TWD - Chapter 02 - kaisa 02/20/16 (V, L) 4419 words

[kais]

Oh ho, it’s chapter two! Meant to be a breather and world building chapter before the plot kicks back up too much. Most interested to know if the tension is holding, even though I’m trying to ease back from the shock of chapter one. This is also the ‘if-you-completely-missed-the-deal-with-S-in-chapter-one-now-you-get-beat-over-the-head-with-it’ chapter. You’re welcome.

TWD, which is likely not its final title, is dark adult fantasy. This is draft zero. I’m sorry for that. Everything and anything is open to edits, but at this stage LBLs are less useful than overall feelings about tension, character development, text flow, etc. This is also my first experiment with first person, so be warned there. Also be warned that I am delving much deeper into #ownvoices land with the protag than I usually do. 

This chapter is gore free, @Ernei. It doesn't really have language or violence in it, either, but I kind of feel like those tags should just always be on my work, especially the language one.

[aeromancer]

TAIG: Hmm Weak chapter start. Severed hand = good. Boat taking on water = bad. Her title is ‘woodcutter’s daughter’? That’s a bit weird for an alchemist, unless the mother isn’t an alchemist (so then, what is she?) You have lake vs river inconsistencies, and, um, what’s in the lake/river? I mean, sharks? Gators? Neither of which are particularly dangerous, so I’m not sure what the threat is. I’m not getting anything from the drowning sequence. Also piranhas can strip the flesh from a human’s bones in under thirty seconds. Nasty buggers. Also, ‘stab’ is a right word for sword. As is ‘slash’ ‘impale’ ‘jab’, etc. I don’t think S would be assigned a sword, though.

Thoughts: I’m not sure I saw any character progression on S, though I wasn’t really looking for it because I kept getting distracted by the lake. What’s the threat? The part that interested me was the politics that are hinted to come into play when the woodcutter’s guild goes down. I dabble in game theory, so I’d be very interested to see the resulting power struggle, or at least the moves of a power struggle as a result. Also, I’m going to complain about the name woodcutter. True, most of their abilities are plant-derived, but there’s nothing wrong with the name alchemist, especially if they’re all going to be called witches anyways.

[kais]

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

Four hours without a toilet break?

So on these boat rides I take in the Amazon to reach some of the sites we are on the boat for sometimes eight hours at a go. No breaks, and you sure don't try it over the side. So. Uncomfortable.

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

that S. seems a bit too old

Going to ask you to hang in for a few more chapters. S is purposefully old, so at some point I will ask if the age works with the information you have finally, or if it still clashes. 

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

The vomiting feels kina forced.

I'll take this one out. There's another next chapter anyway and I had worried they might be redundant.

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

T. hasn't introduced.

Ack, I thought I caught all these. Thanks!

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

S. got pushed into water, but doesn't question why

It was because the rudder master explained why, but that might have been too subtle. I'll tweak

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

The money here seems easy to forge.

Meh, that I can swap out easily for a better idea later. It's a placeholder, nothing more

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

I'm also not entirely convinced by the panic attack, TBH. I understand that this is the ownvoices thing, but at the very least - the following is the best analogy for me that I could come up with - if I were hungry, I wouldn't care if someone mistook me for a man. Food would take precedence. Maybe the narrator isn't that hungry, though.

The issue is likely I'm not showing enough of S's emotion, which is a persistent problem for me in writing characters. The panic attack is very real, as is gender dysphoria. I'm just not conveying it well it looks like. To take your example and put it in context, there are literally some forms of clothes I would rather kill myself than be seen in. That's not hyperbole. I put on a sweater recently that I thought looked okay online and had a legit sobbing fit on the floor of my room, where no one was even there to see me, because it was more feminine than I'd thought and I hated what it made me look like. On something as small as hunger, my appearance would by far take precedent if my appearance was not aligning with my internal needs.

But yes, this section needs work for sure.

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

What name did the narrator swallow?

I'm going out of my way to not directly give away who the Royal Daughter is. That may have to be changed if this sticks with too many people.

On 2/20/2017 at 10:47 AM, Ernei said:

but I was a bit lost about the guilds. I didn't take them for that important. I'd like to have a bit more insight on the politics before this happened.

Not much time to world build yet. It's coming though, I promise! Thank you for the feedback!

 

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

Weak chapter start.

I agree completely. Already edited

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

S's title is ‘woodcutter’s daughter’? That’s a bit weird for an alchemist, unless the mother isn’t an alchemist (so then, what is she?)

Well no, S's mother is a woodcutter. It occurs to me you may have missed chapter one, if so this would be immensely confusing. S doesn't want to follow in the family tradition, basically.

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

lake vs river inconsistencies

Gah! Fixing

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

so I’m not sure what the threat is

Defined later, so hopefully that helped some

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

I’m not getting anything from the drowning sequence.

I pulled it out more, per @Ernei's comment

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

Also piranhas can strip the flesh from a human’s bones in under thirty seconds.

I think I was unclear as to what was happening here. They can, but that doesn't mean they will, especially if taken by surprise. I've edited (and also swum with piranha one too many times, and also kicked an anaconda in a lake by accident so let me tell you, both are horrifying).

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

character progression on S

Progression? Hrm, I was aiming more for clarification. Did that happen?

On 2/20/2017 at 2:04 PM, aeromancer said:

Also, I’m going to complain about the name woodcutter. True, most of their abilities are plant-derived, but there’s nothing wrong with the name alchemist, especially if they’re all going to be called witches anyways.

These are all distinctly different guilds. Maybe I should sub the guild list with my entry for next week?

 

Thank you!!

Edited February 22, 2017 by kaisa

[rdpulfer]

- This is a great way to start a chapter.

- "Not so with a real Queensguard."

- I really like the repetition of "This wasn't me." It's very effective at raising the emotional stakes.

- And wow, what a way to end a chapter.

- This is a really strong entry. A lot happens, but it definitely moves the character a long while twisting the knife a bit. Can't wait to see what happens next. 

[Robinski]

On 20/02/2017 at 2:35 PM, kaisa said:

Meant to be a breather and world building chapter before the plot kicks back up too much.

Oh god no, please don't, the pacing is just fine and I am perfectly happy with the level of world-building so far.

On 20/02/2017 at 6:47 PM, Ernei said:

OK, no gore, so I'm going in.

Lol

On 20/02/2017 at 10:04 PM, aeromancer said:

Weak chapter start. Severed hand = good. Boat taking on water = bad.

I've got to voice my disagreement. If you start every chapter with something as jarring as a severed hand, it will sound one-tone. After a point, there has to be the assumption of sufficient reader trust that they are engaged with the story, and are not just 'severed-hand junkies', are invested in the character and their progress and are sophisticated enough to handle more than one tone and one pace.

[Robinski]

Really looking forward to this second instalment, I'm going to come right out and say that, so far, I'm enjoying this more than I did AFD at the same stage.

• “he simply handed me a small blue bucket and grunted” – awesome. But to they only have to bail because they can’t pay? The young couple ain’t bailing.

•  “the earlywood well sunk against the latewood” – don’t know what this means.

• “I wasn’t going to remove either of them to put on my head” – lol.

• “There was visible blood on my shirt” – as opposed to invisible? Just a phrasing issue.

• “There was something beautiful about belonging so long to one profession” – The old lady could have started yesterday – I don’t see where they get this conclusion.

• “My binding chafed” – what binding? And are they still bailing? I've lost the sense of that.

• “If you have to piss, do it in your pants. We don’t need to be attracting attention from the lake” – Nope – I don’t believe this. It’s a sparky line, but there’s no way he doesn’t have a bucket for a 4-hour boat ride.

• “Pray the ruddermaster holds” – don’t understand this. Is it the old lady, or a god he’s invoking? A piece of equipment?

• “It was an event Mother would have celebrated” – really? Hmm. Not sure I've got a handle on ‘Mother’s’ character yet.

• “the coupled-man rebutted to his partner” – repetition of ‘rebut’ from paragraph before.

• “There are systems in place” – still toiling a bit with the time period when there are modern words included, like your scientific terms from Chapter 1, and this. Are we alternative world, post-apocalyptic?

• “so I moved back to my original seat” – I feel like it’s going to be really obvious they are ‘earie-wigging’ this conversation.

• I’m confused, how did they end up in the water? Plus, I like what you did with the ruddermaster showing her guild mark and it being a question, very subtle, nicely done.

• Good job on the description of the dock/port, I get a nice feeling for the place, if perhaps not it’s layout, but that’s okay – I can picture Generic Dock No.2. “I’d made it to my destination, if not albeit far wetter than I had planned”

• Oh, since when do we know Tel-ia?

• “several meters away another cart vendor” – ‘metres’ sounds weird in fantasy, but I don’t know if it’s fantasy or not, from what I've read. I think yards sounds more in keeping to fantasy.

• There’s something I’m not getting a handle on yet. You’ve been clear they are ‘not a woman’, and the binding is to disguise their chest. You mentioned “every awkward stare at my body” in Chapter 1, and yet I feel like the kidnappers and the ruddermaster assumed they were female. So, what I’m not exactly sure is, if they are commonly mistaken for female, why do they feel the need to disguise their chest? Some if this may be my problem, but I’m not convinced there’s a clear line on this point, which might tend to hamper some readers getting a handle on the character. Apologies if you feel there is anything insensitive in this point.

• You talk about them lying down on the floor, and yet they are outside. For me, floors are inside and ground is outside. Saying floor when outside is disorienting for the reader, imho.

Good job, I like how things are developing; I like the level of intrigue, but that there is also action, tension and the increasing feeling of pursuit. Good pacing. Increasingly, I find myself agreeing with neongrey about mushiness of the text, but that’s just editing, I'm sure.

More please.

<R>

[kais]

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

But to they only have to bail because they can’t pay? The young couple ain’t bailing.

I think this whole section just needs cleaning. I've changed it around, because S certainly did pay ahead, but that part got chopped out of chapter one some time ago.

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

I don’t see where they get this conclusion.

Edited

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

what binding?

The one that we're not directly addressing until a few chapters from now. LOL

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

but there’s no way he doesn’t have a bucket for a 4-hour boat ride

I thought this once, too. And yet, no matter how many times I ask for one, they never put them in the Amazon boats I take. 

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

Are we alternative world, post-apocalyptic?

Going to can-of-worms this until I finish draft zero, because I have no clue. Probably alternate history world.

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

I’m confused, how did they end up in the water?

Have cleared this up, I hope

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

know Tel-ia?

Name fail on my part

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

metres’ sounds weird in fantasy,

I'll probably keep it. It definitively dates the time period to right where I want it.

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

if they are commonly mistaken for female, why do they feel the need to disguise their chest? Some if this may be my problem, but I’m not convinced there’s a clear line on this point, which might tend to hamper some readers getting a handle on the character. Apologies if you feel there is anything insensitive in this point.

That's an understandable question, and one I am going to let S answer for you during this book. I suspect lay readers will have similar questions if they are not familiar with the various areas under the gender identity spectrum, but one of the purposes of the book was to walk the reader through S's identity through the duality of magic and alchemy. I don't know if it will work, mind, but that's the plan. Also we're getting a character soon to play the part of the lay reader. @Mandamon found her... forward.

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

Saying floor when outside is disorienting for the reader, imho.

I've added some clarifiers

On 2/25/2017 at 4:52 AM, Robinski said:

find myself agreeing with neongrey about mushiness of the text, but that’s just editing, I'm sure.

Yeah, I don't put a great deal of effort into flowing prose in draft zero. Get the words on the page, worry about them later sort of deal is what I'm shooting for right now. Thank you for the feedback!

[Robinski]

39 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I thought this once, too. And yet, no matter how many times I ask for one, they never put them in the Amazon boats I take. 

(a) - do they allow 'it' to go over the side in the Amazon?

(b) - you seem to be confusing reality and fiction  

40 minutes ago, kaisa said:

one of the purposes of the book was to walk the reader through S's identity

Fine by me. Let's go  

[shadowkissed]

As my comments on chapter 1 suggested, I didn't really find Sorin all that likable, but I liked her much better in this chapter. I think in chapter 1 you were trying to display her capability, but you also showed her experiencing emotion and processing the events, which shows a certain vulnerability and realism that balances her out into someone I found much more likable. I really would have loved a little more of that in chapter 1. I know there wasn't time or cause for a lot of that, but mentions don't have to be long to be successful.

I also like that you work more on setting in this chapter. I think you could allude to the jungle more in the first chapter--you have the mention of the mist, but I think you could have also dropped something in about the sounds or smells of the jungle. But that is a cool setting and I'm interested to see what you do with it.

One thing I didn't quite understand is in the first chapter, you say "I wasn't anybody's daughter anymore," which led me to believe the mother was likely dead or has disowned her, but in this second chapter, she's looking for her mother, which rules out both of those things, at least to my mind. Maybe that's something you'll explain in the coming chapters, but it's unclear now and it's a little distracting.

The bit where she goes to the area where the guild members should all be is really interesting, and you do a good job of setting up the stakes beyond her own problems with it. I'm interested to see how you'll get her involved with that issue. The larger political issues with the queen are also interesting.

Overall, I really liked this chapter. It contrasts so sharply from the first chapter that I was a bit jarred, and I think if you make the first chapter a little more like the second in tone and cadence you'll have a more cohesive beginning, and finished product. I get that one is action-packed and the other is more expository, but you can still give them tonal similarities since the POV remains unchanged. Really, though, nicely done.

[kais]

On 2/26/2017 at 9:28 PM, shadowkissed said:

but I think you could have also dropped something in about the sounds or smells of the jungle

I've put just a bit more in chapter one about the forest. I'll be curious to see your reaction to chapter five, when S is actually doing work in a forest. Much more description there!

On 2/26/2017 at 9:28 PM, shadowkissed said:

I think if you make the first chapter a little more like the second in tone and cadence you'll have a more cohesive beginning, and finished product.

I agree completely. I might just sub chapter one again post edits, and see if it works better

On 2/26/2017 at 9:28 PM, shadowkissed said:

Really, though, nicely done.

Thank you!  Issues with chapter one crit aside, your structural comments are very useful. Will you be subbing something here in the future?

[Hobbit]

Hello! Diving right in:

Nice. Things seem pretty bad for the MC right now. I’m hoping zie catches an edge soon, because it’s going to get too depressing and hopeless if that doesn’t happen. I had a few moments of confusion, but otherwise it read smoothly and kept my interest. I’m curious about zir title - the Woodcutter’s Daughter - and I’m hoping we learn a bit more about why that’s the MC’s title if the MC doesn’t consider themselves as female. I’d also appreciate a few more clues about how this world thinks about trans/non-gendered people, either in this chapter, or soon. You mentioned something in one of your previous post comments, but I don’t think I’ve gotten enough clues from the text to be sure about where the culture lands on this.

After reading the above comments, I realized my confusion is partly that I'm not sure if the MC thinks of themselves as male, or just non-gendered. It's not a problem as I read -- just a character mystery that I'm waiting to find out more about.

Specifics:

he simply handed me a small blue bucket
Haha

 All of Thuja knew me, and half of them had been at my door in the past month with outlandish requests for potions and spells and other witch nonsense.
Does this mean we’re several weeks past chapter 1? It’s not super clear.

There was visible blood on my shirt,
Never mind, we're not several weeks ahead.

event Mother would have celebrated
MC has a very interesting mother.

"You’re lucky I noticed."
Noticed what? Zir breasts, the blood on her clothes, or the fact that ze's not in a guild?

I knew the look that would be on her face, and after the events of the last day, I didn’t want to add tears
Slightly confused by the wording here.

And that took me to the end of the chapter. The second half was definitely smoother than the first. I see from the comments you've done some cleanup already.

On to the next chapter...

[kais]

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

I’m curious about zir title - the Woodcutter’s Daughter - and I’m hoping we learn a bit more about why that’s the MC’s title if the MC doesn’t consider themselves as female.

Yeah, I'm not sure about the title yet. Like, I chose it for a very specific reason, in that it's the banner S is working under (and can't get out of) for this book. And then the next book would be called The Alchemist, showcasing that S finally has moved into a new phase of life. But if the gender on the first title is going to throw people off, I might change it. On the other hand, it does help ground S's sex, which maybe readers want?

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

and I’m hoping we learn a bit more about why that’s the MC’s title if the MC doesn’t consider themselves as female

I'm hoping to explore this throughout this book.

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

I’d also appreciate a few more clues about how this world thinks about trans/non-gendered people, either in this chapter, or soon

And in fact there were several in this chapter! Subtle though. Did you catch them?

5 hours ago, Hobbit said:

my confusion is partly that I'm not sure if the MC thinks of themselves as male, or just non-gendered. It's not a problem as I read -- just a character mystery that I'm waiting to find out more about.

Yes good! This is where I hoped most readers would be. Unsure, but want to read to figure it out (along with M, basically, because she doesn't really get it either).

5 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Does this mean we’re several weeks past chapter 1? It’s not super clear.

I've cleaned this up. It's just the next morning.

5 hours ago, Hobbit said:

MC has a very interesting mother.

I adore S's mother, as a character. Not as a decent human being, mind, but as a character I love her.

5 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Noticed what? Zir breasts, the blood on her clothes, or the fact that ze's not in a guild?

Hopefully I've cleaned this up better

5 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Slightly confused by the wording here.

Noted and edited.

Yay! Thank you! I look forward to your thoughts on chapter five when I sub it, because its super nerdy fungus in the forest!

[Hobbit]

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

And in fact there were several in this chapter! Subtle though. Did you catch them?

Aha well... I guess not?  Well, I got that it's odd for someone to be trying to hide their gender, since the MC is getting a lot of stares.

[kais]

1 hour ago, Hobbit said:

Well, I got that it's odd for someone to be trying to hide their gender, since the MC is getting a lot of stares.

There are a few layers to this chapter, in that S directly interacts with the queer community but also does not seen anyone of similar orientation. I did not call it out on purpose, because of the nature of the story, but if you were really interested I could pull the relevant text and walk you through it. Technically, the only thing S is hiding are breasts. Gender is being displayed proudly.

I like that its kind of a secret, just like real life. Queer readers will know instantly, and everyone else will have to work for it.  

[Hobbit]

Interesting. I gave the chapter another glance and I found it -- there's a whole separate district for the queer community. I noticed that something was going on there, but I just assumed you were saying that the current fashion for all men was to wear tight, brightly colored clothes.  I should have been cued in since the MC suddenly stopped being worried.

18 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I like that its kind of a secret, just like real life. Queer readers will know instantly, and everyone else will have to work for it.

I like it too. It definitely adds to the realism. I recently listened to a podcast about how Subaru did a series of ads in the early 2000's specifically selling to the lesbian community, but in such a way that straight people had no idea.

[M.Puddles]

 

 

 

 

I am sorry this is late. I'd tell you why, but my tale isn't an interesting story.  

So let me begin by saying,

This chapter enaged me.  For long sections, I forgot I was critiquing and just lost myself in the story…and then had to go back and drag a comb through; I didn’t find much.  You have a great start to your story. I wasn’t sure where it was going after chapter1, but I like it. 

I think the first paragraph needs to be stronger though. It didn’t grab my attention, I didn’t hook till later. But when you got rolling, it thundered along. 

Quote

Their laughter made hurt my ears, [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Needs review

 

 

Quote

Discomforted gave way to tension[JG1] .

---

 [MP1]Discomfort

 

 

Quote

Discomforted gave way to tension[JG1] . I couldn’t be recognized. All of T knew me, and half of them had been at my door in the past month with outlandish requests for potions and spells and other witch nonsense. [JG2] I

 [MP2]I had to re-read this. At first I read it as a statement that it was not possible for her to be recognized.

 

 

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and I wasn’t going to remove either of them to put on my head[JG1] 

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 [MP1]To hide my face.

 

 

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The only person in front of me was an old woman, already settled in her seat, her feet in the pedals and hand on the rudder[JG1] 

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 [MP1]I’d already imagined the character sitting in the back with only the couple in front, sitting four rows ahead.

 

 

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 I admired her musculature and focus on propelling the boat[JG1] 

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 [MP1]This should be smoothened out

 

 

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It was a stupid title, and not properly descriptive at all. [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Maybe: and it didn’t describe me at all.

 

 

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hoping a spray of water might wash grime from the leather of my boots[JG1] 

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 [MP1]From my leather boots

 

 

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I was lucky that  the men

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 [MP1]Cut

 

 

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I was lucky that[JG1]  the men had come [JG2] when I was still dressed for extracting

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  [MP]Came

 

 

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The captain’s voice accompanied a jerk to the boat as another woman pushed the boat from the dock. [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Boat twice in one sentence.

Perhaps replace one with vessel?

 

 

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I did vomit, this time, o[JG1] r

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 [MP1]I vomited this time.

 

 

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I pressed myself into side of a brick building [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Missing word

 

 

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The leather pants and boots chafed with their dampness, [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Wouldn’t they be soaking still?

 

 

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The extracts, at least[JG1] , I didn’t have to worry about

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 [MP1]I think it flows better without this part.

 

 

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Even if I was out of the yellow, the red’s crystal formation, which bound and formed within microscopic openings and thereby shattered most substrates on contact, and the blue-green, a highly-effective poison if ingested, were reasonable weapons. [JG1] 

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 [MP1]I’d try to chop this up to make it more memorable.  I guess this is important world building.  Having too may clauses to recall will impact memory.

 

 

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The number of people began to increase as I moved towards the city center[JG1] 

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 [MP1]Dull phrasing.

 

 

 

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The horse was on his, and it was definitively a he, hind legs, rearing and foaming at the mouth. [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Would it be better to use the em-dash here?

 

 

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He was abdicating in this sculpture, to the foreign queen who’d conquered and taken his kingdom from him. She’d [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Interesting picture. King, in armor, on a rearing horse, with head held low?

 

 

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I pulled my eyes from the statue and moved them to the street in front of me, to resume walking[JG1] .

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 [MP1]I pulled my eyes from the street and glanced at the street before me…

 

 

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I stepped to the west side and let my arms come to my sides. [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Do we know what direction we were travelling in?

 

 

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Out of business..

You have a big section here without any audio pulls.  When you use them, you are using them well, but I think you would enhance the narrative with more.

 

 

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These weren’t shoppers, however, and their leisurely walking and handholding made navigation more complex[JG1] 

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 [MP1]You can find a better word.

 

 

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The outbuilding was scrubbed clean with a hint of lemon. [JG1] 

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 [MP1]Nice

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kais]

Thanks for doing this, @M.Puddles! Formatting went super wonky though!

20 hours ago, M.Puddles said:

It didn’t grab my attention

A few people noted this. I've changed up the first page somewhat, so hopefully it works better now.

Your edits are wonderful! About half I had already done (so yay!), and the other half are excellent and are now in the draft as well. Thank you so much!

[M.Puddles]

I'm glad they helped.  You're welcome.