he clarified that what he meant by that was never that the magic systems were accidental or unintentional, or that the Shards had no control over what form they took, but rather that certain Shardworlds had certain frameworks already in place (like the spren on Roshar) and the Shards had to design their magic systems in and around those existing frameworks.

[AeonaRin]

 

3 hours ago, Oversleep said:

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

I'd be surprised if Cultivation is invested in Ashyn as we as good as know her Shardpool is in the Horneaters Peaks. I doubt you could have the pool on a different planet to that of the primary investiture but happy to be corrected.

Very fresh WoB says it's possible

Yup, but anyway I meant:

2 hours ago, ROSHtaFARian2.0 said:

To clarify, my belief is that Cultivation PREVIOUSLY invested in Ashyn, before she came to Roshar and Invested there. That whatever magic is on Ashyn currently is what remains of her Investiture there, filtered through the system she designed when she was focused on it. We still don't know exactly what the process is for a Shard de-vesting themselves from a world and going elsewhere, just that it is possible, albeit difficult, so my supposition is that inevitably some Investiture is left or unable to be fully reclaimed.

that  

 

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

Oh and I feel division is unlikely to split the atom but can probably break the bonds between molecules instead?

Yeah, I think nuclear explosions would be kinda OP, so I doubt it too, but I've seen a theory on Shard and I want to clarify  

 

Regarding Nightblood: I know it's not a stand-alone system, but Nightblood is very unique, so that's where my question comes from. 

[platnumkid]

I recently put out a theory that the Purelake radiant from Dalinar's vision was a Releaser/Dustbringer if someone has a spare question and could get confirmation that would be great!

It would tell us something about identifying radiants by Plate colour, but it's not as interesting as most of the questions already posted.

[The One Who Connects]

I'd lump splitting an atom with Division in the same bin as Lightweaving a Death Star-esque laser. Doable, but requiring a massive amount of Stormlight and years of scientific progress to even visualize the concepts of atoms/lasers.

Now that I think about it, a Reverse Lashing kinda acts like a mini black hole. Perhaps someone could ask if it actually functions like one?

[Ozyara]

Asked at the  signing if there had ever been someone other than a shard that could use more than two surges and if we were going to see someone like that he said yes to both before saying "wait no you said ever so yes just making sure"

he also wrote in my copies of Arcanum Unbounded "are you listening " while he was answering 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Ozyara

[Pagerunner]

1 hour ago, Ozyara said:

Asked at the  signing if there had ever been someone other than a shard that could use more than two surges and if we were going to see someone like that he said yes to both before saying "wait no you said ever so yes just making sure"

he also wrote in my copies of Arcanum Unbounded "are you listening " while he was answering 

"Are you listening" is a reference to Edgedancer, it's been how he always personalizes AU.

For the >3 Surges, we know that the Heralds had on rare occasion borrowed each others' Honorblades, so they'd be my prime candidates for who has done it in the past. Similar for who we'll see in the future; our main character Radiants have a hold of Szeth's old Honorblade, so anyone who's not Kaladin could use it to get access to a third or even a fourth Surge, depending on who is using it.

[Argent]

17 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

we know that the Heralds had on rare occasion borrowed each others' Honorblades

We do? It doesn't surprise me, but I don't recall that.

[Ozyara]

damnation forgot about the hororblads  ;(

[Pagerunner]

35 minutes ago, Argent said:

We do? It doesn't surprise me, but I don't recall that.

We do indeed.

[Argent]

12 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

We do indeed.

Oh, look, I replied to that comment a year ago...

[lordofarda]

I've always wondered how much of Preservation actually went into the humans of Scadrial. And if more people means weaker Preservation, and if so, how many people would there need to have been born on scadrial before this became a problem.

Additionally, what happens to that part of Preservation that went into humans when they die. Does it go to the beyond with them? Does this mean that Preservation is being eroded away forever? And if in may eons of people being born, will there be no longer any Preservation left and the people being born will be mindless/souless/what-have-you?

Edited March 24, 2017 by lordofarda

[Landis963]

33 minutes ago, lordofarda said:

I've always wondered how much of Preservation actually went into the humans of Scadrial. And if more people means weaker Preservation, and if so, how many people would there need to have been born on scadrial before this became a problem.

Additionally, what happens to that part of Preservation that went into humans when they die. Does it go to the beyond with them? Does this mean that Preservation is being eroded away forever? And if in may eons of people being born, will there be no longer any Preservation left and the people being born will be mindless/souless/what-have-you?

"That part of Preservation" manifests primarily as a constant Connection to him (and now to Harmony), one of multitudes that a person accrues throughout their life and experience.  It's not a quantity as Physical beings understand it, and even if it were, it is mostly negligible (save that Preservation needed to put more into forging that Connection than Ruin did, way way back in Scadrial's prehistory, leading to things like Preservation's state of mind during Secret History) and is renewed as people die.  

[She Who Cannot Be Named]

I recorded the evening question session, and I will post the transcript sometime next week. 

Loosely paraphrasing my questions/answers:

Concerning the Division Surge: it is about breaking molecular bonds. Splitting atoms/nuclei would be waaaay to powerful, as he actually explored it in Dragonsteel. That somehow slipped out accidentally (or at least it seemed like that to me).

Cohesion and Tension: there is a difference, and RAFO. But the working together of two Surges seems to lead to different results for orders with differetly paired Surges.

Silverlight is actually a city where normal people live. He laughed at me asking whether getting there is enough of an application to get in. Need to listen to his anwer again for more details.

Got another RAFO with some interesting tidbits: All Bondsmiths never had Shards. I'd interpret that as all three Spren are still around and not in dead/Blade form. There's also something going on with Sunraiser, Elokhar's Blade. Being etched with all 10 fundamental glyphs seems to be connected to something. And we'll be getting some more backstories of some Shardblades in the future.

[Pattern]

7 hours ago, She Who Cannot Be Named said:

All Bondsmiths never had Shards. I'd interpret that as all three Spren are still around and not in dead/Blade form.

Sprenblade are living spren, Bondsmiths seem to bond unique spren.

Spoiler

For example, there is only one stormfather-spren and it's fairly powerful. To imagine a sprenblade made of him...
Other unique spren to bond for Bondsmiths might be the Nightwatcher and Cusicesh(? spelling).

If you need help with transcriptions, just link the file. I'd gladly help during the weekend.

@Landis963: Preservations part in humanity on Scadrial was that what gave humans sentience, not just some Connection to him (they didn't preexist the shards on Scadrial). The amount of Investiture in an individual though compared to the shard is negligible. The total amount of Investiture in humanity was enough to let Ruin dominate Preservation over time and might also lead to a stronger influence of Ruin in Harmony on a long time scale. There are some WoBs stating that matter, energy and Investiture are equivalent, that Investiture is an addition to real world physics energy-matter equivalence, so I deem it a measurable and even computable quantity.

So a question for Saturday, if someone has no questions: What would be the equivalent mass of a Shard?

Edited March 25, 2017 by Pattern

[dvoraen]

8 hours ago, She Who Cannot Be Named said:

I recorded the evening question session, and I will post the transcript sometime next week. 

Loosely paraphrasing my questions/answers:

Concerning the Division Surge: it is about breaking molecular bonds. Splitting atoms/nuclei would be waaaay to powerful, as he actually explored it in Dragonsteel. That somehow slipped out accidentally (or at least it seemed like that to me).

Cohesion and Tension: there is a difference, and RAFO. But the working together of two Surges seems to lead to different results for orders with differetly paired Surges.

Silverlight is actually a city where normal people live. He laughed at me asking whether getting there is enough of an application to get in. Need to listen to his anwer again for more details.

Got another RAFO with some interesting tidbits: All Bondsmiths never had Shards. I'd interpret that as all three Spren are still around and not in dead/Blade form. There's also something going on with Sunraiser, Elokhar's Blade. Being etched with all 10 fundamental glyphs seems to be connected to something. And we'll be getting some more backstories of some Shardblades in the future.

I've been wondering about this, but I had virtually no ideas as to its significance.  My only serious thought on the subject had to be discarded due to the "Bondsmiths never had Shards" statement.

[maxal]

15 hours ago, She Who Cannot Be Named said:

Got another RAFO with some interesting tidbits: All Bondsmiths never had Shards. I'd interpret that as all three Spren are still around and not in dead/Blade form. There's also something going on with Sunraiser, Elokhar's Blade. Being etched with all 10 fundamental glyphs seems to be connected to something. And we'll be getting some more backstories of some Shardblades in the future.

Does anybody have an idea what he meant by this? What did he mean by "something is going on with Sunraiser"? Did he mean something is going on because it has glyphs on it or something is going on because it might get revived? Did he say which Shardblades we would be getting back story for? Or did he imply anything? 

I am a time zone dummy, so I am unsure if it is too late to ask already , but if someone is going to the signing today, I'd love if someone were to ask if Adolin's Blade is one of those Blades we will get the backstory for?

Edited March 25, 2017 by maxal