Classification of Magic Systems

[Confused]

This theory presents my views only. Assume every sentence and paragraph is preceded by an “IMO.”

Summary

1. Brandon alternately describes Spiritual Realm Investiture that isn’t part of a Spiritweb as “power,” “raw power,” “the godly powers,” the “powers of creation” (my favorite, for its descriptiveness), “true Investiture,” a “Shard’s energy,” and a Shard’s “energy of being,” In my posts, I call this substance the “Powers.”

2. Each form of Cognitive and Physical Realm Investiture is unique to its Shardworld. This “Unique Investiture” differs from every other form of Unique Investiture and from the Spiritual Realm Powers. The Investiture that composes Spiritwebs (what I call “Spiritweb Investiture”) likewise differs from the Powers.

3. Some magic systems use “catalysts” to touch the Spiritual Realm Powers. These catalytic magic systems perform what I call “Creation Magic” – they can form or change any cosmere Spiritweb to achieve spectacular magical effects. Such systems use both local Unique Investiture and the Spiritual Realm Powers as fuel for their magic. Surgebinding and Awakening are examples,

4. Other magic systems use Unique Investiture as their sole fuel. Unlike Creation Magic, which can do anything, “Unique investiture Magic” only affects the soul the Unique Investiture Invests. Feruchemy is an example of Unique Investiture Magic.

What are the Powers?

The Powers were originally “Adonalsium” and are now his Spiritual Realm corpse broken into the 16 Shards that Invested the Vessels. The Powers embody the capacity to “create” – to form or change any Spiritweb by converting into new matter, energy or Unique Investiture. They simultaneously are the raw material from which the cosmere is formed. Everything created (“Creation”) comes from the Powers.

Brandon says the cosmere is one substance. Wax notices this in BoM (Kindle, p. 370, emphasis in original): “They’re all the same. Metals, minds, men, all the same substance…” Brandon says Wax sees “the cosmere-equivalent of atoms/investiture/energy waves all being the same thing.” Marasi likewise observes “There were no people or objects, just energy coalesced.” (BoM, Kindle p. 359.) Brandon says the Powers are not inherently sentient or sapient.

What Is Unique Investiture?     

“Investiture” is Brandon’s “word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium.” If the Powers comprise a potential reality, able to change anything, then Unique Investiture is the magical component of the Cognitive and Physical Realm reality the Powers create – the “Condensed ‘essence’ of these godly powers.”

All Cognitive and Physical Realm Investiture is Unique Investiture, found only on its Shardworld. Stormlight, Breaths, the Dor, and the mists are examples of Unique Investiture, as are spren, Divine Breath, Aons and lerasium.

Differences Between the Powers and Unique Investiture

1. Realmic Location.

a. The Powers exist only in the Spiritual Realm (except for the Dor, which began there but is now a “hybrid” Investiture capable of performing Creation Magic from its Cognitive Realm location). The Shards are “mostly Spiritual” because of the Powers. Except for the Dor, location is irrelevant to the use of the Powers – an Allomancer can Connect with Preservation on Roshar.

b. Unique Investiture exists in all three Realms. Investiture is the cosmere’s “building block” and “transcends” the Realms. Unlike the Powers, Unique Investiture is part of the Spiritual DNA of its Shardworld's soul. Location is very relevant for Unique Investiture. Non-natives of a Shardworld must “hack” the local Unique Investiture to use it (except for Breaths, which “key” into their holder’s Identity).

2. Types of Magic.

a. The Powers perform Creation Magic – the ability to make new realities through the introduction of matter, energy and/or Unique Investiture. The Powers are remnants of godhood and can form or change any Spiritweb and its corresponding Physical and Cognitive Realm aspects. “People with magic” can direct the Powers. Windrunners bring new energy into Creation to change gravity’s vector. Forgers like Shai bring new Investiture into Creation to change a soul and remake Connections.

When Marasi uses the Powers in BoM, “mist” begins “spinning around her” – coming from her. [BoM, Kindle p. 360.] Wax exits the underground temple “trailing mist.” [BoM, Kindle p. 368.] When he holds up the Bands, “winds, snows, and eventually traces of mist” swirl around him. [BoM, Kindle p. 379.]

Marasi and Wax each use the Bands to draw massive amounts of the Powers – more than they need for their Allomancy. The excess Powers convert themselves into new energy (the “winds”), matter (the “snows”) and Unique Investiture (“traces of mist”). Marasi and Wax each acknowledge they held the “[‘very’] powers of creation [‘themselves’].” [BoM, Kindle pp. 379, 369.]

b. Unique Investiture is part of a planet’s “physics,” the planet’s “nature.” Unique Investiture Magic works with or without direction to change, repair or improve the person the Unique Investiture Invests. Unique Investiture Magic includes self-healing; heightened health, strength, speed, senses and acuity; and magical snapping and bonding. Mortals cannot command Unique Investiture Magic to change any Spiritweb other than their own soul. Mortals can use Unique Investiture to redistribute their existing Realmic attributes, like Feruchemy and ChayShan do, but they can’t create new attributes. There are two kinds of Unique Investiture Magic: (i) Adonalsium’s “ambient” magic, and (ii) post-Shattering Mandated Investiture Magic.

c. Unique Investiture directly fuels Unique Investiture Magic. Creation Magic uses Unique Investiture to Connect with the Powers. Attaching Unique Investiture to a magic user’s soul is the first step in Creation Magic. This can occur at conception (Allomancy), birth or conception (Awakening) or by attracting a temperamentally-aligned spren (Surgebinding). “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.”

3. Splinters. The Powers can splinter and develop sentience. Unique Investiture can’t splinter or develop sentience. Fragments of Unique Investiture (like atium geodes and Breaths) lack self-awareness and can’t by themselves create.

4. Direction. The Powers need a mind to direct them or will become self-directing. The Powers roil until directed – Brandon says, “raw power is dangerous.” Unique Investiture does not always need direction.

Examples on Each Shardworld

I count seven known cosmere magic systems that use the Powers to perform Creation Magic:

Nalthis: Awakening.

Roshar: Surgebinding, Fabrials and Voidbinding (maybe).

Sel: The “one magic” system that’s been balkanized.

Scadrial: Allomancy.

Taldain: Sand Mastery.

Following are examples of Unique Investiture Magic on each Shardworld:

First of the Sun: Aviar form Cognitive bonds with chosen human companions. The humans cannot direct the Aviar to choose them and never touch the Powers. The Aviar extend these bonds to enfold their companions in the Aviar’s protective Cognitive shield.

Nalthis: The Heightenings improve and perfect mortal attributes like senses and health without direction of or Connection to the Powers. “Breath Transfer” is also Unique Investiture Magic – Breathholders move quanta of their innate Investiture to other people, who “heighten” as a result. (Awakening, unlike simple Breath Transfer, performs Creation Magic. An Awakener drains color to Connect to the Powers, enabling the Breathholder to animate – “Awaken” – objects.) The Returned are like the Nightwatcher – they grant others a single boon, to heal them. This Unique Investiture Magic works by the Returned transferring its Divine Breath – with its Fifth Heightening healing power – “to heal someone else’s Breath that is weakening and dying.”

Roshar: The Nightwatcher’s Old Magic changes mortal attributes. The mortal beneficiaries don’t touch the Powers and can’t direct what the Nightwatcher will do: Baxil says she gives the boon seeker what he deserves, not what he asks for. Stormlight augments Kaladin’s speed and strength even when he’s not Surgebinding and heals him without direction. Spren symbiosis with native lifeforms is an example of pre-Shattering “ambient” Unique Investiture Magic.

Scadrial: The mists cause potential Allomancers to “snap” – to widen their latent Connection to Preservation. Feruchemy is the oldest of Scadrial’s magics. (HoA, Chapter 34 Epigraph.) Even Hemalurgy came before modern Allomancy. Feruchemists hold genetically innate Investiture, half from Preservation and half from Ruin. Feruchemists don’t touch the Powers unless they’re Twinborn – Allomancy does use Creation Magic. Feruchemists can’t create attributes; they can only redistribute existing attributes.

Sel: Shuden’s ChayShan resembles Feruchemy – ChayShan focuses Shuden’s internal energy and strength onto the point of impact with the Dakhor monk. Shuden’s family is from JinDo, on the other side of Duladen from Arelon. If ChayShan were location-based Creation Magic, Shuden couldn’t use ChayShan in Arelon. For the same reason, I suspect Forton’s potion is also Unique Investiture Magic – Hrovell is far from Arelon, yet Forton’s potion (made in Hrovell) works effectively in Arelon to temporarily change the appearance of its target.

Taldain: Dayside’s undirected growth of watered microflora is Unique Investiture Magic. “Certain people can control [the microflora’s] reaction” using their body water to touch the Powers, but the undirected growth is Unique Investiture Magic. (AU, Kindle p. 369.) Because Autonomy’s Unique Investiture doesn’t “beat down” on Darkside, Darkside’s magic probably is Adonalsium’s “ambient” Unique Investiture Magic.

Threnody: Khriss concludes “some measure of Investiture must have existed on this planet before the battle between Shards.” [AU, Kindle p. 417, emphasis added.] She doesn’t speculate on the planet’s pre-Shard Unique Investiture Magic.

*   *   *   *   *   *

This post is the first in a series on cosmere magic. I had written a much longer theory, but it became unwieldy. I’m chopping it into more manageable pieces for periodic postings.

I want to thank @WeiryWriter, @Kurkistan, @Argent, @Yata, @Spoolofwhool and @Blightsong for reading drafts of the longer theory and helping me clean up mistakes. Their comments also sharpened the theory’s focus and presentation. None of them completely agree with me….

Edited April 19, 2017 by Confused
Consistency and terminology.

[Jedal]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Spren symbiosis with native lifeforms is an example of pre-Shattering “ambient” Investiture Magic.

I'm pretty sure this is post Shattering. There is a WoB that says that the spren modeled their symbiosis after the Heralds and Honor.

 

Otherwise, this is a pretty good and comprehensive theory!

[Ciridae]

14 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I'm pretty sure this is post Shattering. There is a WoB that says that the spren modeled their symbiosis after the Heralds and Honor.

 

Otherwise, this is a pretty good and comprehensive theory!

Some spren were left behind intentionally after Adonalsium created Roshar and naturally developed symbiotic relationships with the local flora and fauna. Its true that the KR spren, and probably most other spren we see in the books, are pieces of Honor or Cultivation, but there were spren on Roshar even before the shattering.

[Bugsy]

12 minutes ago, Jedal said:

I'm pretty sure this is post Shattering. There is a WoB that says that the spren modeled their symbiosis after the Heralds and Honor.

 

Otherwise, this is a pretty good and comprehensive theory!

I believe he is referring to symbiosis between creatures such as the larger greatshells, such as the chasmfiends. Symbiosis in the sense of the KR was almost certainly modeled after the heralds, but other forms of symbiosis do exist

I very much like how you organized this, with thourghough documentation of each point you make. While it makes it minorly more difficult to read, it makes it much easier to comprehend your points. One thing I would like to mention; the fact that gravity and time exist in the Cosmere suggests that space-time warping occurs, but a recent WoB I received from Brandon says that while investiture does warp space time, it does not do so on the physical realm. As such, I would contest the claim that investiture makes up everything. My understanding is that while investiture is a fundamental part of the Cosmere, it exists in the same capacity as do mass and energy in our world. In the Cosmere, rather than a pair, these would form a trifecta. Investiture, mass, and energy can all be transformed into one another. I was planning to wait to post this WoB until I had more time to evaluate it, but I felt it might be relevant here and would be worth sharing. This would not violate your theory, nor would it violate the quotes you provide; similarly to how mass can be said to be composed of energy in our world, mass could be said to be composed of investiture in the Cosmere. This does not mean that everything is investiture, though, just like how I would consider a book matter and not energy. 

[Dawnshard]

Actually Matter is Energy. They are the same thing but in separate states. That's why energy cannot be created or destroyed.

[Mati]

On 2.03.2017 at 9:29 PM, Confused said:

Stormlight augments Kaladin’s speed and strength even when he’s not Surgebinding and heals him without direction.

So about healing, while he probably doesn't need to think about geting healed, what gets healed depends on his perception.

Quote

MACROS

So then that’s why at one point Shallan requires ten heartbeats and now she doesn’t.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Right, just like—it’s the exact same reason why Kaladin’s forehead wounds don’t heal, because he views himself as need—as having those, somewhere deep inside of him, and that can’t heal until that goes away. And it’s the same reason why in Warbreaker, when you bring something to life your intention, rather than really what you say, is what matters. It’s all about perception.

 

[Djarskublar]

On 3/2/2017 at 1:29 PM, Confused said:

“Investiture Magic” uses Investiture as its sole fuel and only affects the soul that is the subject of the magic. 

You put some serious thought into this, clearly, but I have a few bones to pick with it too. I was seriously befuddled by some of the things you have said in your post. ^ This for example. Of course it uses investiture as the fuel. What else would it use? Chulls?

The other major problem with your post is your terrible naming sense. We already have names for all these things, and you are just adding confusion to the mix. What you call 'Powers' are just Shards. What you call 'Creation Magic' are just external manifestations of Investiture, and 'Investiture Magic' -aside from being a really confusing and bad name for it- are just internal manifestations of Investiture. Though the exact definition you present and the definitions that are understood for external/internal manifestations differ somewhat, they are more canon, and therefor more useful when asking questions and discussing things.

Now on to comments on your actual points, and some clarifications of information I think you have wrong or that my speculation differs on.

On 3/2/2017 at 1:29 PM, Confused said:

Investiture Magic uses Investiture directly as “fuel.” Creation Magic uses Investiture to Connect with the Powers. Grafting local Investiture onto a magic user’s soul is the first step to Connect with the Powers.

An example of an external manifestation, or what you call Creation Magic, would be Allomancy. You burn metal and cause a change external to you. This isn't, as you put it, using Investiture to Connect with a Shard. You are already Connected. What is really going on here is you allow (or force/get, depending on how you look at it) the power to flow through you through a focus, in this case a specific metal, and then you have a shaped Investiture in you that you can use to exert a changing 'force.' You aren't using Investiture to Connect, you use a physical focus.

On 3/2/2017 at 1:29 PM, Confused said:

3. Splinters. The Powers can splinter and develop sentience. Investiture can’t splinter or develop sentience. Fragments of Investiture (like atium geodes and Breaths) lack self-awareness and can’t by themselves create.

You have this a bit off. The Shard has x amount of Investiture available to it. When a piece of it it broken off, intentionally or otherwise, this is known as Splintering. The only real difference between, say, a spren and a Shard is the sheer quantity of Investiture they have. If you had a person and pumped a truly massive amount of Investiture into them, their mind expands and they Ascend. That is what happened to Vin with the mists. There are 3 important levels of Investiture. There are normal levels, where you may or may not have the right stuff to perform magic, but can't do much more. There is a higher level, where raw Investiture, or an Invested inanimate object, has enough Investiture available to it that it reaches a critical mass of the stuff. This level only matters if the Investiture is left out of the control of something sentient for long enough. If left alone, it will eventually develop sentience of its own. The third critical mass of Investiture is where you have enough that your mind expands, you lose your normal physical form, and you Ascend. There are outliers with this, like Wax and the Bands or awakening an object to sentience, where you temporarily move partially into a higher category. You touch on this in your next point, but you apparently haven't made the connection between the two.

For your examples, you need to know that what matters for classification is if the fuel comes from an external source, like a Shard, or from the user's own soul. So I would say that we can't tell with Aviar, because we don't know enough about what the birds are doing. They could be tapping the local Pool for power, or the Pool could have basically infused them in a manner similar to Heightenings and granted them passive abilities.

Transferring Breaths is a Command, so it would be a Creation magic under your definition, since you are morphing the soul of the recipient. A more pressing concern is that Breath is weird. It is basically the photon of the Investiture world. It exhibits properties of multiple forms of Investiture, much as photons have the properties of particles and waves, so Breath really defies any decent classification until Brandon gives us some better information. There is a long standing debate over whether Breath is kinetic Investiture or not, and I don't really want to get into that one with this thread.

Returned are much the same as normal awakeners, but with the restriction that they can't use/transfer their one massive Breath without dying. It is stapling their Cognitive shadow to their body, so if they use it, their mind moves on to the Beyond. That is effectively the only difference between them and regular people. Well, that and their ability to manipulate their spiritweb (and therefor appearance) at will, probably via that Breath.

The Old Magic is an external magic, because whatever the Nightwatcher is causes a change in your soul that is external to her. Think of her as just another person in this sense. If she were just some ridiculously powerful person, you would likely think of her differently.

Use of the Mists is just using Preservation's power for your abilities, in this case Allomancy, without the need for a metal focus to filter it. The mists snapping people is just the mist causing extreme physical distress to snap people. That is the standard method in that day-- beat up the person and see what happens. Also, you failed to classify Hemalurgy, but it is also a bit strange, and we don't know if it actually channels any of Ruin's power directly to make a spike. It does increase your Connection to Ruin, though, so there is that.

For Sel, this is where I most heavily disagree with you. You say the ChayShan must be internal when that doesn't really make sense in the context the planet is giving us. ALL of the powers on Sel come from the same system. The one deft thing you said in your post is that they are balkanized-- I really liked that way of putting it. I don't want to into a TON of detail, but here are my suspicions for Sel. The first thing to know is that you can use Aons outside Elantris, but they are much, much weaker, as we saw when Raoden teleported away. Elantris is just a massive Aon that buffs up Elantrian's power so that they are truly useful. You say the ChayShan is internal, but Dakhor monks are probably extremely similar. Dakhor monks and the Listeners appear to do something similar. They use an external Investiture to change their physical form and physical/mental properties. Be it the Dor or a spren, they seem to do something with a similar mechanic. Performing the ChayShan is probably most similar to burning pewter with a measure of either normal sense heightening to the point of echolocation or some sort of lifesense that lets them fight with their eyes closed. Regardless, they would pretty much certainly be channeling power from the Dor to perform it. Otherwise, it would just be a Feruchemy variant and not a Selish magic. The only reasonable explanation for the potions is that they have to be brewed in Forton's homeland. That is the location that potion masters can connect their brews to the Dor to allow them to infuse the potion with actual power. Once the potion is brewed, it is already Invested, so drinking it is no longer location dependent, hence the potion drunk by Hrathen and Sarene work on them.

 

Overall a very good post, just mind that the Powers of Creation are Investiture directed by those with truly massive power that defies the protective barriers provided mortals that channel how the Investiture is used. This allows them to do as they will with the power. Those holding the power of the Well reached that level of Investiture, but other than that, you really need to perform a normal Ascension to reach that level. Hence, what you call the Powers are effectively just Shards. I would be happy to also provide my feedback for your theory in addition to those you mentioned above if you just shoot me a PM with your draft of it.

[King Cole]

Aren't Spren considered splinters. I'm not sure about this and if im wrong please correct me. But if they are, don't they have sentience?

[Confused]

Thank you, Bugsy, for your kind words. I agree with you and Dawnshard. Investiture, matter and energy comprise the cosmere and are convertible into one another. The OP says that the Powers of Creation are the source of Investiture, matter and energy, their "raw material."

 

The OP’s linked WoB about the cosmere's "one substance" refers to Brandon's interest in the philosopher Baruch Spinoza. Spinoza believed the universe consists of a single substance that takes different forms. Based on this, I state "Everything created (“Creation”) comes from the Powers," not Investiture. Just wanted to clarify that point.

 

Mati, you are correct. Stormlight heals Kaladin even when he’s unconscious. The healing puts Kaladin back into his self-perceived form, rather than his Spiritual Realm “perfect” form. As Brandon says in your cited WoB, “It’s all about perception,” at least post-Shattering.

 

King Cole, you are also correct: spren are splinters and have sentience. Many, like you, may even have “merry old souls…”

 

Djarskublar, I especially want to thank you for your comments. You’re the only person to address the substance of my post. You’re right – I’ve thought about this stuff for a long time, and it’s gratifying that someone took the time to respond.

 

You believe the proper framework for analyzing magic systems is whether the source of magic is “external” or ‘internal.” Creation Magic systems are easy to spot with that framework. The Powers are always “external.”  Magic users consume catalysts to call the Powers from the Spiritual Realm (except for the Dor).  

 

But most Investiture Magic systems also use “external” magic. I’m aware of only three Investiture Magic systems – Feruchemy, Breath Transfer and the Returned – that rely on wholly “internal” Investiture. The “internal-external” framework also doesn’t predict how yet unknown magic systems will behave. I believe the “Creation Magic – Investiture Magic” model does.

 

My model looks at the nature of the magical fuel, not its source. Does the magic tap into the Powers? If so, its Creation Magic. Does it instead use only local Investiture? Then its Investiture Magic, whether the Investiture comes from an internal or external source. The Powers can do anything, change anything. Investiture can only change the individual soul that is its object. My model predicts new magic systems that rely solely on Investiture can affect only a person’s soul; and systems that rely on Investiture and the Powers of Creation can affect anything and anyone.

 

Spoiler

IIRC, the “external-internal” approach comes from Brandon’s comparison of Allomancy with Feruchemy. Scadrial is the only Shardworld created entirely by Shards. Brandon acknowledges Scadrial’s “goofy things.” I think it’s risky to infer generalizations from Scadrial’s magic.

 

I address a few of your other points below:

 

“Of course it uses investiture as the fuel. What else would it use? Chulls?”

Not chulls (ha ha) but the Powers. Yes, the Powers are now a form of Investiture, but they differ from other Investiture in Realmic location, consistency and function.

 

“What you call 'Powers' are just Shards.”

Adonalsium was the “whole” of the Powers. “Shards” are large pieces of the Powers. Splinters are small pieces of the Powers. Your statement reads “Shards = Powers.” They do not. The statement is like saying an ocean IS water, rather than a very large body of water.

 

 “[Burning] metal…isn't, as you put it, using Investiture to Connect with a Shard. You are already Connected.”

This comment responds to my statement that “Grafting local Investiture onto a magic user’s soul is the first step to Connect with the Powers.” Notice the “first step” part. In Allomancy (your example), that first step is conception, when a potential Allomancer inherits the Spiritual ability to Connect with Preservation. On Nalthis, everyone is born with Breath – long before they can Awaken or transfer it. On Roshar, spren choose whom to bond with. On Taldain, I believe an Autonomy splinter chooses a host based on the degree of the host’s self-reliance. Khriss says all Selish people are born with some Spiritual Connection to the Dor. These attachments of Investiture to mortal souls are the “first steps” of creating magic users. Not every potential magic user becomes an actual one.

 

Your quoted statement is both true and untrue. Metal is not Investiture. Metals are Preservation’s “concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power.” (BoM, Kindle p. 359). As you say, burning metals “isn’t using Investiture to Connect with a Shard.” But the Allomancer is NOT “already Connected.” An Allomancer’s “innate Investiture” grants the capacity to Connect to Preservation through metals, but does not itself create the Connection. Burning metals creates the temporary Connection.

 

“Splinters”

I’m not sure what’s a “bit off” here. I can agree with your main point – that the capacity to direct magic is proportional to the amount of Investiture – but only if the Investiture is the Powers. Your statement is true of spren and Shards, which are composed (mostly) of the Powers. It’s not true of any other form of Investiture than the Powers. The Pits of Hathsin held a lot of atium – Ruin’s Investiture – but none of it developed sentience because atium is not composed of the Powers. Susebron bonded 50,000+ Breaths – fragments of Endowment’s Investiture – but the Breaths didn’t become independently sentient. Roshar’s spren show that the Powers can become sentient independent of the host they’re bonded to.

 

Response to Your Comments on Specific Examples

 

Breath Transfer – The OP states “Investiture Magic works with or without direction to change, repair and improve the Spiritual DNA of a soul and its corresponding aspects.” The ability to command Investiture to change a soul does not make it Creation Magic. The ability to command the Powers – and create anything – does.

 

The Returned – I’m uncertain of your point here. We agree the Returned benefit from their Divine Breath. We also agree their magic comes from transfer of their Divine Breath. Their magic, as you point out, only affects the healed person who receives the Divine Breath – the “object” of the magic.  The Returned do not touch the Powers of Creation when they perform this magic. This is Investiture Magic, not Creation Magic.

 

The Mists – Yes, the mists act as fuel for Vin’s Creation Magic, but that’s not the mist’s main function. “Snapping” widens the cracks in an Allomancer’s soul, which allows more Investiture in. This additional Investiture enables the Allomancer to burn metals and Connect with Preservation. Without that additional Investiture, the potential Allomancer, despite his or her innate Investiture, never becomes an actual Allomancer. Snapping is an example of Investiture Magic – changing a mortal’s soul.

 

Hemalurgy – I don’t consider Ruin-style Hemalurgy a magic system at all. It’s a mechanical means by which a pain-glorified, cosmere-savvy “staple gun” can transfer attributes. My list of magic systems wasn’t intended to be exhaustive. I do believe there are other less violent hemalurgic systems based on other Shards’ magic. Hemalurgy in such forms is Investiture Magic, since these systems don’t touch the Powers and only affect the target’s soul.

 

ChayShan – YOU say ChayShan uses “internal” Investiture, not me. I think ChayShan pulls Sel’s ground-based Investiture into the magic user (to be discussed in my next theory post.) We know Sel’s Creation Magic is location-dependent, but a magic user can perform Investiture Magic anywhere on Sel. Creation Magic involves Connection – the relationship between a mortal and the Powers that, on Sel, grows weaker with distance. Investiture Magic involves “Identity” – the relationship that keys a mortal to his or her native planet’s Investiture. Why can Shuden perform ChayShan in Arelon, far from his ancestral home in JinDo? Because his magic relies solely on Sel’s Investiture and doesn’t have to Connect with the Cognitive Realm Powers. There’s no other way to explain this.

 

Forton’s Potion – You speculate Forton Invested his potion in Hrovell, but it took effect in Arelon. I agree. That’s why the potion must be Investiture Magic. Creation Magic doesn’t work the way you describe. A Creation Magic user consumes a catalyst, touches the Powers and directs their magical effect. End of magical transaction. There’s also the problem of Sel’s location-dependency. If Forton did use the Powers in Hrovell, that’s where they are most strongly Connected. But the magic can’t take effect in Arelon unless the Connection to the Powers is made there, not Hrovell. Hrovell is farther from Elantris than Elantris is from Teod. Finally, Forton’s potion works exactly as my theory predicts. His magic only affects the soul that is its object – Hrathen’s or Sarene’s – to make them look like Hoed Elantrians.

 

Again, thank you all for your comments. Regards!

Edited March 10, 2017 by Confused
Clean up.

[Djarskublar]

Thanks for taking a fairly critical post well, this one will be more critical, but not of any individual point, just one of your beliefs.

The thing is, there are no Powers of Creation, there are just different volumes of Investiture. Everything in the Cosmere was created through Investiture from Adonalsium or the Shards of him. This isn't The Name of the Wind, where there is sympathy, alchemical, and naming magic all in one book. There is only Investiture powering things. It just takes different forms.

For example, you mentioned that you don't think that the ChayShan draws power from the Dor. Even though you didn't express it that way, the Dor is in the Cognitive realm pretty much entirely, so there isn't any other energy source for a ChayShan user to draw on. A user can't "rely solely on Sel’s Investiture," they can only access the Dor.

To attempt another explanation, you appear to believe that there are Investiture powered magics that can only affect the self, and other powers that come from some nebulous Powers of Creation. That is patently false. Take something you think of as Creation magic, Surgebinding is probably the best example, and lets see how it works. First, the Highstorm passes by, and any exposed spheres are charged with Investiture. The Shardic Intent of the Light is as yet unknown as to its composition, but it can be presumed to be from Honor, Cultivation, or more likely, some mix of the two. Then Kaladin comes along and sucks in the Stormlight. He grabs a rock and Lashes it towards the sky. What happens here is a mere transfer of energy. Some of the Light he has breathed in goes into the rock, and that powers the rock's defiance of normal gravity. He isn't accessing some "Power of Creation," he is just using Investiture as he wills within the bounds set by the magical manifestation of Investiture.

On a more concrete note, Brandon has never said anything about some Powers of Creation, only Investiture. Everything in the universe came from Investiture once held by Adonalsium. All the matter is just converted Investiture. The Shards are large chunks of Mr A's power, and there are some bits that didn't get claimed, like the pool on First of the Sun.

The thing is though, you can manipulate most anything to your will if you have enough Investiture, and this is unbounded by some rules governing a magic system. This can most readily be seen by looking at anyone who has taken the power of the Well of Ascension. They temporarily gain access to a stupendous amount of Investiture, and this allows them to cause things as they will. Their mind also expands somewhat to accommodate their newfound ability and allow them to make such changes as altering the DNA of every living thing on Scadrial. This is the closest thing you can get to the Power of Creation (not your definition of it, though).

I think that covers that pretty well, so on to something else interesting.

9 hours ago, Confused said:

The Mists – Yes, the mists act as fuel for Vin’s Creation Magic, but that’s not the mist’s main function. “Snapping” widens the cracks in an Allomancer’s soul, which allows more Investiture in. This additional Investiture enables the Allomancer to burn metals and Connect with Preservation. Without that additional Investiture, the potential Allomancer, despite his or her innate Investiture, never becomes an actual Allomancer. Snapping is an example of Investiture Magic – changing a mortal’s soul.

I wouldn't really say the mists have a 'main' function, they are just power available to Preservation that allows someone to Ascend, or allows Preservation to act on Scadrial in the way you described, or any number of other things not shown in book. It's raw Preservation in gas form, it can do what it wants.

Something I want to clarify with this, though, is that everyone (on Scadrial) is Connected to Preservation because it has a bit of power in all of the people. Connection isn't just a thing allowing power, you soul is basically comprised of your Connections to everything. Kelsier developed a strong Connection to Ruin because of his bloodlust and destruction. It wasn't due to any magic, it was just that his actions and emotions emulated Ruin pretty well, so he Connected to Ruin. Burning metal, then, isn't increasing your Connection to Preservation, it is only opening a pathway for its power to flow through you. You connect to the power source like plugging in a cord. A cord that happens to shrink as you use it... maybe that's not the best analogy. What matters for becoming an Allomancer is having a strong enough Connection to Preservation from conception that allows you to Snap under stress. The stress creates the initial cracks in the soul, not the use of power, and using lots of power puts pressure on those cracks, widening them, and eventually causing savantism. You have to be a broken person for power to come to you, basically. This is especially evident with Surgebinders.

 

All in all, we don't agree on a lot, but most of that comes from your idea of Powers of Creation, so unless I can change your mind on that, there isn't much I can really do about any of your other thoughts I disagree with. Good work, though. It makes me happy that there are other people who think about this as much as I do, though Kirk's thoughts on speedbubbles trumps both of us XD

[Umbrae]

If allomancy was performed by metals connecting you to Preservation it would have to be assumed it could only be performed when a connection could be formed in the first place. We can take that idea and prove it false. Hoid performs allomancy on Roshar, a place that lacks any connection to Preservation. Harmony is strongly bound to Scadrial and has a hard time even learning about what is happening outside of it. I think it is safe to assume that anyone with less power than a Shard could not be making a connection to Scadrial from Roshar.

[Fezzik]

Preservation exists mostly in the spiritual realm which is location independent. It does not matter where you are if you are an allomancer, you will always be able to connect to Preservation. The only magics that are location dependent are elantrian magics (also chay-shan etc.) because they access the Dor, which is in the cognitive realm, and being a Knight Radiant, where the spren you are bonded to is very tied down by location, because they are from the cognitive realm.

[Umbrae]

Location definitely matters. In Secret History Kelsier walks out of Ruins sphere of influence. Odium is bound to Roahar at the moment. Autonomy refuses anyone and anything travel into or out of his/her area that he/she can affect. To say that location doesn't matter to the spiritual realm would mean that you could spiritually effect someone from anywhere and where you get cut by a Shardblade doesn't matter as long as you intend to cut them. Location matters. Al realms are connected. None of them are strange and seperate like the Beyond.

[Fezzik]

7 hours ago, Umbrae said:

If allomancy was performed by metals connecting you to Preservation it would have to be assumed it could only be performed when a connection could be formed in the first place. We can take that idea and prove it false. Hoid performs allomancy on Roshar, a place that lacks any connection to Preservation.

It does not matter that Roshar has no connection to Preservation. The only thing that matters to an allomancer is that the allomancer himself is connected to the power of Preservation. (This is what lerasium does, rewrites SDNA to connect someone to Preservation, making them an allomancer) This connection exists regardless of the position of the allomancer because the spiritual realm is accessible everywhere. 

 

7 hours ago, Umbrae said:

Harmony is strongly bound to Scadrial and has a hard time even learning about what is happening outside of it. I think it is safe to assume that anyone with less power than a Shard could not be making a connection to Scadrial from Roshar.

Harmony is bound to Scadrial because his power invested and created the world, therefore tying himself to it. He has a hard time learning about the rest of the cosmere because there are forces from outside actively trying to stop Harmony from gaining knowledge. To be an allomancer, you do not need a connection to scadrial, you don't need metal from Scadrial, and since it's genetic, you don't need to be born on Scadrial (also Hoid, who ate lerasium).

[Umbrae]

20 minutes ago, john203 said:

It does not matter that Roshar has no connection to Preservation. The only thing that matters to an allomancer is that the allomancer himself is connected to the power of Preservation. (This is what lerasium does, rewrites SDNA to connect someone to Preservation, making them an allomancer) This connection exists regardless of the position of the allomancer because the spiritual realm is accessible everywhere. 

I fully agree with his statement. What I am getting at is that the OP stated that you are creating a connection every time that you use allomancy or any "creation magic". This is a poor summation of what is actually going on. Brandon states that you are directing and focusing investiture when you use allomancy. It is a net positive magic but that doesn't mean you are reconnecting to the Shard or in the OP's word "powers" everytime you burn a metal. The metal is just the focus. The way I have always thought of it is like a prism or colored glass. Investiture flows through you and is focused into a certain effect, much like you can filter light through a prism or glass to get a certain color or light.

[Djarskublar]

53 minutes ago, Umbrae said:

I fully agree with his statement. What I am getting at is that the OP stated that you are creating a connection every time that you use allomancy or any "creation magic". This is a poor summation of what is actually going on. Brandon states that you are directing and focusing investiture when you use allomancy. It is a net positive magic but that doesn't mean you are reconnecting to the Shard or in the OP's word "powers" everytime you burn a metal. The metal is just the focus. The way I have always thought of it is like a prism or colored glass. Investiture flows through you and is focused into a certain effect, much like you can filter light through a prism or glass to get a certain color or light.

Yes, but you have to plug into a power source to get things to happen. You can connect in the Spiritual Realm independent of anything in the Cognitive or Physical Realms. So you are mostly right, but there is that one clarification. You are Connecting to the Shard, but you already have a passive Connection that allows you to Connect in a way that lets you use the magic in a certain way.

[Yata]

(a little premise, as a not native English, my post could be read as rude, but I has not the skills to efficiently bend the words to accomodate a specific tone in the discussion)

Ok I am a bit late to the party (really tiresome days for me) anyway I don't buy this model yet.

The premise "Powers !=Investiture" is pure speculation (more than that because there are references to explicity problems with it) and you need a tons of exception only to make it slightly work and a couple of them are really heavy exceptions.

I would start to some random counter examples that comes to my mind while reading the first post:

- Mists are "in-book" and by Brandon called both Investiture and Power of Creation....This alone destroyes the separation between the two concepts.

- The Perpendicularities are defined both "Investiture" and "power of creation" too.

- Feruchemy is defined by Brandon as a Magic System and allows the user to manipulate the Power of Creation.

(assuming we didn't found an explicit mention to Investiture=power)

- We know a Splinter made by Investiture, while for your own model the Splinters has to be made of Power. Of course I am talking of Nightblood. We have also a WoB with the possibility to turn Stormlight into a Spren.

- If the Power is alone in the Spiritual Realm, it have to collapse into Investiture when you push it in the others Realms. It has to turn from "Creative potential" into "Creation" (matter/energy/Investiture) in your model.

(1) So the Dor can't be an exception, once in the Cognitive it is not more Power but instead Investiture (this extends itself to Honor's power and Ambition's one)

(2) A Shard will run out of Power, Preservation's Power will eventually diminish from Allomancy usage...While we know the Power used will return eventually to the Shards.

(3) With your model Ruin has not use for the Atium. He can't make it again Power so in the great scheme of thing he could not use it to overpower Preservation. So the whole Atium's hunt is meaningless.

[The next is a fresh one born while I was writing the (3)]

Your model is aganist the whole post ascension Sazed's point in HoA's ephitaps "For a god, his body and his power are the same". Translating with our own terms "For a god, his Investiture and his Power are the same".

A last note that it's not stricly related to the content but to the form, I suggest you to change your terms (as I suggested too while the Theory was private) because like @Djarskublar said you confuse (pun intended) the reader and the theory becomes harder to follow. You changed the semantics of canon term and made new words to call something it had already a name....It's a mess to follow in this way, much more if the reader has not the flexibility to understand the different contexts of "your theory" and the "canon knowledge"

 

Now not related to the theory:

On 8/3/2017 at 6:58 AM, Djarskublar said:

Returned are much the same as normal awakeners, but with the restriction that they can't use/transfer their one massive Breath without dying. It is stapling their Cognitive shadow to their body, so if they use it, their mind moves on to the Beyond. That is effectively the only difference between them and regular people. Well, that and their ability to manipulate their spiritweb (and therefor appearance) at will, probably via that Breath.

Actually the Returned as Cognitive Shadows will simply be unable to remain in the Physical, but they could remain almost whatever they want in the Realms (struck in the Cognitive), sure they could simply choose to reach the Beyond (I asked this to Brandon regard the whole "Cognitive Shadows" not Returned in specific) but they are not pulled by it.

EDIT: Fixed some words

Edited March 12, 2017 by Yata

[Djarskublar]

That was an excellent way to put it, Yata. Unsurprisingly, there are still some grammar errors, but as always, you get the point across more effectively than many people could despite that issue. Have an orange arrow.

So your point on Returned... Does this mean they qualify as Slivers as well since they only go Beyond if they wish to, like Kelsier? Or is it mere coincidence that both types are able to stick around?

[Yata]

30 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

So your point on Returned... Does this mean they qualify as Slivers as well since they only go Beyond if they wish to, like Kelsier? Or is it mere coincidence that both types are able to stick around?

It is a lot tangential to this topic (so if you want to continue it, it's better to start a new one).

Anyway a Cognitive Shadow happens when someone's soul is replaced by Investiture (that emulates the actual Soul)..There is a debade between the Cosmere's Scholars on how considerate a Cognitive Shadow. "Is it the actual person or a copy of him ?"...returning to our question, I think when a Sliver dies...He automatically turns into a Cognitive Shadow, but there may be Cognitive Shadows other than Slivers. Be a Sliver is only A way to be sure to become a Cognitive Shadow after your death but not the only one.

You may see how others Cognitive Shadows in the Cosmere are quite stable. For example the Therenody's Shades or the Heralds.

[Calderis]

@Yata

So essentially, all slivers are cognitive shadows, but not all shadows are slivers

[Djarskublar]

Well, would TLR count as a Shadow? I don't think so. I guess they are independent, but frequently overlap. TLR was both after he died.

[+Extesian]

@Yata will correct me if I'm wrong but yeah a sliver is someone who has held the power of a shard and released it (TLR, Kelsier etc) but a sliver is (or can be) still alive (Brandon describes it as like a skin filled and stretched from being filled, with the stuff inside then released). A Cognitive Shadow is by definition the shadow of someone no longer alive but who held such a high level of investiture while they were alive that their soul was permeated by investiture and kind of copied, like a petrified tree where the wood is replaced with stone.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

Well, would TLR count as a Shadow? I don't think so. I guess they are independent, but frequently overlap. TLR was both after he died.

For the minutes between his death and his reaching the Beyond. He will probably be counted as Cognitive Shadow (but again this depend by the Truth if a Cognitive Shadow is actually the deadman or a deadman's copy).

56 minutes ago, Extesian said:

@Yata will correct me if I'm wrong but yeah a sliver is someone who has held the power of a shard and released it (TLR, Kelsier etc) but a sliver is (or can be) still alive (Brandon describes it as like a skin filled and stretched from being filled, with the stuff inside then released). A Cognitive Shadow is by definition the shadow of someone no longer alive but who held such a high level of investiture while they were alive that their soul was permeated by investiture and kind of copied, like a petrified tree where the wood is replaced with stone.

Yeah the definitions are right, but remember we know little about the Cognitive Shadows.

For example we know a Cognitive Shadow could be created with relative low Investiture (just see the Therenody's Shades) or we know of someone who actually manage to become a Shadow when he was already dead linking to an huge source of Invesiture (kelsier).

Now guys, I see the topic interest you. So I suggest to open a specific new topic about and leave this one as clean as possible for Confused's theory, there are probably already too off topic here ;-)

[Calderis]

I know TLR wasn't a Cognitive Shadow while alive, but he chose to leave after death. There was no pull from the beyond. What I should have said was all slivers will be shadows 

[Confused]

THE POWERS OF CREATION ARE A FORM OF INVESTITURE. I say this in the OP and my first follow-up post. I repeat it here to clarify any confusion.

Stormlight is a form of Investiture. The Dor is a form of Investiture. The mists are a form of Investiture. THE POWERS ARE A FORM OF INVESTITURE. Each form of Investiture is unique. I call the Powers the “Powers” only to distinguish them from the other forms.

What are the Powers’ special characteristics? They differ from other forms of Investiture in Realmic location and function.

Location: Only in the Spiritual Realm, except for the Dor. (Sel’s Cognitive Realm Dor is still the Powers and behaves like all the other Powers except for its location dependency.) The Shards are “mostly Spiritual.”

Function: Other forms of Investiture are unique to their Shardworld. The Powers are “raw” Investiture – they are the same everywhere (except for the Dor). Think of this “raw Investiture” as the cosmere’s magical stem cells: The Powers are undifferentiated Investiture that has not yet become specialized. They can become anything and do anything. That’s why Brandon says “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” The Powers are the Powers regardless of how a magic user accesses or uses them.

Djarskublar, you say “there are no Powers of Creation,” and “Brandon has never said anything about some Powers of Creation.” How then do you explain this WoB (emphasis added):

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

This is one of Brandon’s most important statements about how magic works. The catalytic magic systems like Allomancy use the catalyst to “tap into the powers of creation.” Investiture like the mists is the “condensed ‘essence’ of these godly powers”; the mists are not the Powers themselves. How can you deny the difference between the Powers and Investiture after reading this WoB?

Brandon still distinguishes between Investiture and the Powers of Creation. Please look again at the BoM passages I cite in the OP. When Marasi uses the Bands of Mourning, mists come from her. She’s producing the mists because she’s using the Powers. The excess Powers she doesn’t need convert into Investiture – the mists.

Yata, you say, “The premise ‘Powers != Investiture’ is pure speculation (more than that because there are references to explicit problems with it) and you need a tons of exception only to make it slightly work and a couple of them are really heavy exceptions.”

I understand your words, but not what you’re saying. I’ve heavily documented everything in the theory. Look again at the OP. There are NO EXCEPTIONS to the theory. If the theory is “pure speculation,” then how do YOU interpret the WoB above? That WoB is clear, straightforward, and consistent with everything else Brandon says on the subject and everything in this theory.

You say “Feruchemy…allows the user to manipulate the Power of Creation.” Everything I’ve seen says Feruchemy’s Investiture is wholly internal. Where does Brandon say Feruchemy manipulates the Powers? Reference?

You also say, “Your model is against the whole post-ascension Sazed's point in HoA's [epigraphs]. ‘For a god, his body and his power are the same’. Translating with our own terms ‘For a god, his Investiture and his Power are the same’.”

Note again the quoted WoB: Investiture is the “condensed essence of the godly powers.” I’m not “against” the point of this epigraph; I think my theory supports it. Under Brandon’s “one substance” principle (cited in the OP), a god’s “body and his power” should be “the same.” Both are magical substances that should readily convert into one another. Vin’s use of the mists (Preservation’s “condensed essence”) to fuel her Allomancy shows this interpretation is correct.

Naming Conventions

I am open to any name to denote the differences between the magic fueled by Investiture alone and the magic fueled by the Powers. Those differences exist and are cosmere-real. If you read these posts carefully and go through each example in the OP and the first follow-up post, you’ll see this is so. After trying other names for “Investiture Magic” and “Creation Magic,” I chose eponymous ones. Apologies for any confusion. Just remember, if a magic system uses a catalyst, it performs Creation Magic. If it doesn’t, it performs Investiture Magic.

The Problem with Paradigms – Theory “Validity” vs. Theory “Correctness”

Spoiler

 

We “theorists” tend to develop our own models, our own “paradigms,” to analyze the cosmere. It’s difficult to assess each other’s theories with a fresh and unfettered mind. A poster’s “confirmation bias” towards his or her own view is the problem with paradigms, and I’m often guilty of this. Which is why theory “validity” rather than theory “correctness” should be the guide.

I think there are three criteria for theory “validity”: (i) Does the theory make sense on its own terms – is it self-consistent? (ii) Is the theory consistent with text and clearly stated, unambiguous WoBs? (iii) Does the theory predict things that are now unknown but will become known in the future?

A theory may turn out to be wrong, or you may disagree with it, but it can still be “valid” based on the known facts. Until unknown facts become known, no theory is “true or false,” “right or wrong,” etc. We don’t know. There is only “validity” based on the cited criteria.

I hope everyone remembers this before they start calling ideas “patently false,” etc. All a theorist can do is be “valid.”

 

If anyone wants me to address other specific points raised, I’ll be happy to do so. I think if you recognize the Powers are a form of Investiture, most of these issues disappear.