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Harmonium Allomancy


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20 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

I'm not sure about that: after all, Zane did hide that coin from Vin by putting it in his mouth. This would seem to indicate that inside the mouth is considered to be inside you, thus I don't see why you wouldn't also be able to burn a metal in your mouth.

I suspect that burning a metal inside a capsule could work, though in the case of harmonium doing so would open yourself up to the risk of the capsule failing somehow.

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between inside of you for the sake of burning metals and inside of you for the sake of soul interference to start having effect. Nobody seems to notice the metal being burnable the moment it's in the mouth; they only seem to notice it once swallowed.

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1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between inside of you for the sake of burning metals and inside of you for the sake of soul interference to start having effect. Nobody seems to notice the metal being burnable the moment it's in the mouth; they only seem to notice it once swallowed.

I'd argue that this could come down to perception again, similar to how Wayne didn't notice that the unkeyed goldmind that Wax gave him was a metalmind until Wax told him it was.

It wouldn't really be practical for an Allomancer to carry a bunch of metals around in their mouths: the risk of the metals falling out at a critical moment, or accidentally swallowing and choking on them would be too high, plus it would make it difficult to talk. So they would instead swallow them to prevent this, thus new Allomancers would be taught that they needed to swallow them and consequently the perception would be created.

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13 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm pretty sure there's a difference between inside of you for the sake of burning metals and inside of you for the sake of soul interference to start having effect. Nobody seems to notice the metal being burnable the moment it's in the mouth; they only seem to notice it once swallowed.

This question has come up before.  At what point is something considered inside.  From a Biological perspective, the entire gastrointestinal tract can be considered as being outside your body, and nutrients are absorbed into your body across the intestinal barrier.  From that perspective, metal in your stomach is never truly inside you, yet you can still burn it.

 

I believe Brandon has stated that when something is considered inside you depends on your view of yourself.  If you consider something inside your body cavities, up your nose, piecing you, etc to be inside you, it counts, and you can burn.  So whether or not an Allomancer could burn a coin in their mouth depends on how they perceive themselves, and what is inside them.  If you can do the mental gymnastics to convince yourself that something in your mouth is *in* and *part* of you enough to be immune to external Allomancer influences, you should be capable of taking it the one step further and consider them to be burnable.

 

***Edit***: @BlackYeti got there first, with a far more grounded and practical reason for why new Allomancers are trained to not burn things in their mouths. 

Edited by Stark
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Hmm. Good points. Exact points I had come up to myself before. 

I'm not actually sure why I argued that. Coming up with an imaginative way to burn ettmetal is something I would normally do. 

Anyhow. I don't think ettmetal in a solid capsule idea is the best since vacuum issues. Drinking it in oil and burning quickly seems like the best way.

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I'd almost suggest taking a few extra steps, and eat a ton of antacids first, then swallow and burn ettmetal coated in oil.  If you can temporarily neutralize your stomach acids to further reduce the potential for reaction, that seems ideal.

 

And maybe already be a pewter misting with an unkeyed goldmind to provide you the fortitude and healing needed to survive being just a hair too slow.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/22/2017 at 9:46 AM, BlackYeti said:

It wouldn't really be practical for an Allomancer to carry a bunch of metals around in their mouths: the risk of the metals falling out at a critical moment, or accidentally swallowing and choking on them would be too high, plus it would make it difficult to talk.

You could use special braces for that.  No metals falling out, and talking is still normal.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Because behaves like Caesium, as discussed by Pagerunner in the chemistry of god metals, there should be a way to dissolve it in water without it exploding.  In this form, it would be safe to drink and burn.  Sodium and Caesium behave almost the same (the main difference is in how violently they react with water), sodium compounds should work to model harmonium compounds.  Sodium combined with chlorine produces table salt, which readily dissolves in water without the sodium exploding as it would if the sodium were added without the chlorine.  Once in the water, the sodium ions separate from the chlorine ions.  Therefore, if a chlorine-harmonium compound were made, it could safely be added to the water, where the harmonium would separate from the chlorine, and now the water can supply harmonium for burning.

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23 minutes ago, The Voiceless One said:

Because behaves like Caesium, as discussed by Pagerunner in the chemistry of god metals, there should be a way to dissolve it in water without it exploding.  In this form, it would be safe to drink and burn.  Sodium and Caesium behave almost the same (the main difference is in how violently they react with water), sodium compounds should work to model harmonium compounds.  Sodium combined with chlorine produces table salt, which readily dissolves in water without the sodium exploding as it would if the sodium were added without the chlorine.  Once in the water, the sodium ions separate from the chlorine ions.  Therefore, if a chlorine-harmonium compound were made, it could safely be added to the water, where the harmonium would separate from the chlorine, and now the water can supply harmonium for burning.

Except now you've got ionic ettmetal, not elemental ettmetal which is the metal for the metallic arts. Also, I'm doubtful that ettmetal has an ionic form since it can't form an oxide. 

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3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm doubtful that ettmetal has an ionic form since it can't form an oxide. 

Good point.

 

3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

now you've got ionic ettmetal, not elemental ettmetal which is the metal for the metallic arts.

why would being an ion make it un usable in the metallic arts?  Iron forms many ions naturally, and that does not seem to prevent lurchers from burning it.

Edited by The Voiceless One
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19 minutes ago, The Voiceless One said:

why would being an ion make it un usable in the metallic arts?  Iron forms many ions naturally, and that does not seem to prevent lurchers from burning it.

Ions would form a different molecular structure than elemental forms. Since the actual qualifier of the metallic arts is the molecular structure of the metals, changing that structure should prevent or limit the metallic arts. Furthermore, just because we know it can form ions, doesn't mean that we have them actually burning those ions and not the elemental metal. Also, it doesn't just form ions by itself I'm pretty sure, and I think they're stored in a relatively inert solution.

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2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

the actual qualifier of the metallic arts is the molecular structure of the metals

I have never heard this before.  Where did you find it?

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Also, it doesn't just form ions by itself I'm pretty sure, and I think they're stored in a relatively inert solution.

In the time of The Lord Ruler, metals were stored in an alcohol solution, which will react with the iron.  The reaction between the Iron and the alcohol solution will turn almost all the iron into iron oxides, but these appear to still be burnable.

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11 minutes ago, The Voiceless One said:

I have never heard this before.  Where did you find it?

I don't have an exact quote, but basically the molecular structure of the metals are synonymous with the patterns of Aons.

The pattern determines the power.

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1 hour ago, The Voiceless One said:

I have never heard this before.  Where did you find it?

Quote

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

[Source

 

1 hour ago, The Voiceless One said:

I have never heard this before.  Where did you find it?

In the time of The Lord Ruler, metals were stored in an alcohol solution, which will react with the iron.  The reaction between the Iron and the alcohol solution will turn almost all the iron into iron oxides, but these appear to still be burnable.

Possibly. Chemistry isn't my absolute strong point, but I'm having trouble seeing how iron oxides would form in alcohols, unless there's oxygen dissolved into the alcohol as well. However, a cursory look seems to indicate that alcohol doesn't have a strong oxygen content, lower than water. I couldn't actually find anything that indicates that alcohol does oxidize iron, though since the alcohol would have water in it, I guess that would be a strong cause of oxidation. 

Fair point overall, I'll need to think about it a bit. It could just be something that Brandon missed at the time. Another possibly though is that they still aren't burning the iron oxide layer, but since it could protect the interior from being oxidized, only that is burnt.

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As I understand it, the metals weren't necessarily stored in alcohol.  Vials of metal have alcohol in them, but that's to wash it down, presumably because the cinnamon challenge is already to much for the average human constitution. 

However there's no reason to assume that the alcohol is added until just prior to a Mistborn's night of adventure.

Therein lies a question for our chemists. It has already been pointed out that alcohol has a lower oxidation rate than water: would, say an 8 hour span(?), cause a sufficient amount of decay in the metals to produce a noticeable effect in the ions?

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I think that because we see allomancers in multiple eras with a vile of metal always ready, we can conclude that it was common for at least those allomancers to keep a mixed vile at all times, meaning that they either go through a lot of metal flakes, or that there is ample time for the flakes to react with the water and alcohol.

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On 23 February 2017 at 1:59 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Hmm. Good points. Exact points I had come up to myself before. 

I'm not actually sure why I argued that. Coming up with an imaginative way to burn ettmetal is something I would normally do. 

Anyhow. I don't think ettmetal in a solid capsule idea is the best since vacuum issues. Drinking it in oil and burning quickly seems like the best way.

There wouldn't be a vacuum in the capsule once the ettmetal was burned, i think.  I'm pretty sure Brandon has said that when metal is burned it vapourises, so the matter would still be there after the metal was burned. 

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6 hours ago, Flynn said:

There wouldn't be a vacuum in the capsule once the ettmetal was burned, i think.  I'm pretty sure Brandon has said that when metal is burned it vapourises, so the matter would still be there after the metal was burned. 

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the metal is converted to investiture and is therefore gone. There are definitely no material traces as Brandon has said that Scadrial is slowly running out of metals. 

Also, vaporizing the metal would mean it's still in the body, meaning the allomancer would still suffer metal poisoning, something which we know not to happen if they burn it. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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11 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the metal is converted to investiture and is therefore gone. There are definitely no material traces as Brandon has said that Scadrial is slowly running out of metals.

Brandon may mean that they are running out of Allomantic metals.  The metal burned could be turned into something non-toxic when the potential to fuel investiture is gone.  Also, burning metals seems to release a physical heat, so it is possible that we can deduce which, if any, states of mater they go through based on how heat would be consumed or released.  For example, because gas cools the container as it expands and burning the metal makes the person warmer, it is unlikely that the metal becomes a gas.

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Dissolved Harmonium, would essentially be a kind of alloy, with water. 

Is that a useable alloy? Doubtful. 

Has Harmony left no way for full Mistborn to arise? You would have thought that if there was a way, the South Scadrians would have found it. 

And it has never been really explained how to make Feruchemists. 

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3 hours ago, The Voiceless One said:

Brandon may mean that they are running out of Allomantic metals.  The metal burned could be turned into something non-toxic when the potential to fuel investiture is gone.  Also, burning metals seems to release a physical heat, so it is possible that we can deduce which, if any, states of mater they go through based on how heat would be consumed or released.  For example, because gas cools the container as it expands and burning the metal makes the person warmer, it is unlikely that the metal becomes a gas.

The only thing which determines what allomantic power is granted by metals is their molecular structure. For this to potentially run out it means that the physical metals must be obliterated else it would be possible to reform the metal atoms back into a solid structure which could then be burned once more.

Furthermore, I'll point out that burning metals causes the sensation of heat; we have no proof that the process is actually producing thermal energy. The sensation could just as easily be the flow of investiture into the person. Unless we have confirmation that thermal energy is being released somehow, there's no deductions which can be made.

Overall, I think that the metals are being physically obliterated and turned into investiture from the process.

Edit: Another indicator of this is how atium is described as returning to investiture when it is burned.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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Harmony realized ingesting god-metals was too powerful for his revised Scadrial. 

It appears that Harmony wants it to be used in Technological items for the Southerners (he likely felt bad about pushing Scadrial further away from it's star/sun.) We already see it motivating air travel and ultimately space travel as the Eras pass. Harmony repeatedly pushes Northerners to become more tech savvy.

Now that Harmony is thinking realmatically and of the Adonalsium of the Cosmere. He provides tools for Scadrians to journey to other shard worlds.

P.S. A small curiosity of mine centers on Hoid and his solid nugget of Preservation and how he grants himself power from it without ingesting the whole thing. He must be a true technological, realmatic master to be in the Cosmere and not be a creation of Adonalsium's powers, yet use them as he does.

I see why Hoid is Brandon's favorite character. At least I remember reading that somewhere. 

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On ‎20‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 3:10 AM, Spoolofwhool said:

Wouldn't work normally since most metals are ingested as flakes. As far as I can remember, only atium was ever swallowed as a bead.

Elend also swallowed a nugget of lerasium (then known as nuggets of pure allomancy). But most of the time, yes. You're right

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On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 4:02 PM, The Voiceless One said:

Because behaves like Caesium, as discussed by Pagerunner in the chemistry of god metals, there should be a way to dissolve it in water without it exploding.  In this form, it would be safe to drink and burn.  Sodium and Caesium behave almost the same (the main difference is in how violently they react with water), sodium compounds should work to model harmonium compounds.  Sodium combined with chlorine produces table salt, which readily dissolves in water without the sodium exploding as it would if the sodium were added without the chlorine.  Once in the water, the sodium ions separate from the chlorine ions.  Therefore, if a chlorine-harmonium compound were made, it could safely be added to the water, where the harmonium would separate from the chlorine, and now the water can supply harmonium for burning.

harmonium's reactivity doesn't have anything to do with the it's chemical form. Rather, it's because it's of both Preservation and Ruin, so it's nature contradicts itself, which is why it's so reactive, rather than having anything to do with it chemically

Edited by Valette Renaitre
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11 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

And it has never been really explained how to make Feruchemists. 

Since lerasium makes you able to use all the allomantic metals and atium can steal any power or attribute better than any other metal, since ettmetal is of harmony, I think its safe to assume that tapping/storing in ettmetal will make you a full feruchemist. Also, since it doesn't enter your body/pierce your blood stream, so it won't explode like it will if you use it for allomancy or hemalurgy.

Edited by Valette Renaitre
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