WORDS OF RADIANCE SPOILERS - Adolin's Consequences in "Oathbringer"

[Critic Corner]

Just occurred to me that Dalinar could, in response to Sadeas' murder, take the fall of Adolin legally if (or when) the consequences eventually come to fruition.

 

Thoughts on this?

Edited March 2, 2017 by Critic Corner

[Weltall]

I don't see it as terribly likely, mostly because if the truth comes out I don't think Adolin would allow his father to do that. He killed Sadeas to prevent him from undermining Dalinar's authority (after it became obvious to everyone else that there are more important things than internal Alethi politics going on) and letting his father take the fall for his actions would completely undermine that. Not to mention that Adolin has demonstrated no trouble with taking responsibility for his own actions before (aside from some willful blindness about the cause of his many many breakups, though even there he owns up to a couple that we see from his internal dialogue) and even insisted on being confined along with Kaladin because he felt the other man was right. So no, I don't think Adolin would allow his father to take the blame for Sadeas' death.

That said, you know this is going to come up in Oathbringer. Adolin may not have hidden the evidence of his involvement as well as he thinks and we know Sadeas' wife is a dangerous player of the same political games.

Oh, and welcome to the Shard!

[Darkness Ascendant]

You said...WOR Spoiler...then you put the spoilers in the title???

(Nice idea btw)

Edited March 2, 2017 by Darkness Ascendant

[soyperson]

12 minutes ago, Weltall said:

That said, you know this is going to come up in Oathbringer. Adolin may not have hidden the evidence of his involvement as well as he thinks and we know Sadeas' wife is a dangerous player of the same political games.

He definitely didn't hide the evidence as well as he thought.

But, yes! Welcome!

[Critic Corner]

8 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I don't see it as terribly likely, mostly because if the truth comes out I don't think Adolin would allow his father to do that. He killed Sadeas to prevent him from undermining Dalinar's authority (after it became obvious to everyone else that there are more important things than internal Alethi politics going on) and letting his father take the fall for his actions would completely undermine that. Not to mention that Adolin has demonstrated no trouble with taking responsibility for his own actions before (aside from some willful blindness about the cause of his many many breakups, though even there he owns up to a couple that we see from his internal dialogue) and even insisted on being confined along with Kaladin because he felt the other man was right. So no, I don't think Adolin would allow his father to take the blame for Sadeas' death.

That said, you know this is going to come up in Oathbringer. Adolin may not have hidden the evidence of his involvement as well as he thinks and we know Sadeas' wife is a dangerous player of the same political games.

Oh, and welcome to the Shard!

Thank you for the welcome!

I was mostly theorizing on the fact that Sanderson loves throwing characters in the Stormlight Archives into facing consequences that they do or do not deserve. 

I do feel that if there's any judicial actions brought to Adolin, Dalinar will step in and try to save his son – though as you pointed out about Adolin's willingness, he might reject his father's pleas and be taken to the cells again (or execution? I don't know about the legal system in Roshar.)

[Critic Corner]

3 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

You said...WOR Spoiler...then you put the spoilers in the title???

(Nice idea btw)

Ah, yeah… I should probably edit that title…

[Darkness Ascendant]

9 minutes ago, Critic Corner said:

Ah, yeah… I should probably edit that title…

heh, good idea.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Darkness Ascendant

[Khyrindor]

I've seen a theory posted a while back that someone thought Ialai might be pregnant with Torol's child. Could definitely see the douche jr having a roll in the back half.

As to Adolin's punishments. I wouldn't want Adolin to get of scott free on this, and I imagine Dalinar wouldn't either. Adolin, in his guilt, might allow blame to be placed on Dalinar for a while, before realizing he has to take responsibility for his actions no matter the punishment. I think that will be a big part of his character arc this book, if Brandon chooses to delve into Adolin's character even more.

[soyperson]

44 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

I've seen a theory posted a while back that someone thought Ialai might be pregnant with Torol's child. Could definitely see the douche jr having a roll in the back half.

As to Adolin's punishments. I wouldn't want Adolin to get of scott free on this, and I imagine Dalinar wouldn't either. Adolin, in his guilt, might allow blame to be placed on Dalinar for a while, before realizing he has to take responsibility for his actions no matter the punishment. I think that will be a big part of his character arc this book, if Brandon chooses to delve into Adolin's character even more.

Douche Jr.

Can someone contact Brandon and suggest that as a name?

All jokes aside, I'm sure that Adolin's guilt will be a major factor during the investigation, and that he will have to do the "honorable" thing and turn himself in after someone is wrongfully convicted. Like Kal. Ultimate bro move, right there.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, Critic Corner said:

Thank you for the welcome!

I was mostly theorizing on the fact that Sanderson loves throwing characters in the Stormlight Archives into facing consequences that they do or do not deserve. 

I do feel that if there's any judicial actions brought to Adolin, Dalinar will step in and try to save his son – though as you pointed out about Adolin's willingness, he might reject his father's pleas and be taken to the cells again (or execution? I don't know about the legal system in Roshar.)

Interesting, but I tend to disagree with the idea Dalinar would readily take the blame for Adolin's mistakes. Sure our modern sensitivities would want a loving father to be willing to sacrifice anything for his son's behalf, but Dalinar has proven he wasn't such a man. There are a few instances, within the book, where Dalinar prioritized politics and/or more favored relatives over Adolin such as the chasmfiend hunt and the 4 on1 duel. We could also add the last Plateau fight as Dalinar just throws Adolin's reserved troops in the melee to help Aladar, despite his generals arguing against it. I had always find it disturbing Dalinar's men would be the ones to point those soldiers were meant to support Adolin's assault. Mind, military-wise the strategy was probably sound, but father-wise, it was dispiriting the thought didn't even cross his mind, even if it were unlikely to change his mind.

All in all, Dalinar has demonstrated his higher goal of uniting Alethkar and/or maintain Gavilar's heritage were more important to him than his son's well-being. It isn't he would waste Adolin's life, but if placed against Elhokar or his plan, I think Dalinar would chose the later and not the former.

So no, Dalinar wouldn't take the blame. His sense of honor would also want him to want Adolin to step up and take it himself. Whatever happens, I am quite sure Dalinar isn't taking the plunge for his son's shake. Maybe he would have, had it been Renarin or Elhokar, but Adolin doesn't get leeway from his father, never.

3 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

I've seen a theory posted a while back that someone thought Ialai might be pregnant with Torol's child. Could definitely see the douche jr having a roll in the back half.

As to Adolin's punishments. I wouldn't want Adolin to get of scott free on this, and I imagine Dalinar wouldn't either. Adolin, in his guilt, might allow blame to be placed on Dalinar for a while, before realizing he has to take responsibility for his actions no matter the punishment. I think that will be a big part of his character arc this book, if Brandon chooses to delve into Adolin's character even more.

Considering the fact The Thrill proved Ialai was well into her fifties, I would strongly argue this theory is dead. It ran on the notion she might have been decades younger than her husband, thus making her still capable of bearing child. Since it isn't the case, I seriously feel trying to make readers believe this 50-something woman, who failed to carry a child within her good child-bearing years, somehow magically got pregnant at an age where it is virtually impossible to do so would trial the suspense of disbelieve of many. I also doubt Brandon would even attempt at that: he knows how child-bearing works, he has three kids. 

Nobody wants Adolin to get out of it scotch free, but neither of us have probably found what the real consequences might be. I was once told we failed to think of the most important element: to whom murdering Sadeas would matter the most? I now think the answer to this question is Adolin. I think it is quite probably he'll make his own punishment just as I think he will ditch his uniform out of feeling unworthy to wear it. I'd be disappointed if the reason we finally see Adolin wearing normal clothes would merely be Dalinar allowed him to.

2 hours ago, bleeder said:

Douche Jr.

Can someone contact Brandon and suggest that as a name?

All jokes aside, I'm sure that Adolin's guilt will be a major factor during the investigation, and that he will have to do the "honorable" thing and turn himself in after someone is wrongfully convicted. Like Kal. Ultimate bro move, right there.

Considering the fact Kaladin was at the top of the Tower further revealing himself as a Radiant, surrounded by Dalinar, Shallan and Renarin, I seriously doubt the murder could even be pinned on him. He was acquainted for and he has an alibi: nobody can think it was him.

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, bleeder said:

Douche Jr.

Can someone contact Brandon and suggest that as a name?

All jokes aside, I'm sure that Adolin's guilt will be a major factor during the investigation, and that he will have to do the "honorable" thing and turn himself in after someone is wrongfully convicted. Like Kal. Ultimate bro move, right there.

I can see it happening. It's definitely the kind of thing that adolin would do. right now there's no real proof to connect him to the murder, but if an innocent was blamed in his place adolin would try to help him. [wild speculation] maybe that honorable act will allow adolin to become a radiant?

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Interesting, but I tend to disagree with the idea Dalinar would readily take the blame for Adolin's mistakes. Sure our modern sensitivities would want a loving father to be willing to sacrifice anything for his son's behalf,

Actually, I think our modern sensitivities would want a leader to not play favourites towards his family, but to do what is best for his followers. which dalinar is doing admirably. I doubt a general in the army who risks losing the battle to better protect his soldier son would be well received.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I can see it happening. It's definitely the kind of thing that adolin would do. right now there's no real proof to connect him to the murder, but if an innocent was blamed in his place adolin would try to help him. [wild speculation] maybe that honorable act will allow adolin to become a radiant?

Actually, I think our modern sensitivities would want a leader to not play favourites towards his family, but to do what is best for his followers. which dalinar is doing admirably. I doubt a general in the army who risks losing the battle to better protect his soldier son would be well received.

The Powder Mage played with this trope.

Spoiler

In the end, Tamas chooses to go to his son's rescue, even if it meant leaving the army (in capable hands, but still). He is blamed for his decision.

The thing is Dalinar isn't always the Leader and the General, he is also a father. He can't play favorites, this is true, but he shouldn't ignore the fact Adolin is his son: there is an emotional link which can't be ignore. I am personally ill-at-ease to see how easily Dalinar seems to forget and by forgetting, I do not mean he should base his decision making over the fact one of his soldiers is his son, he shouldn't, but it should at least weight on him. Adolin should weight more on him than Elhokar but since he doesn't, I think it unlikely Dalinar would be willing to compromise anything because Adolin was stupid enough to kill a Highprince. 

 

[1stBondsmith]

I don't think what Adolin did was wrong or "a mistake". I sang out a "good on you!" When I read that part. You don't sleep at night with a snake in your bed. Sadeas tried to kill Adolin twice, and had just committed to try and kill Dalinar again. A good son of the Blackthorn, and a good leader. The consequences his father worried over earlier were political, not legal or moral. It met justice, but not expedience. The politics just changed dramatically before their encounter. Cheers, Young Kholin!

Edited March 8, 2017 by 1stBondsmith

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

I don't think what Adolin did was wrong or "a mistake". I sang out a "good on you!" When I read that part. You don't sleep at night with a snake in your bed. Sadeas tried to kill Adolin twice, and had just committed to try and kill Dalinar again. A good son of the Blackthorn, and a good leader. The consequences his father worried over earlier were political, not legal or moral. It met justice, but not expedience. The politics just changed dramatically before their encounter. Cheers, Young Kholin!

eh, morally I also fully support adolin, but by the law he still committed murder; if he is discovered, there will be consequences. and dalinar can't really stop the legal system there, not if he wants to be a good bondsmith.

Though, if worse comes to worse and adolin is convicted, I expect him to go at it totally badass. Like "I regret that I had but one villain to kill for my country".

Huh. I really hope adolin is not executed. it would explain why he'll get so few pow in the next book, and it certainly would throw a lot of conflict into characters who are comfortable - dalinar foremost, but also shallan and kaladin would be thoroughly shaken.

[maxal]

39 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

eh, morally I also fully support adolin, but by the law he still committed murder; if he is discovered, there will be consequences. and dalinar can't really stop the legal system there, not if he wants to be a good bondsmith.

Though, if worse comes to worse and adolin is convicted, I expect him to go at it totally badass. Like "I regret that I had but one villain to kill for my country".

Huh. I really hope adolin is not executed. it would explain why he'll get so few pow in the next book, and it certainly would throw a lot of conflict into characters who are comfortable - dalinar foremost, but also shallan and kaladin would be thoroughly shaken.

Considering the fact Brandon said Adolin had the most surprising, unpredictable and interesting character arc within the book (or was he referring the series, I would need to look again at the right wording), I sincerely doubt he will be executed as I sincerely do not think "dying" would fit the bill. His lack of viewpoints thus does not seem to be linked to a tragic ending.

I also doubt Adolin would go badass: he isn't a killer nor does he enjoys when he has to kill. He dislikes the warfare, he hates the hunting and he despises butcheries: he isn't revealing into the battle as his father used to even when wrapped within the Thrill. 

He isn't a masked avenger either: this would be Jasnah (I totally see her in with a cape, a mask and a rapier hunting the bad guys in the darkness ). Also, Adolin doesn't care about the political entity which is the "country": he cares about the people living in the country. He didn't kill Sadeas because he threatened the country, he killed him because he threatened to kill his father and his people as collateral damage.

There are so many more interesting ways his character could go, but this is up to the author.

 

[AerionBFII]

On Roshar, specifically Alethkar Legally i don't think Adolin did anything wrong. The Alethi seem rather Machiavellian and would most likely be seen as a savvy even applaudable political move rather than an act of murder and i don't think he could even be tied to it, he hid his tracks pretty well for a spur of the moment action. I believe  if there are any actual consequences from this they will be more personal, anger from Sadeas' wife and his lickspittles most likely and you can expect retaliation but since the camps are basically at dagger points already not much has changed on that front, disapproval from Dalinar as this conflicts with the new Alethkar he is trying to build i imagine the same from Kaladin. The Kaladin before swearing his most recent Oath would have probably approved but Stormblessed 2.0 will most likely side with Dalinar. Jasnah would probably approve though.

10 hours ago, maxal said:

Considering the fact Brandon said Adolin had the most surprising, unpredictable and interesting character arc within the book (or was he referring the series, I would need to look again at the right wording),

where does Brandon say that about Adolins Arc? Do you have a link i'd love to check it out!

[soyperson]

1 hour ago, AerionBFII said:

On Roshar, specifically Alethkar Legally i don't think Adolin did anything wrong. The Alethi seem rather Machiavellian and would most likely be seen as a savvy even applaudable political move rather than an act of murder and i don't think he could even be tied to it, he hid his tracks pretty well for a spur of the moment action. I believe  if there are any actual consequences from this they will be more personal, anger from Sadeas' wife and his lickspittles most likely and you can expect retaliation but since the camps are basically at dagger points already not much has changed on that front, disapproval from Dalinar as this conflicts with the new Alethkar he is trying to build i imagine the same from Kaladin. The Kaladin before swearing his most recent Oath would have probably approved but Stormblessed 2.0 will most likely side with Dalinar. Jasnah would probably approve though.

But as the son of the leader of the Knights Radiant, I think this scandal might be a bit dangerous for everyone.

I think it'll be interesting to see Kal's inner conflict between doing the morally right thing (defending his best friend) and the legally right thing (righting the wrong of murder). 

[AerionBFII]

59 minutes ago, bleeder said:

But as the son of the leader of the Knights Radiant, I think this scandal might be a bit dangerous for everyone.

I think it'll be interesting to see Kal's inner conflict between doing the morally right thing (defending his best friend) and the legally right thing (righting the wrong of murder). 

That's where the character conflict between Dalinar and Adolin will come into play. Adolin will see it as getting rid of an adversary and an enemy but Dalinar will see it as his son undermining his efforts to make Alethkar a better place. The reason why Adolin did what he did could easily be misconstrued by both characters. I can't imagine Adolin ending up on the chopping block for this but i can easily see it causing friction.

[soyperson]

Just now, AerionBFII said:

That's where the character conflict between Dalinar and Adolin will come into play. Adolin will see it as getting rid of an adversary and an enemy but Dalinar will see it as his son undermining his efforts to make Alethkar a better place. The reason why Adolin did what he did could easily be misconstrued by both characters. I can't imagine Adolin ending up on the chopping block for this but i can easily see it causing friction.

Friction, perhaps... and Progression?

[AerionBFII]

1 hour ago, bleeder said:

But as the son of the leader of the Knights Radiant, I think this scandal might be a bit dangerous for everyone.

I think it'll be interesting to see Kal's inner conflict between doing the morally right thing (defending his best friend) and the legally right thing (righting the wrong of murder). 

Im honestly not sure what Kal's reaction to this will be, before his epiphany with the King he had his own demos with Aamaram so he might be more sympathetic. 

[AerionBFII]

11 minutes ago, bleeder said:

Friction, perhaps... and Progression?

Oh your good... take a bow.

Though it might sadly cause Division. ....

Edited March 9, 2017 by AerionBFII

[iohn]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

Considering the fact Brandon said Adolin had the most surprising, unpredictable and interesting character arc within the book (or was he referring the series, I would need to look again at the right wording), I sincerely doubt he will be executed as I sincerely do not think "dying" would fit the bill. His lack of viewpoints thus does not seem to be linked to a tragic ending.

Throwing in a Secret History / Mistborn spoiler here

Spoiler

Maybe Adolin does end up on the chopping block, gets executed, then continues his crusade in the Tranqueline Halls, or has some cognitive realm adventures Kelsier style.
I mean I know he doesn't currently have access to a shard to pull that kind of move but maybe something comes available to him before the actual day of execution.
My main point is just that we should assume he survives because of a WoB that he continues to have an interesting character arch. (A WoB I also am interested to see as I hadn't seen that before.)

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

1 hour ago, bleeder said:

But as the son of the leader of the Knights Radiant, I think this scandal might be a bit dangerous for everyone.

I think it'll be interesting to see Kal's inner conflict between doing the morally right thing (defending his best friend) and the legally right thing (righting the wrong of murder). 

I doubt Kaladin will care about the legal aspects of it, he will likely decide his stance based on whether he sees what Adolin did as right. The reason why he backed up from the Elhokar plot wasn't because it broke the law, it was because it was wrong to let someone die just because they were incompetent, or for revenge. Adolin did not kill Sadeas out of revenge, he did it out of precaution. Sadeas has already proven that he will do his damnedest to kill Dalinar and as many people around him as he can.

In any case, I find it hard to believe it would break a major alethi law. Remember the assasin when crossing the bridge in WoR that led to Shallan and Kaladin ending in the chasms, and countless nameless soldiers dying? Or the 6000 soldiers killed in the Tower in WoK thanks to Sadeas? He did not seem worried that he would be blamed of any law breaking in those cases, and specially in the assasin case I find it hard to believe he would have a lot more leeway than what Adolin did. As such the conflict from his actions should be more with his family than anything else.

3 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

I believe  if there are any actual consequences from this they will be more personal, anger from Sadeas' wife and his lickspittles most likely and you can expect retaliation but since the camps are basically at dagger points already not much has changed on that front, disapproval from Dalinar as this conflicts with the new Alethkar he is trying to build i imagine the same from Kaladin. 

 

As for this...I have been getting a niggling feeling since WoR that Dalinar should leave Alethkar alone in the mid term, in either Elhokar or Adolin, or anyone else's hands, and focus on restablishing the Knights Radiant. Applying alethi laws to radiants would be absurd in some cases, and similarly some radiant laws could not fit too well with alethi. Mainly as so far it seems mainy details of the laws could be very order specific. And Dalinar will probably have to eventually accept that. At the moment he has an idealistic idea of what he wants to do, but he can't hope to hold Elsecallers or Dustbringers accountable for some things which Windrunners would see as horrific, but which would be standard matters for them.

[AerionBFII]

2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

As for this...I have been getting a niggling feeling since WoR that Dalinar should leave Alethkar alone in the mid term, in either Elhokar or Adolin, or anyone else's hands, and focus on restablishing the Knights Radiant. Applying alethi laws to radiants would be absurd in some cases, and similarly some radiant laws could not fit too well with alethi. Mainly as so far it seems mainy details of the laws could be very order specific. And Dalinar will probably have to eventually accept that. At the moment he has an idealistic idea of what he wants to do, but he can't hope to hold Elsecallers or Dustbringers accountable for some things which Windrunners would see as horrific, but which would be standard matters for them.

You make some excellent points! I believe in the age of the 10 Silver Kingdoms the Original Knights Radiant held themselves separate for this exact reason. It would be a conflict of interests and even with their self imposed removal there were issues and conflicts between the Orders. Trying to impose blanket laws over the separate Orders and regular citizens would be a disaster. Dalinar has always struggled with relinquishing power which is a character floor since he never trusts anybody to do their job properly but i don't think the time is right for him to step back yet. I sympathize with Elhokar, he's not a good king and he tries to do his best but he's not yet ready. I don't think placing Adolin over Elhokar would be such a great idea either but i understand your point. He needs to focus on the Knights Radiant, figuring all this will be an issue which will rear it's head in Oathbringer.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

 

In any case, I find it hard to believe it would break a major alethi law. Remember the assasin when crossing the bridge in WoR that led to Shallan and Kaladin ending in the chasms, and countless nameless soldiers dying? Or the 6000 soldiers killed in the Tower in WoK thanks to Sadeas? He did not seem worried that he would be blamed of any law breaking in those cases, and specially in the assasin case I find it hard to believe he would have a lot more leeway than what Adolin did. As such the conflict from his actions should be more with his family than anything else.

 

Ah, but it wasn't the same thing in front of the law, because Sadeas could claim innocent on both counts - granted, they were paper-thin excuses, and everyone knew it was him, but there was just enough plausible deniability for his needs. and being unable to pin him down, the alethi pretended he was innocent. there are instances in the book where adolin himself remarks on this: everyone knew sadeas did it at the tower, but if adolin punched him, the law would side with sadeas.