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Harmonium Allomancy


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1 minute ago, Valette Renaitre said:

Since lerasium makes you able to use all the allomantic metals and atium can steal any power or attribute better than any other metal, since ettmetal is of harmony, I think its safe to assume that tapping/storing in ettmetal will make you a full feruchemist

This is very very unlikely...Or the Southerns Will be all Feruchemists. Something of course impossible or they Will no need of the Medallion's tech we saw them use

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6 minutes ago, Yata said:

This is very very unlikely...Or the Southerns Will be all Feruchemists. Something of course impossible or they Will no need of the Medallion's tech we saw them use

Very true. I haven't really been doing this kind of stuff for very long, so plz forgive me for any errors I make.

Edited by Valette Renaitre
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Just now, Valette Renaitre said:

Very true. I haven't really been doing this kind of stuff for very long, so plz forgive me for any errors I make. Plus, I'm only 13.

No problem. I wanted only to point to the weak point of the proposed idea.

If something in the Harmonium will give Feruchemical ability I Will propose its allomantical effect...But It's probably impossibile to survive to the experience without some Crazy cirtumstances. So quite impossible to test for the Southern

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9 minutes ago, Yata said:

This is very very unlikely...Or the Southerns Will be all Feruchemists. Something of course impossible or they Will no need of the Medallion's tech we saw them use

It might just be a different metal though. The only known cache of lerasium was burned 300 years ago by Elend, and the only known existing atium in the whole of Scadrial is in Marsh(Ironeyes)'s pouch. So it could just be another really rare metal that is more stable than harmonium

Edited by Valette Renaitre
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29 minutes ago, Valette Renaitre said:

It might just be a different metal though. The only known cache of lerasium was burned 300 years ago by Elend, and the only known existing atium in the whole of Scadrial is in Marsh(Ironeyes)'s pouch. So it could just be another really rare metal that is more stable than harmonium

Hmm? Are you saying Ettmetal may not be Harmonium? I can't pull up the WoB at the moment, but it is confirmed that Ettmetal is Harmonium. Yata is right here. The Southerners use Harmonium extensively, yet still need to use medallions to become temporary Feruchemists. If Harmonium has a Feruchemical effect, it seems very unlikely that it makes you a Feruchemist.

edit:

Figured I'd take the time to pull up the WoB:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Dec 3rd, 2016

Little City Books-AU Tour (Paraphrased)

PAGERUNNER

*holding out list of Allomantic metal symbols* Is ettmetal's symbol one of these 4? *Points at the unused ones*

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. It has a symbol, but I don't think you've seen it yet. No, you haven't seen it.

PAGERUNNER

*making connections internally* Oh, that's interesting, since we have seen Harmonium's symbol.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, you haven't. Have you?

PAGERUNNER

Yeah, we have. *momentary staredown* It looks like the double lerasium. *waves hands around in the air like an idiot to pantomime the axis of reflection*

BRANDON SANDERSON

*looks crestfallen* Oh. Right. Then, I guess you have seen ettmetal's symbol.

PAGERUNNER

*cackles internally* So, ettmetal is Harmonium!

BRANDON SANDERSON

*sadly* Yes...

PAGERUNNER

Am I allowed to tell people? I can keep it a secret if you want.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, you can tell people.

PAGERUNNER

*almost ditches the rest of his signing turn to go tell people

 

Edited by 8bitBob
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2 hours ago, Valette Renaitre said:

Since lerasium makes you able to use all the allomantic metals and atium can steal any power or attribute better than any other metal, since ettmetal is of harmony, I think its safe to assume that tapping/storing in ettmetal will make you a full feruchemist. Also, since it doesn't enter your body/pierce your blood stream, so it won't explode like it will if you use it for allomancy or hemalurgy.

You'll still be in danger if you start sweating. I wouldn't risk it personally. 

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On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 1:35 PM, 8giraffe8 said:

If you could pierce yourself without touching blood, it might work. Otherwise wouldn't the Harmonium react with your blood?

If you've read coppermind.net as thoroughly as I have, you'll know that for hemalurgy to work, the spike has to pierce the bloodstream (although it might just be me remembering incorrectly)

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6 hours ago, 8bitBob said:

Hmm? Are you saying Ettmetal may not be Harmonium? I can't pull up the WoB at the moment, but it is confirmed that Ettmetal is Harmonium. Yata is right here. The Southerners use Harmonium extensively, yet still need to use medallions to become temporary Feruchemists. If Harmonium has a Feruchemical effect, it seems very unlikely that it makes you a Feruchemist.

edit:

Figured I'd take the time to pull up the WoB:

 

I'm not saying that ettmetal isn't harmonium, both of the other god metals were exceedingly rare and named after the original holder of the shard. Neither harmonium nor ettmetal fits these criteria. What I'm proposing is a new metal altogether, called Sazedium or sazium

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So you've got the 16 base metals, and 3 God metals (this doesn't include Trellium, as we aren't really sure what it is). Since allomancy is of preservation, each God metal presumably has 16 allomantic alloys. So, there are 64 metals, plus the three God metals (or the three God metals are part of their 16, I'm not totally sure) so, there are 67 (or 64) allomantic metals altogether. However, since all allomantic metals can be used for feruchemy and hemalurgy, all 67 of these metals are used in all three metallic arts. However, since atium and lerasium are exceedingly rare, or even nonexistent, most of these metals will never be used (unless Harmony makes more atium and lerasium, which is unlikely). However, you might have more metals for each Shard, so there are 16 shards, times that by sixteen per god metal, and you get 256 metals. Add the 16 base metals and the 16 god metals and you get 288 metals, plus you might be able to mix the different shards (like harmony is preservation and ruin) and get new god metals to make more sets of 16 alloys

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Just now, Valette Renaitre said:

What I'm proposing is a new metal altogether, called Sazedium or sazium

This is also confirmed to be incorrect. Harmonium = Sazedium = Ettmetal. Sazed calls it Harmonium specifically because he doesn't like the name Sazedium.

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying still. Are you proposing there is a new God metal, or a new basic metal, or what? Is it a metal we've seen but misunderstood? Are you still proposing it grants Feruchemy when tapped by anyone?

Also, hate to mini-mod, but it is generally frowned upon to double post. It is preferable to make one large, well formatted post than to break them into separate posts.

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6 minutes ago, Valette Renaitre said:

Or it could be an alloy of harmonium

It could be an alloy with lerasium, so that way it gifts something, so the rules of feruchemy aren't broken and neither are the rules of allomancy (the harmonium isn't giving the ability, but the lerasium isn't giving allomancy, rather, it is giving feruchemy, similar to how burning pewter with lerasium makes you a pewterarm/thug. Putting it another way, the alloy is giving (preservation/lerasium) feruchemy (harmony/harmonium, since it is end neutral)

P.S. A big thank you to 8bitBob and Yata for helping me refine my theory

Edited by Valette Renaitre
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2 minutes ago, Valette Renaitre said:

a different God's metal

I mean, this is theoretically possible, but it seems very unlikely. Why would another God's metal rewrite your sDNA in such a way that it mimics another God's investiture?

3 minutes ago, Valette Renaitre said:

Or it could be an alloy of harmonium

Again, possible, but this also has problems. For one, we don't actually know whether or not Harmonium has alloys yet. Brandon has been a bit vague on the matter, so we'll have to see. We also haven't had any indication that God metals can be alloyed together. Finally, if it was an alloy with one of the base sixteen, then the Southerners should have still have plenty of Feruchemists walking around and no need for medallions, because they could make it.

While I suspect it is possible to make someone a Feruchemist using advanced realmatics, it seems unlikely that we'll be seeing it any time soon.

 

Also, I hate to repeat mini-mod, but you should not be triple posting, as per the forum rules. Specifically:

Quote

Don't post twice in a row. This is "double-posting". If you forgot to say something in your previous post, there's a button on all of your posts called "Edit". Please make sure to use this, rather than making a second, tiny post to correct an error or say one more thing. The only place we should see double posting is if, after a time when no one responds, you post new information or ideas. For example, if I post in General Discussion something about an upcoming video game, and after some replies, I posted the final comment, then if there's new information revealed about the game a month later, it would be completely acceptable for me to make a new post in that topic to let people know about this new information. I added something to the conversation, which is always acceptable (and encouraged!)

 

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All right, lets lay down some chemistry.

  • Alkali metals don't react with water molecules, they react with positive hydrogen ions, H+. Water will naturally dissociate to some degree; some of the H2Os will split, to have an OH- (Oxygen and Hydrogen bond, with the Oxygen having an extra electron) and a H+ (proton with no electrons). These charged particles in water will drive reactions as they strip away or add electrons to other compounds or atoms. (pH, the measure of acidity, is a measure of the concentration of H+.)
  • Alcohols are defined by a carbon chain with an OH group on the end. (All the carbons are generically denoted as R.) It is possible for them to dissociate, to give RO- and H+, but it happens much more slowly, so they won't react as quickly with metals. A sodium-alcohol reaction is much less violent than a sodium-water reaction.
  • So, if the goal is to preserve metal flakes from reaction, you'll put them in something that will slow down the reaction, but can still be imbibed.
  • Stomach acid is more reactive than water. One thing my friends and I used to do would be to put some aluminum foil and muriatic acid in a coke bottle. The reaction would release hydrogen gas (and, technically, aluminum oxides, but we weren't as concerned with that), increase the pressure in the bottle, and cause it to rupture in a very satisfying fashion. Aluminum doesn't react that quickly with water, obviously. 
  • On the scale of 'which would be less reactive,' it's obviously oil (which is nonpolar, no OH structure) < Alcohol < Water < Stomach Acid. For most allomantic metals, stomach acid is still safe for the timescales involved during ingestion, although it looks like the shelf life of vials with water might have been too low. For alkali metals, I'd say that nothing above oil is safe for either instance, in your stomach or in your vial. That makes it very difficult to contact ettmetal with your body, since you have so many neutral solutions (blood, sweat, and tears) that will react.
  • The specific tag for an Allomantic metal appears to include both the chemical composition of the atoms, and the chemical composition of the material as a whole. So, if you don't have the right mixture of iron and carbon, you don't get Allomantically pure steel. If you don't have the right number of electrons in iron, and its bonded with oxygen, you'll have rust, not Allomantic iron.
  • Oxides can be affected by iron and steel Allomancy. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to see iron in peoples' blood, which advanced Allomancers can do. But you can't burn metal in that form.

So, all that goes to say, I don't think body chemistry has any room for metallic harmonium, no matter how you slice it. Sodium is an important part of our body, but as an ion; same with iron, an actual Allomantic metal. But they are in a different form, which is mostly unusable in the metallic arts.

@Valette Renaitre, may I interest you in the proposed atium-lerasium alloy? Harmonium is a nuclear combination of Ruin and Preservation, where the atom has both Shards; this proposed metal would be an alloy, with atoms of Preservation mixed with atoms of Ruin. This would definitely be possible before Sazed's ascension (unlike harmonium, which might not have existed before Harmony), and it would fit Feruchemy being a balance magic between Ruin and Preservation.

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24 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

 

@Valette Renaitre, may I interest you in the proposed atium-lerasium alloy? Harmonium is a nuclear combination of Ruin and Preservation, where the atom has both Shards; this proposed metal would be an alloy, with atoms of Preservation mixed with atoms of Ruin. This would definitely be possible before Sazed's ascension (unlike harmonium, which might not have existed before Harmony), and it would fit Feruchemy being a balance magic between Ruin and Preservation.

However, The thing about feruchemy is that it is end neutral, and so would a 50-50 mixture of atium and lerasium. So, it would have to be made of more lerasium than atium. However, this isn't a problem, since most alloys only have 1-2% impurities, sometimes less. The more atium there is, the less potent the feruchemy (since the atium negates the lerasium)

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11 hours ago, Valette Renaitre said:

harmonium's reactivity doesn't have anything to do with the it's chemical form.

In the very first post on the link, it was stated that "Brandon said that it makes sense for ettmetal to be so volatile, because it has the power of both Shards in it, and the conflict associated with them. He also clarified that it’s not a nuclear reaction; it’s chemically reactive, it’s the properties of the electrons in Harmonium that make it so reactive. It’s like ‘super-cesium,’ reacting very quickly with water."  Harmonium does act almost identical to Caesium in chemical aspects.

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So much non fiction science debate about a fictional element.

My best guess is there must be rare Southerners who became Mistings, just as Alendi did in his time, pre Rashek. These rare Mistings guided by their Sovereign, used Harmonium and became their "Fire Fathers and Fire Mothers," because now only Twinborns are allowed, excluding Spook, Marsh, Sovereign.  

I doubt Sazed would grant Full Feruchemy just by tapping his metal. Sazed wants tech progress and he placed a Shard Pool in the South, for without it, we may not have the genesis of the Ghostbloods in the Cosmere. 

Let Brandon fill in the blanks of our knowledge, for he knows best.

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9 hours ago, The Voiceless One said:

In the very first post on the link, it was stated that "Brandon said that it makes sense for ettmetal to be so volatile, because it has the power of both Shards in it, and the conflict associated with them. He also clarified that it’s not a nuclear reaction; it’s chemically reactive, it’s the properties of the electrons in Harmonium that make it so reactive. It’s like ‘super-cesium,’ reacting very quickly with water."  Harmonium does act almost identical to Caesium in chemical aspects.

What I meant was, it's so volatile because of the overlaying powers (preservation and ruin), rather than for other, more mundane reasons

Edited by Valette Renaitre
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