Poland - Warsaw and Krakow events 18/21 March

[Oversleep]

7 hours ago, Zennix said:

If she's really on Roshar, it will mean that she is a Worldhopper. Is she also a member of the 17th Shard? 

I doubt it. Vasher and Seventeenth Shard are very far away from each other in their thinking/convictions.

I didn't manage to transcribe the Q&A because I forgot to download the record and the train didn't have wifi. Bummer. I think I'll work through it tomorrow and then start managing the signing things.

[AeonaRin]

5 hours ago, Kanrei said:

Hormonal imbalance was just example of physical cause of illness, that magic can heal illness with physical causes, but not psychological ones

It's actually quite troublesome, because improper brain chemistry in depression is usually caused  by the psychological issues. It can happen in other way (an accident and brain damage) but it's rare. These things go together most of the time. So the actual answer would be: depression can be rarely healed by cosmere magic. 

[+Extesian]

8 minutes ago, strumienpola said:

It's actually quite troublesome, because improper brain chemistry in depression is usually caused  by the psychological issues. It can happen in other way (an accident and brain damage) but it's rare. These things go together most of the time. So the actual answer would be: depression can be rarely healed by cosmere magic. 

I really like the answer. Depression usually comes about when psychological trauma triggers a brain chemistry imbalance. You can then fix the psychological issue but without addressing the chemical imbalance the depression remains or conversely fix the chemistry but without addressing the psychological cause the imbalance will reappear.

So healing will work in a similar way to how medication is supposed to, fixing the imbalance, but without also addressing the psychological cause it won't be enough.

Add to that the component of fixing you to the way you see yourself. That means if someone starts to identify with the psychological effects of the chemistry imbalance (common amongst depression sufferers) then that won't heal anyway.

I think the answer makes good sense from what I know (medically and through experience) of depression.

[AeonaRin]

2 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I really like the answer. Depression usually comes about when psychological trauma triggers a brain chemistry imbalance. You can then fix the psychological issue but without addressing the chemical imbalance the depression remains or conversely fix the chemistry but without addressing the psychological cause the imbalance will reappear.

So healing will work in a similar way to how medication is supposed to, fixing the imbalance, but without also addressing the psychological cause it won't be enough.

Add to that the component of fixing you to the way you see yourself. That means if someone starts to identify with the psychological effects of the chemistry imbalance (common amongst depression sufferers) then that won't heal anyway.

I think the answer makes good sense from what I know (medically and through experience) of depression.

Yeah, exactly what I meant, thanks for elaborating xD 

Edited March 19, 2017 by strumienpola

[Shal]

5 hours ago, Kanrei said:

So yea, in case of autism, I guess it depends if that is first considered as illness, two if cause is physical or psychological.

Autism can be caused by a lot of things, the most common being genetical mutation which is not exactly an illness but can be considered one (same as haemophilia or Down syndrome). "Healing" it would require changing the whole genetic makeup of a person.

That being the case, I'd say that if a person thinks of autism as an illness it *can* be healed but it would change said person's perception of the world and therefore their character etc. If a person views it as an integral part of his/her identity then it probably wouldn't be healed.

After all, perception plays a really important role in Cosmere.

[Landis963]

49 minutes ago, Shal said:

Autism can be caused by a lot of things, the most common being genetical mutation which is not exactly an illness but can be considered one (same as haemophilia or Down syndrome). "Healing" it would require changing the whole genetic makeup of a person.

That being the case, I'd say that if a person thinks of autism as an illness it *can* be healed but it would change said person's perception of the world and therefore their character etc. If a person views it as an integral part of his/her identity then it probably wouldn't be healed.

After all, perception plays a really important role in Cosmere.

This brings up the question of Adien, who will be a major character in Elantris 2, and whom I probably shouldn't say more about (besides the fact, obv., that he is somewhere on the APD spectrum).  (OK, he's on the less neurotypical end when we meet him)

[AeonaRin]

Oh, I almost forgot! I asked one more question!  

Brandon's favourite pie is hot apple pie with crust on top  

[Oversleep]

People on the event:
There was also a girl in a mistcoat (Brandon gave her a pin and took a photo for his page) and there was another girl... I'm not sure if that was intentional but her appearance screamed "VIN!" to me. Short hair and a large spike in her left ear.

There were a few people with nerdy T-Shirts, notable examples are @strumienpola and her hilarious "Rosharan guide to birdspotting" and @Rasarr and "Urithiru Knights". There was also a guy in Samurai Jack shirt which Brandon commented on. I also noticed somebody with Dream of the Endless on his shirt. There were also two girls sitting by with Windrunner glyph and another one (I only recognized Windrunner glyph).

There were also at least two people with "Speak friend and enter" Gandalf shirt (which Brandon commented on).

And I was wearing a black shirt with white Cosmere symbol and inscription. So if you saw a guy in that shirt standing by the stage for 4.5 hours and writing down stuff, that was indeed me. To people who had gone up to me to talk: thanks for all the kind words, it means a lot to me

Edited March 20, 2017 by Oversleep

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Extesian said:

I really like the answer. Depression usually comes about when psychological trauma triggers a brain chemistry imbalance. You can then fix the psychological issue but without addressing the chemical imbalance the depression remains or conversely fix the chemistry but without addressing the psychological cause the imbalance will reappear.

So healing will work in a similar way to how medication is supposed to, fixing the imbalance, but without also addressing the psychological cause it won't be enough.

Add to that the component of fixing you to the way you see yourself. That means if someone starts to identify with the psychological effects of the chemistry imbalance (common amongst depression sufferers) then that won't heal anyway.

I think the answer makes good sense from what I know (medically and through experience) of depression.

I have read depression is caused by a chemical imbalance within the brain which previously already existed. In other words, some individuals are just more prone to depression than others and reading Kaladin's flashbacks, he sounded depressed and defeatism even before he had a good reason too. I am not a doctor though, but it is just what I have been told... about my sibling, that it was inevitable. That is was doomed to happen no matter what anyone did and/or say. 

Anyway, I have a serious mental blockage when it comes to depression and disabilities which makes it hard for me to be objective. I would have thought Cosmere healing would cure Kaladin of whatever chemical imbalance caused his depression and if it lingers, then it is all him.

1 hour ago, Landis963 said:

This brings up the question of Adien, who will be a major character in Elantris 2, and whom I probably shouldn't say more about (besides the fact, obv., that he is somewhere on the APD spectrum).  (OK, he's on the less neurotypical end when we meet him)

Adien definitely was on the autism spectrum and he definitely was "healed" when he became an Elantrian. This is a good example: I would like to hear what Brandon has to say on the subject.

[AeonaRin]

Oh yeah, my tee, Brandon said "I can't believe you're wearing this shirt"  Next time I'd love to wear a t-shirt with "let me think. RAFO" that was recently posted in sanderson memes  If someone draws Brandon, let me know! 

[+Extesian]

8 minutes ago, maxal said:

I have read depression is caused by a chemical imbalance within the brain which previously already existed. In other words, some individuals are just more prone to depression than others and reading Kaladin's flashbacks, he sounded depressed and defeatism even before he had a good reason too. I am not a doctor though, but it is just what I have been told... about my sibling, that it was inevitable. That is was doomed to happen no matter what anyone did and/or say. 

Anyway, I have a serious mental blockage when it comes to depression and disabilities which makes it hard for me to be objective. I would have thought Cosmere healing would cure Kaladin of whatever chemical imbalance caused his depression and if it lingers, then it is all him.

Adien definitely was on the autism spectrum and he definitely was "healed" when he became an Elantrian. This is a good example: I would like to hear what Brandon has to say on the subject.

The way I've had it described to me by my uncle is who also a mental health specialist is that you have predisposition to a chemical imbalance and some people will get that kick in no matter what, but others (like me) require mental trauma (can be an event or just the build up of circumstances) as the snapping event to trigger the imbalance. So the mental reasons for depression still play a part for less severe sufferers. But there's no one answer to depression, that linkage makes sense to me. In which case once you have depression it stays until you fix the imbalance, it recurs unless you fix the psychological reason, and if you're susceptible enough it's probably going to happen anyway.

Kaladin for example may have gotten depression no matter how nice his circumstances. Or if he had lower susceptibility his actual life circumstances explain the triggers that set off the imbalance that was already possible due to his genetics. Now he has the imbalance even fixing the circumstances would not be enough in the immediate term, without something to fix the brain chemistry. But if he becomes generally happy (outside of the depression) and views himself as being him without the depression and was healed - well that should be enough.

But that's not to argue the point, just to prevent a line of reasoning that makes sense to me, has some evidentiary basis and fits with what Brandon has said.

Either way it's a great thing that we talk about this in detail and that he helps facilitate these discussions by writing openly and without judgement on mental health issues!

Edited March 20, 2017 by Extesian

[AeonaRin]

8 minutes ago, maxal said:

I have read depression is caused by a chemical imbalance within the brain which previously already existed. In other words, some individuals are just more prone to depression than others

 

1 minute ago, Extesian said:

The way I've had it described to me by my uncle is who also a mental health specialist is that you have predisposition to a chemical imbalance and some people will get that kick in no matter what, but others (like me) require mental trauma (can be an event or just the build up of circumstances) as the snapping event to trigger the imbalance. So the mental reasons for depression still play a part for less severe sufferers. But there's no one answer to depression, that linkage makes sense to me. In which case once you have depression it stays until you fix the imbalance, it recurs unless you fix the psychological reason, and if you're susceptible enough it's probably going to happen anyway.

Some people are more prone to depression than others, there's also some heritability to it,  but developing depression without a trigger is not very frequent. Most patients deal with mental issues, although lots of them don't even know it. There's still taboo in this matter unfortunately. 

[Landis963]

29 minutes ago, maxal said:

Adien definitely was on the autism spectrum and he definitely was "healed" when he became an Elantrian. This is a good example: I would like to hear what Brandon has to say on the subject.

I was trying to write around the fact that Adien became an Elantrian because I didn't know how many of the Cosmere books Shal had already read.  But yes.  

[maxal]

27 minutes ago, Extesian said:

The way I've had it described to me by my uncle is who also a mental health specialist is that you have predisposition to a chemical imbalance and some people will get that kick in no matter what, but others (like me) require mental trauma (can be an event or just the build up of circumstances) as the snapping event to trigger the imbalance. So the mental reasons for depression still play a part for less severe sufferers. But there's no one answer to depression, that linkage makes sense to me. In which case once you have depression it stays until you fix the imbalance, it recurs unless you fix the psychological reason, and if you're susceptible enough it's probably going to happen anyway.

Kaladin for example may have gotten depression no matter how nice his circumstances. Or if he had lower susceptibility his actual life circumstances explain the triggers that set off the imbalance that was already possible due to his genetics. Now he has the imbalance even fixing the circumstances would not be enough in the immediate term, without something to fix the brain chemistry. But if he becomes generally happy (outside of the depression) and views himself as being him without the depression and was healed - well that should be enough.

But that's not to argue the point, just to prevent a line of reasoning that makes sense to me, has some evidentiary basis and fits with what Brandon has said.

Either way it's a great thing that we talk about this in detail and that he helps facilitate these discussions by writing openly and without judgement on mental health issues!

Thanks, that's a very good post. As I said, depression is a very sore subject for me because is I allow myself to it, all I will feel is deep anger and white hot rage  They talk a lot about depression, about what it does to the people which suffers depression, but very few people talk about their relatives, their siblings... 

Nobody talks about the neurotypical children which were raised within those households. They aren't allowed to not live well with it. That's the sad truth and decades later, you get people such as myself having a very hard time with the disease, worst not being able to understand because of this rage which won't go away.

I hope Kaladin will find his balance and his happiness even if he'll always battle with the disease.

[+Extesian]

@maxal living with someone with depression, especially as a sibling, is a terrible thing. We focus on the direct sufferer, and we should because depression and anxiety are two of the most common illnesses that desperately need an understanding of how they affect your mind so you can separate the illness from just the problems of life, and treat those two things differently. But those around that person often have the toughest time. I can only say that the more people generally talk about it the more direct and indirect sufferers can understand and deal with the often confusing and distressing ways these things can affect behavior.

@Oversleep and others who did recordings, i have time tonight to transcribe if I can help out (understanding there are sensitivities around the Big Reveal, something I have no wish to know let alone publish). Let me know if I can give a hand. If we have a few recordings I can link them on the OP. But if you're taking care of it Oversleep, especially due to the confidential part, I'll leave you to continue the good work

[teknopathetic]

16 hours ago, Kanrei said:

 

Q: Can Cosmere magic heal illness like depression?

A: It can heal physical stuff, like hormonal imbalance in brain, but if there are psychological reasons then it wont help

 

Strange. Didn't Vasher remove the emotional trauma of that kidnapped noble girl? Sure, she didn't have depression, but she did have a severely altered metal state that would have lead to depression. Perhaps those memories hadn't had enough time to sink into her identity.

[Kanrei]

7 hours ago, strumienpola said:

It's actually quite troublesome, because improper brain chemistry in depression is usually caused  by the psychological issues. It can happen in other way (an accident and brain damage) but it's rare. These things go together most of the time. So the actual answer would be: depression can be rarely healed by cosmere magic. 

One of reasons for my question was to check limitations of magic healing in Cosmere. I wanted to know if magic healing is limited to healing body, or can it heal someones mind too

I chosen depression because of my personal struggle with it (so I knew what I was asking about, while I dont know that much about other illnesses caused by psychological traumas) and some very important person for me suffer from depression too, Kaladin's great portrait of someone struggle with it, and fact that Brandon's wife suffer from it, so he has personal hands on experience and would understand implications of question.

My interpretation of answer is that Cosmere magic healing is indeed limited to physical aspect. It can heal only body, but cant heal mind itself.

@maxal Depression is very personal for me too, both as direct (mostly in past) and indirect (currently) sufferer of it. So I can understand you a bit. It took me years to be able talk about it normally and realize how it affected this around me. Take care about yourself

@Extesian Thanks for offer. I think we already got Q&A transcribed and we are working on signing recordings (half or more done). I will let Oversleep decide.

4 hours ago, strumienpola said:

Oh yeah, my tee, Brandon said "I can't believe you're wearing this shirt"  Next time I'd love to wear a t-shirt with "let me think. RAFO" that was recently posted in sanderson memes  If someone draws Brandon, let me know! 

Your T-shirt was great
Im myself thinking about something with Bridge 4 glyph and text "Run like Bridge 4", maybe even as present for Brandon when he will be next time in Poland
For sure Im going to prepare much better for next time

[Kanrei]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

Strange. Didn't Vasher remove the emotional trauma of that kidnapped noble girl? Sure, she didn't have depression, but she did have a severely altered metal state that would have lead to depression. Perhaps those memories hadn't had enough time to sink into her identity.

Hmm interesting, good catch.
Do you remember where is it in book so I can check and maybe get someone who will be on second signing in Poland to do follow up?
I dont remember if it was healing or just making her forget as this are two different things and we know that Cosmere magic can affect influence mind (emotional Allomancy as most visible example).
 

[Pattern]

Vasher changing memories always seemed odd to me. It doesn't really fit into Awakening. Any lore on that?

 

[Yata]

9 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Vasher changing memories always seemed odd to me. It doesn't really fit into Awakening. Any lore on that?

Well Awakening is "cognitive editing". I see without problem he could affect living too.

[skaa]

12 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Vasher changing memories always seemed odd to me. It doesn't really fit into Awakening. Any lore on that?

 

I had a thread about that a long time ago. I called it "Self-Awakening", and speculated that it weakens one's bond with Endowment's Investiture.

[Pattern]

@skaa: Interesting thread, the details are enlightening. Vasher doesn't heal the girl, the girl heals herself while repeating Vasher's words. The exact mechanism remains speculative though.

[Kanrei]

14 minutes ago, skaa said:

I had a thread about that a long time ago. I called it "Self-Awakening", and speculated that it weakens one's bond with Endowment's Investiture.

Thanks for pointing your topics, very informative

So what girl did, wasnt healing per see, just transformation of her memories.
I wonder if they were erased completely, or maybe just suppressed. If later is correct, it could probably cause some problems for her in future.

Maybe fact that Returned have suppressed memories of their previous life has something to do with it?
I will need read Warbreaker again and Annotations but still it might be good question to ask in future.

[ccstat]

My take has been that the girl transferred her memories to Vasher. She gave him a small piece of her Breath that had those memories attached to it. This is speculation on my part, but it fits the text and it matches with what we know of Nalthian magic, which is all about giving things away.

Here are the relevant passages in Warbreaker.

Vasher and the girl, chapter 49

Spoiler

They immediately moved toward one of the rich neighborhoods of T’Telir. Vasher didn’t say much as they walked, and the girl was even more unresponsive. Vivenna worried for the child’s mind. She had obviously had a rough couple of months.

They passed from shanties, to tenements, to decent homes on tree-lined streets with burning lanterns. As they reached the mansions, Vasher paused on the street, setting the girl down. “Child,” he said. “I’m going to say some words to you. I want you to repeat them. Repeat them, and mean them.”

The girl regarded him absently, nodding slightly.

He glanced at Vivenna. “Back away.”

She opened her mouth to object, but thought better of it. She stepped back out of earshot. Fortunately, Vasher was near a lit streetlamp, so she could see him well. He spoke to the little girl, and she spoke back to him.

After opening the cage, Vivenna had taken the Breath back from the thread. She hadn’t stowed it somewhere else. And, with the extra awareness she had, she thought she saw something. The girl’s BioChromatic aura—the normal one that all people had—flickered just slightly.

It was faint. Yet with the First Heightening, Vivenna could have sworn she saw it.

But Denth told me it was all or nothing, she thought. You have to give away all the Breath you hold. And you certainly can’t give away part of a breath.

Denth, it had been proven in other instances, was also a liar.

Vasher stood, the girl climbing back into his arms. Vivenna walked up and was surprised to hear the girl talking. “Where’s Daddy?” she asked.

Vasher didn’t reply.

“I’m dirty,” the girl said, looking down. “Mommy doesn’t like it when I get dirty. The dress is dirty too.”

Vasher began walking. Vivenna hurriedly caught up.

“Are we going home?” the girl asked. “Where have we been? It’s late, and I shouldn’t be out. Who’s that woman?”

She doesn’t remember, Vivenna realized. Doesn’t remember where she’s been . . . probably doesn’t remember anything of the entire experience.

Vasher and Denth, chapter 57:

Spoiler

Vasher slumped down, sword lost. He reached for a knife on the belt of a fallen soldier, but Denth stepped up and put his booted foot on Vasher’s hand.

“You think I should just go back to the way I was before?” Denth spat. “The happy, friendly man everyone loved?”

“You were a good person,” Vasher whispered.

“That man saw and did terrible things,” Denth said. “I’ve tried, Vasher. I’ve tried going back. But the darkness . . . it’s inside. I can’t escape it. My laughter has an edge to it. I can’t forget.”

“I can make you,” Vasher said. “I know the Commands.”

Denth froze.

“I promise,” Vasher said. “I will take it all from you, if you wish.”

Denth stood for a long moment, foot on Vasher’s arm, sword lowered. Then, finally, he shook his head. “No. I don’t deserve that. Neither of us do. Goodbye, Vasher.”

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by ccstat

[Oversleep]

ATTENTION!

Tomorrow, the Kraków event: THE HOUR WAS CHANGED! ONE HOUR EARLIER. NOW IT'S 17:00 (5 am) not 18:00 (6 am).