Khyrindor

Narrowing Down the Last Shards [AU]

165 posts in this topic

Hello friends. I've been thinking a lot about Shards over the last month or so, especially in advent of the upcoming Q&A on Reddit. It's been a while since I've seen one of these, so I figure there's no harm in putting this out there again (especially in light of new reveals in AU). I want to think about Shards, and possibly narrow down the six remaining Shards, and I would love some input from you guys (I've been driving my family crazy with questions on their thoughts in the last couple days).

Firstly, here's what we know. 

  • We know ten of the sixteen Shards of Adonalsuim. Listed in order of reveal/publicity, they are Devotion, Dominion, Preservation, Ruin, Endowment, Honor, Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, and Ambition.
  • We know that Odium Splintered at least four Shards. We now know all four: Ambition, Devotion, Dominion, and Honor.
  • Odium had a 'hit-list', and Ambition was #1.
  • There is a Shard that just wants to hide and survive, but that Shard's intent is not 'Survival'.
  • There is a Shard that is not on a planet. (This could refer to Ambition, depending on where it was finished off.) There are two Shards that aren't on a planet, Ambition, and one other.

Here's some stuff we're I'm pretty sure about/think we know. (Please let me know if any of these suppositions were confirmed)

  • Shards are based somewhat on "divine attributes" of a god figure.
  • Shards have an opposite pairing, but most are not clear opposites.*

* There's been a lot of discussion involving this, and it's looking more and more unlikely that there are pairings of Shards. However, since it's somewhat simple to use that supposition as a format for now, if nothing else.

Here's some supposition/speculation I make on the information above.

  • If the sixteen Shards of Adonalsium were all combined, the result would be a god figure. Because of this, we can assume that there are likely no duplicates (for example, there wouldn't be a Shard of Immutability, as Preservation already fills that role).

Now onto the Big List.

I'm going to attempt to fill in this list of Shards and their pairings, and I will update this list with our guesses. Confirmed Shards will be in Red, guesses will be green. Confirmed pairing will be bold, highly likely will be italicized, and unsure I will leave plain. Here goes.

 

Preservation                 Ruin

Dominion                Autonomy

Odium                      Devotion*

Endowment            Ambition**

Honor                Absolution?***

Cultivation               Tribulation

Enlightenment             Enigma

Purity****                Synthesis?

On the Odium/Devotion pairing. I put this one up because Odium is defined by hatred and jealousy, whereas Devotion is stuff like love and service. I find it to be a likely pair, but a good argument can be made for and Honor/Odium mashup as well.

** On the Endowment/Ambition pair, I find this one a bit of a stretch, I'll admit. It comes from the thought process of Endowment being giving to others, and Ambition looking to receive. It's a tenuous connection, but I'll leave it here for the time being until we find a better candidate.

*** One of the possible Shards my family came up with is Mercy (or forgiveness) EDIT: Absolution involves both of these, also, you can be absolved of burdens and Oaths. It's also a God attribute so I like it better. I'm still not too sure I like it as a whole. I like the idea that it's a possible opposite to Honor, because the way we've seen Honor act sounds like a Judgement type, dealing heavily with Oaths. Forgiveness and Mercy sometimes happens in Honorable people in SA, but I haven't seen it represented in a Shard (though there is a case to be made that Endowment or Cultivation could involve it).

**** Purity seems like a likely Shard to me. We haven't seen a Shard that represents the righteousness or holiness of god, and I think there's an argument to be made that Purity could fill those shoes. There is also a planet named Purity in the Threnodite System that breaks the pattern of funeral songs like the other planets.

Now, let's discuss. Please bring forward an idea of the remaining six shards. Even feel free to argue my pairings if you like. Please keep in mind these things on looking for Shard possibilities.

  1. Divine attributes separated from the virtues that give them context (as Hoid would say).
  2. Attributes that aren't shared in another Shard.
  3. Shards that wouldn't logically be higher on Odium's hit-list that Ambition. Otherwise he would have targeted them first.

Edit 1: Added Tribulation, added confirmed information about Ambition and the other Shard without a home.

Edit 2: Absolution instead of Mercy, added Synthesis as an opposite of Purity.

 

Edited by Khyrindor
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I actually disagree with this premise:

8 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:
  • Shards have an opposite pairing, but most are not clear opposites.

If I recall my WoBs correctly, we only know that some Shards can be considered pairs. If true, I think it invalidates a lot of your theory. I do like Mercy and Purity as Shards though - or maybe a single Shard. 

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I've always enjoyed the idea of love being a shard. All the intents seem to be a driving human force, and what driving force is greater than love? That and some sort of scholarly intent that might be helping out silver light in some way

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I'm confused.  Where did Enlightenment and Enigma come from?  Are they just guesses, or am I missing something?

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Just now, Argent said:

I actually disagree with this premise:

If I recall my WoBs correctly, we only know that some Shards can be considered pairs. If true, I think it invalidates a lot of your theory. I do like Mercy and Purity as Shards though - or maybe a single Shard. 

I have thought about that. The WoB I think you're talking about was mostly a RAFO, but it went on to say that "Not all of them are clear opposites like Ruin and Preservation."

It could be a matter of interpretation, but I've been thinking about how to word that into a question that won't be RAFO'd (maybe it's been long enough that he'll be willing to answer). If you're right, then we have less of a way to figure out Shards, beyond the process of elimination. 

That would explain why Brandon's been pretty fuzzy on Odium's 'opposite'; it might be that there aren't any real opposites.

I guess we'll just have to ask and find out ;)

1 minute ago, The Flash said:

I've always enjoyed the idea of love being a shard. All the intents seem to be a driving human force, and what driving force is greater than love? That and some sort of scholarly intent that might be helping out silver light in some way

I've thought of Love being a Shard as well, but I usually put it within the realms of Devotion, as they are quite similar. I remember some old WoBs from before people had pulled 'Devotion' out of Brandon, but he'd been trying to narrow down Devotion's Intent for a while, and one of the possibilities IIRC was 'Love'. For this reason, it seems unlikely (to me) but Brandon could have liked the idea and moved it to another world.

On Silverlight: I've never liked the idea of Silverlight having a Shard (at least not of the ilk that we know). The reason being is that Silverlight is the home base of the 17th Shard. Why would they call themselves the 17th Shard if they're already powered by one of the 16?

However, the scholarly intent Shard that you mentioned could be Enlightenment, which I have on my list.

1 minute ago, Markus said:

I'm confused.  Where did Enlightenment and Enigma come from?  Are they just guesses, or am I missing something?

They're guesses. Confirmed are in red, guesses are in green. I find these Shards to be likely candidates following the pattern of godlike attributes; two big ones that we don't have yet are god's all-knowingness, and god's mystery, which I put on my list as Enlightenment and Enigma.

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4 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Hello friends. I've been thinking a lot about Shards over the last month or so, especially in advent of the upcoming Q&A on Reddit.

  • There is a Shard that is not on a planet. (This could refer to Ambition, depending on where it was finished off.)

Here's some stuff we're pretty sure about/think we know. (Please let me know if any of these suppositions were confirmed)

  • Shards have an opposite pairing, but most are not clear opposites.

*** One of the possible Shards my family came up with is Mercy (or forgiveness). I like the idea that it's a possible opposite to Honor, because the way we've seen Honor act sounds like a Judgement type, dealing heavily with Oaths. Forgiveness and Mercy sometimes happens in Honorable people in SA, but I haven't seen it represented in a Shard (though there is a case to be made that Endowment or Cultivation could involve it).

A couple things to note:

  • A Reddit AMA happened on Feb 10th. Just so you're aware, there might be nothing happening on Mar 10th.
  • Ambition is not the Shard that Brandon had previously hinted at, which wasn't on a planet. I specifically asked this question on the AU tour; Brandon was clear that there are two Shards that aren't on planets, Ambition and one other one.
  • I think your methodology of assigning Shardpairs is inherently flawed. Odium could have had many opposites, and Honor could have even been a natural pairing. 'Not all Shards have perfect opposites' doesn't necessarily mean that they have opposites that just aren't intuitive; I think it means the relationship is more complex than paired opposites. I think the key takeaway is that the Intents of Shards are in conflict. Together, they compose a well-balanced breakfast being. But, when you split them up, you start to get these individual attributes driving towards goals that are extremely conflicting. Some of them, like Ruin and Preservation, are inherently Ying/Yang-y, with exact opposites, but some like Odium might need to be tempered in many ways, and be very prone to abuse outside of an appropriate context.
  • Devotion, as a synonym for love, might include Mercy. (I like how we can finally understand the irony in the question, that the questioner thought Devotion could be Aona's Shard when it was actually Skai's.)

That all being said...

If you're gonna tie Ambition to something like 'hope,' then I can kind of see where you're going. I think we need a better definition on some of these Shards, namely Autonomy and Ambition, before we go too far down this road.

I like where you're going with Autonomy/Dominion, but I think Frost holds a Shard of Non-Intervention (one of my many crazy ideas), so I interpret Autonomy as much more of a... personality of God, I guess. As C.S. Lewis wrote about Aslan, 'he's not a tame lion.' So, I'd push Autonomy out of that slot. Or maybe pair Non-Intervention with Cultivation or Endowment.

Enlightenment is an excellent Silverlight Shard, and I like the name you've chosen. I was going with Revelation in my ideas, but that one's good, too.

I've long tossed around Justice, which I think fits with your idea of Purity. A lot of people react to that by throwing Skybreaker comparisons and saying it's a part of Honor, but I think it's too broad an understanding of Honor that would encompass that. Honor is keeping promises; the Skybreakers keep promises for Justice, the Elsecallers keep promises for Enlightenment, the Windrunners keep promises for protection (or Devotion, maybe?). Just because the Skybreakers are just doesn't mean that Honor encompasses Justice.

Tribulation is another one I've thrown around that could be an opposite face of Cultivation. Cultivation grows things to make them stronger, Tribulation tests things to make them stronger.

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If there was Purity maybe it can be a pair for Odium? Also for pair of Autonomy maybe something like Collectivism (or anything for society) ?

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4 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

A couple things to note:

  • A Reddit AMA happened on Feb 10th. Just so you're aware, there might be nothing happening on Mar 10th.
  • Ambition is not the Shard that Brandon had previously hinted at, which wasn't on a planet. I specifically asked this question on the AU tour; Brandon was clear that there are two Shards that aren't on planets, Ambition and one other one.
  • I think your methodology of assigning Shardpairs is inherently flawed. Odium could have had many opposites, and Honor could have even been a natural pairing. 'Not all Shards have perfect opposites' doesn't necessarily mean that they have opposites that just aren't intuitive; I think it means the relationship is more complex than paired opposites. I think the key takeaway is that the Intents of Shards are in conflict. Together, they compose a well-balanced breakfast being. But, when you split them up, you start to get these individual attributes driving towards goals that are extremely conflicting. Some of them, like Ruin and Preservation, are inherently Ying/Yang-y, with exact opposites, but some like Odium might need to be tempered in many ways, and be very prone to abuse outside of an appropriate context.
  • Devotion, as a synonym for love, might include Mercy. (I like how we can finally understand the irony in the question, that the questioner thought Devotion could be Aona's Shard when it was actually Skai's.)
  • I know about that AMA, but I thought I saw somewhere that they would do both, as one was a non-cosmere Q&A and we'd already set up the other? It may have been someone's hope that I remember though, not sure. shall hold out hope that there will be one, at least. 
  • Sweet! I'll edit the OP with that info, thank you. That one wasn't in the database that I could find yet, which is why I didn't remember it.
  • That's the best description I've seen of that yet, and I think I like it. The only problem I see though is that, if Odium needs that many things to 'temper' it, then wouldn't that make him stronger than most Shards by himself? I might be thinking with my flawed reasoning still. Was the accepted headcanon still 'pairings' or was that formally debunked? 
  • I think you got Aona and Skai mixed up there. And on Mercy being included in Devotion...I'm not sure I'm convinced. I can see how they might be similar, but they are two wholly separate things in my mind. Devotion means "love, loyalty, and being enthusiastic to a person, activity, or cause" and also has to do with religious worship, whereas mercy means "compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it's within one's power to punish or harm." The only parallel I see is between compassion and love, but the compassion isn't a syllable to mercy in itself.
26 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

If you're gonna tie Ambition to something like 'hope,' then I can kind of see where you're going. I think we need a better definition on some of these Shards, namely Autonomy and Ambition, before we go too far down this road.

I like where you're going with Autonomy/Dominion, but I think Frost holds a Shard of Non-Intervention (one of my many crazy ideas), so I interpret Autonomy as much more of a... personality of God, I guess. As C.S. Lewis wrote about Aslan, 'he's not a tame lion.' So, I'd push Autonomy out of that slot. Or maybe pair Non-Intervention with Cultivation or Endowment.

Enlightenment is an excellent Silverlight Shard, and I like the name you've chosen. I was going with Revelation in my ideas, but that one's good, too.

I've long tossed around Justice, which I think fits with your idea of Purity. A lot of people react to that by throwing Skybreaker comparisons and saying it's a part of Honor, but I think it's too broad an understanding of Honor that would encompass that. Honor is keeping promises; the Skybreakers keep promises for Justice, the Elsecallers keep promises for Enlightenment, the Windrunners keep promises for protection (or Devotion, maybe?). Just because the Skybreakers are just doesn't mean that Honor encompasses Justice.

Tribulation is another one I've thrown around that could be an opposite face of Cultivation. Cultivation grows things to make them stronger, Tribulation tests things to make them stronger.

  • The Ambition/Endowment pairing that I'd made more uses the opposites of 'giving yourself up to others' as opposed to 'taking of others for yourself,' not as a 'hope' thing. Also, yes, ugh, Autonomy frustrates me so much, especially after reading White Sand. Bavadin seems to act against her Shard's Intent almost constantly.
  • think that Frost was confirmed to not be holding a Shard, back when people were figuring out who the letter was being written to. I think Brandon said "It's not a Shard, it's someone on Yolen," etc. Also, the fact that Frost says 'join me in my oath on non-intervention' makes it sound more voluntary than anything. I could see something like non-intervention or Autonomy being paired with Cultivation, however.
  • Enlightenment was my dad's idea. I was thinking Wisdom or Knowledge but yeah, it's totally better. As I said in my last post, I'm still not convinced Silverlight has a Shard on it, as that would take away their claims at being the 17th Shard. Though, if there is a Shard of Enlightenment, I would bet that the 17th Shard would have their hands on some Investiture at the very least. It is possible that the 17th Shard has some pure Adonalsium Investiture or something like that, that they've given a command on Non-Intervention to, and that's their "17th Shard." idea.
  • Do you mean to say Justice as an 'opposite' of Purity? I admit I'm usually one of those people who likes to tie in Justice with Honor, but your explanation of there being other Orders that follows the pattern makes sense. If there were a Shard of Justice, or even Retribution, I'd expect it to be paired with Mercy or Forgiveness. One thing I would like to say though, is that Retribution or Justice would be the result of a combination of Honor and Odium.
  • I think I'll add Tribulation to the list for now, it's a better idea than anything I've thought of as a Cultivation pair.
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Wasn't there a WoB talking about the shard on Ashyn? It wasn't a direct identification, but it made it sound like the shard was Self-contradiction or paradox. And considering what little we know about the magic system on Ashyn (The Silence Divine) that really would make sense. 

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I like where this is going. I'll keep thinking on it but for now:

I agree we have no confirmation that all Shards are basically paired but i also think it's a natural and sensible way to think through it.

My instinct is that Honor is paired with Betrayal or Unreliability or something better worded than that. And that Justice is different to Honor. Honor is about binding and consistency. Justice is about, for want of a better word, Karma. I think Justice goes with Mercy, Honor with Betrayal, and they seem like natural attributes.

I like Purity and perhaps it could match with something like Amalgamation or Combination (I'm not using words good but something showing that purity can be a useful trait but so can hybridisation basically). 

Some other spitballing. Consistency. Variability. Enlightenment. Tradition/conservatism/Belief.

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13 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:
  • I think you got Aona and Skai mixed up there. And on Mercy being included in Devotion...I'm not sure I'm convinced. I can see how they might be similar, but they are two wholly separate things in my mind. Devotion means "love, loyalty, and being enthusiastic to a person, activity, or cause" and also has to do with religious worship, whereas mercy means "compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it's within one's power to punish or harm." The only parallel I see is between compassion and love, but the compassion isn't a syllable to mercy in itself.
  • think that Frost was confirmed to not be holding a Shard, back when people were figuring out who the letter was being written to. I think Brandon said "It's not a Shard, it's someone on Yolen," etc. Also, the fact that Frost says 'join me in my oath on non-intervention' makes it sound more voluntary than anything. I could see something like non-intervention or Autonomy being paired with Cultivation, however.
  • Enlightenment was my dad's idea. I was thinking Wisdom or Knowledge but yeah, it's totally better. As I said in my last post, I'm still not convinced Silverlight has a Shard on it, as that would take away their claims at being the 17th Shard. Though, if there is a Shard of Enlightenment, I would bet that the 17th Shard would have their hands on some Investiture at the very least. It is possible that the 17th Shard has some pure Adonalsium Investiture or something like that, that they've given a command on Non-Intervention to, and that's their "17th Shard." idea.
  • Do you mean to say Justice as an 'opposite' of Purity? I admit I'm usually one of those people who likes to tie in Justice with Honor, but your explanation of there being other Orders that follows the pattern makes sense. If there were a Shard of Justice, or even Retribution, I'd expect it to be paired with Mercy or Forgiveness. One thing I would like to say though, is that Retribution or Justice would be the result of a combination of Honor and Odium.
  • Whoops, my mistake, I typed Devotion instead of Dominion. I'll fix that eventually. Devotion, the way you describe it, flows from the worshipper to the worshipped; and I think that's tied very much in with Odium, he wants to be worshipped and wants no one else to be worshipped. Flowing from the divine down to the mortal, you get love, grace, mercy, all that stuff rolled together in devotion, God wanting to do good things for his people. So, I've got an opposite polarity on Devotion than you do.
  • I've looked very closely. We do not have official confirmation either way of Frost's status as a Vessel. I think that, if Hoid's looking for help against Odium, he'll be writing to Shards. We'll see who the Third Letter is addressed to soon enough... but I do see your point, and I'm not insisting that Frost is a Shard. That's just my personal hypothesis.
  • Why do you equate the Seventeenth Shard and Silverlight? Silverlight has universities and sends expeditions to various places. The Seventeenth Shard is an organization that doesn't want Investiture to mix. Khriss is based out of Silveright, and she often works with the Seventeenth Shard so far as their goals align, but that doesn't mean the two are necessarily one and the same. So, I don't think Silverlight being built on a Shard precludes the Seventeenth Shard from calling themselves that.
  • Justice and Purity, in my mind, are both tied to the underlying concept of absolute morality. Something is inherently right or wrong. Purity has more of a positive tack, while Justice would be concerned with what happens when morality is broken. But they could easily be two aspects of the same Shard. Morality seems like too straightforward of a Shard name, though, for that idea... maybe Conscience?
6 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Wasn't there a WoB talking about the shard on Ashyn? It wasn't a direct identification, but it made it sound like the shard was Self-contradiction or paradox. And considering what little we know about the magic system on Ashyn (The Silence Divine) that really would make sense. 

I think that was if Alcatraz had a Shard. There are three Shards in the Roshar system, and we know all three of them.

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Wouldn't Cultivation and Ruin be better opposites than Preservation and Ruin? Bothe deal with change but in opposite directions while Preservation would be contrasted by any change, which both Cultivation and Ruin exhibit.

Also don't get the pairing of Cultivation and Tribulation.

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1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:
  • Devotion, as a synonym for love, might include Mercy. (I like how we can finally understand the irony in the question, that the questioner thought Devotion could be Aona's Shard when it was actually Skai's.)

Ha. Hahah. Silly @Chaos, how young and innocent you were :D

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Actually I got to throw a wrench in all of this.

For example, "technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation". So Preservation, Ruin and Cultivation form a triangle. Each one of them can be viewed as opposite to any of the other two.

Furthermore, it's impossible to think of a fourth Shard to make that triangle a square.

But the most deal-breaking thing is the WoB that says there could be at most four pairings of opposite... which I can't find right now but I'm 99,99% sure there was one since I told somebody Brandon said that and I don't do that unless I'm 100% sure.

As-of-right-now-not-backed-up-please-stop-telling-me-to-source-it-I-am-already-seraching

Edited by Oversleep
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4 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Actually I got to throw a wrench in all of this.

For example, "technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation". So Preservation, Ruin and Cultivation form a triangle. Each one of them can be viewed as opposite to any of the other two.

Furthermore, it's impossible to think of a fourth Shard to make that triangle a square.

But the most deal-breaking thing is the WoB that says there could be at most four pairings of opposite... which I can't find right now but I'm 99,99% sure there was one since I told somebody Brandon said that and I don't do that unless I'm 100% sure.

Yeah, I'm gonna need to see the actual wrench on that one. Saying 'Ruin is compatible with Cultivation' doesn't translate into 'Ruin and Cultivation are opposites' in my mind, not by a long shot. (I think I agree with the underlying principle you're getting at, that the relationships between Shards are more complicated than opposite extremes of eight fundamental ideas. But Ruin and Preservation are perfect, polar opposites, regardless of how either of them would play with Cultivation.)

And I have no memory of the 'four pairs' quote, so I'd love to see a source for that one. Citing yourself as a reliable source... well, to the rest of us, that's still hearsay.

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7 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Actually I got to throw a wrench in all of this.

For example, "technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation". So Preservation, Ruin and Cultivation form a triangle. Each one of them can be viewed as opposite to any of the other two.

Furthermore, it's impossible to think of a fourth Shard to make that triangle a square.

But the most deal-breaking thing is the WoB that says there could be at most four pairings of opposite... which I can't find right now but I'm 99,99% sure there was one since I told somebody Brandon said that and I don't do that unless I'm 100% sure.

I'd love to see that WoB if you can find it. The only one I could find is below  which doesn't mention a limit of 4 but certainly implies there is a limit.

Quote

QUESTION

What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the [board? Borg?]

BRANDON SANDERSON

There are several that could be considered opposite--

QUESTION

I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, which one would want to join with him?

QUESTION

Or any of them.

BRANDON SANDERSON

*pause* I think that *long pause/picks up after next question* I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted.

 

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Just now, Pagerunner said:

And I have no memory of the 'four pairs' quote, so I'd love to see a source for that one. Citing yourself as a reliable source... well, to the rest of us, that's still hearsay.

That's why I wrote that commentary. Because I know it is hearsay and I've got trouble finding it.

It's certainly from 2015 or earlier since I invoked it on January 1st 2016. The thing is, the takeway was there could be at most four pairs but the WoB didn't necessarily include word "four"...

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@ZenBossanova IIRC, the Shard from Silence Divine was called Decay, which Mr. Sanderson changed to Ruin and moved to Scadrial. I don't think there are any more Shards in the Rosharan system besides Honor, Cultivation, and Odium, otherwise they would have talked about it in Arcanum Unbounded. Anything in Silence Divine is technically not canon, but I admit I haven't read that one yet, so I'm not sure where you're going with the powers seeming contradictory. Paradox does sound similar to my idea of Enigma/Mystery, though.

4 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:
  • Whoops, my mistake, I typed Devotion instead of Dominion. I'll fix that eventually. Devotion, the way you describe it, flows from the worshipper to the worshipped; and I think that's tied very much in with Odium, he wants to be worshipped and wants no one else to be worshipped. Flowing from the divine down to the mortal, you get love, grace, mercy, all that stuff rolled together in devotion, God wanting to do good things for his people. So, I've got an opposite polarity on Devotion than you do.
  • I've looked very closely. We do not have official confirmation either way of Frost's status as a Vessel. I think that, if Hoid's looking for help against Odium, he'll be writing to Shards. We'll see who the Third Letter is addressed to soon enough... but I do see your point, and I'm not insisting that Frost is a Shard. That's just my personal hypothesis.
  • Why do you equate the Seventeenth Shard and Silverlight? Silverlight has universities and sends expeditions to various places. The Seventeenth Shard is an organization that doesn't want Investiture to mix. Khriss is based out of Silveright, and she often works with the Seventeenth Shard so far as their goals align, but that doesn't mean the two are necessarily one and the same. So, I don't think Silverlight being built on a Shard precludes the Seventeenth Shard from calling themselves that.
  • Justice and Purity, in my mind, are both tied to the underlying concept of absolute morality. Something is inherently right or wrong. Purity has more of a positive tack, while Justice would be concerned with what happens when morality is broken. But they could easily be two aspects of the same Shard. Morality seems like too straightforward of a Shard name, though, for that idea... maybe Conscience?
  • Sorry, I'm not quite sure where you're going with the last bit of that...Please clarify.
  • I am so looking forward to that letter. I'm gonna hunt some of those WoB's as well.
  • Fair enough, for some reason I'd mashed them together in my head.
  • I like where this is going. I was just thinking a bit more on a possible synonym for Mercy and Forgiveness, and I found Absolution which can really include justice, forgiveness, mercy, and possibly even righteousness all in one. For some reason I don't like the thought of an "Absolution" Shard though. But maybe something very similar. Would also make a good 'opposite' of Honor, as you could use it do Absolve Oaths.
19 minutes ago, Extesian said:

I like where this is going. I'll keep thinking on it but for now:

I agree we have no confirmation that all Shards are basically paired but i also think it's a natural and sensible way to think through it.

My instinct is that Honor is paired with Betrayal or Unreliability or something better worded than that. And that Justice is different to Honor. Honor is about binding and consistency. Justice is about, for want of a better word, Karma. I think Justice goes with Mercy, Honor with Betrayal, and they seem like natural attributes.

I like Purity and perhaps it could match with something like Amalgamation or Combination (I'm not using words good but something showing that purity can be a useful trait but so can hybridisation basically). 

Some other spitballing. Consistency. Variability. Enlightenment. Tradition/conservatism/Belief.

Yeah, I don't know how I'd make a comprehensive and simple list without doing it this way. I'll probably keep it how it is until we have confirmation.

I've thought of the obvious Betrayal and such, but if we're looking for "god attributes" they don't seem like likely Shards. A view of god is obviously different from person to person, so perhaps we shouldn't delve too deeply into what that might be...

I like Amalgamation, but I'm not sure if it's 'encompassing' enough to fit a Shard. I think it's along the right lines though.

(Enlightenment was on my list by the way...) :P

4 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Actually I got to throw a wrench in all of this.

For example, "technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation". So Preservation, Ruin and Cultivation form a triangle. Each one of them can be viewed as opposite to any of the other two.

Furthermore, it's impossible to think of a fourth Shard to make that triangle a square.

But the most deal-breaking thing is the WoB that says there could be at most four pairings of opposite... which I can't find right now but I'm 99,99% sure there was one since I told somebody Brandon said that and I don't do that unless I'm 100% sure.

I'm with @Pagerunner on wanting a source on that. 

And with the Ruin/Cultivation thing, the words he said were "compatible" not "opposite," and I think it means Intent-wise, the two would have been compatible because their Intents lined up, but I don't think that that means they're pairs. Especially since Ruin and Preservation are basically confirmed.

UNLESS there is a confirmation in there being groups of four, then I could see Cultivation being in the same group as Ruin and Preservation, with whoever else is her 'opposite'.

If there is a confirmation on that though, I'll update OP to be in groups of four instead of two, and honestly I might like that a bit better anyway.

 

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32 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Actually I got to throw a wrench in all of this.

For example, "technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation". So Preservation, Ruin and Cultivation form a triangle. Each one of them can be viewed as opposite to any of the other two.

Furthermore, it's impossible to think of a fourth Shard to make that triangle a square.

A shard which desires change without a net increase or decrease of what exists? That would directly contrast Preservation.

 

20 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

 

And with the Ruin/Cultivation thing, the words he said were "compatible" not "opposite," and I think it means Intent-wise, the two would have been compatible because their Intents lined up, but I don't think that that means they're pairs. Especially since Ruin and Preservation are basically confirmed.

When you say they're basically confirmed as a pair, are you referring to the fact that they were both on Scadrial? Because I don't see how that confirms that they are the best pair of opposites. Like I said, wouldn't Cultivation and Preservation have the same opposition?

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6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

When you say they're basically confirmed as a pair, are you referring to the fact that they were both on Scadrial? Because I don't see how that confirms that they are the best pair of opposites. Like I said, wouldn't Cultivation and Preservation have the same opposition?

Preservation and Ruin are closer opposites than either C/P or R/C. Ruin seeks the destruction of all things. If he had his way, he'd have broken down everything to it's most basic state. Preservation wishes for nothing to be destroyed or be changed, and if he had his way, nothing would age or break down, and the would would be a snapshot of a moment frozen in time. Cultivation could be seen as related, but the way I see her is more of a manipulative change, having to do with grooming people into the thing you want them to be, or how you would cut and grow different parts of a shrub in order for it to look the way you want. It's not as clear-cut of an opposite of either of them, which leads me to think logically about it: Why would the paired shards be two that are somewhat close, rather than two that are exact opposites? Plus there's the "basically confirmed" bit that I was talking about where Brandon refers to them as opposites in different places.

All this is out the window if pairings and opposites aren't even a thing, obviously.

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So I’ll have a go at this, I’m inclined to agree that rather than being pairings, there are groupings of four. I’m basing this loosely on the categories of the 16 metals, and all this is pure speculation, and despite me not thinking its pairings I’ve gone ahead and done opposites. It’s really just to clarify my thoughts.

Hopefully it will prompt others to do a more useful analysis and I expect my ‘new’ shards to be picked apart. As should my categorization. But it may be a different way of looking at this and I’d love to hear views.

 

Cognitive

Honor – the obligation to do what you say you will do, to be consistent

Variability – to be inconsistent, to change from moment to moment

Enlightenment – to seek knowledge and understanding

Belief – to have unchanging views

 

Spiritual/emotional

Devotion – to give up yourself for others

Odium – to hate

Purity – to be of one kind

Amalgamation – to be of many kinds

 

Physical

Endowment – to give something to others

Appropriation? – to take something from others

Autonomy – to have control of yourself

Dominion – to have control of others

 

Temporal

Cultivation – to work on something other than yourself

Ambition – to work on yourself

Preservation – to never change, inertia

Ruin – to break things down, entropy

 

edit: i hope the formatting is ok. It looks like chaos on my phone. And of course these are not all my ideas, especially enlightenment. But i feel categorizing may help figure out what could be missing.

Edited by Extesian
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Why has nobody picked Fortune? I thought that one was 99% certain.

Or has Fortune been debunked?

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44 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:
Spoiler

 

Preservation and Ruin are closer opposites than either C/P or R/C. Ruin seeks the destruction of all things. If he had his way, he'd have broken down everything to it's most basic state. Preservation wishes for nothing to be destroyed or be changed, and if he had his way, nothing would age or break down, and the would would be a snapshot of a moment frozen in time. Cultivation could be seen as related, but the way I see her is more of a manipulative change, having to do with grooming people into the thing you want them to be, or how you would cut and grow different parts of a shrub in order for it to look the way you want. It's not as clear-cut of an opposite of either of them, which leads me to think logically about it: Why would the paired shards be two that are somewhat close, rather than two that are exact opposites? Plus there's the "basically confirmed" bit that I was talking about where Brandon refers to them as opposites in different places.

All this is out the window if pairings and opposites aren't even a thing, obviously.

 

 

So Cultivation is about positive change and improving things yes? So why wouldn't Preservation be as opposed to that as it is to Ruin? 

We see that Preservation did approve of Rashek keeping the Final Empire at a standstill technologically, so it seems it is against social and technological improvement as well.

Also, I think the idea of such clear opposites is flawed in any case.

@Thanatos

What do yoy mean by Fortune? If you mean luck, I don't see how that would work as a shard intent.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

I've looked very closely. We do not have official confirmation either way of Frost's status as a Vessel.

The closest thing I could find is this.

Quote
I was thinking more along the lines of the Shard who does not have a planet.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Shards transcend these definitions.

Argent

They're kind of Worldhoppers by default.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

This is only relevant because of the "Frost is not a Worldhopper" WoB people keep bringing up that I could never manage to find...

 

1 minute ago, Thanatos said:

Why has nobody picked Fortune? I thought that one was 99% certain.

Or has Fortune been debunked?

Fairly certain that was debunked. Fortune is (in some way) the underlying principle of Chromium Feruchemy, and possibly Hoid's special ability to know where to be, among other things. It's just a Cosmere mechanic of magic.

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Ill have to reread secret histories to see the context of the word.

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