Duskshard

Possible Reason for the Knights Radiants Betrayal

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Ok, this is what I'm thinking after hearing what Darkness had to say to Lift about Surgebinding.

 

“Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.”

 

 

What if the Heralds convinced the Knights Radiant that Surgebinding would return the Desolation and to stop that from happening they had to betray their spren to stop any more spren from bonding with humans in an effort to stop the next Desolution?

 

What do you guys think? Feel free to pick it apart.

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I quite like that idea.

It makes me wonder what exactly is triggering the Desolations.  

My theory is that Odium has been bound to only "attack" when the world reaches a certain level of power.  Honor might not be able to stop the Desolations, but he was able to impose a condition where they could only take place under "Honorable" circumstances (Hence the possibility of a champion).  

 

At one point, this was done through the Oathpact - The Heralds were released by Odium to rally the defences.  But when the Spren stepped in, they gave power directly to humanity allowing them to fight back, but also allowing Odium more freedom as to when to Desolate.  

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Well, it makes sense. After all, there hasn't been a Desolation since the Heralds broke the Oathpact and KR left (though where did they go and what did they do after?). Odium is bound by some rules if we are to trust Dalinar's visions, so may be surgebinding allows Odium to interfere with the world again.  

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Ok, this is what I'm thinking after hearing what Darkness had to say to Lift about Surgebinding.

 

 

What if the Heralds convinced the Knights Radiant that Surgebinding would return the Desolation and to stop that from happening they had to betray their spren to stop any more spren from bonding with humans in an effort to stop the next Desolution?

 

What do you guys think? Feel free to pick it apart.

 

We know Tavanast was surprised when spren mimicked what he had done with the Heralds.  As such I can't imagine how surgebinding triggers desolations when it likely didn't exist when this all began.  But then if Darkness is a Herald it is assumed he would know what he's talking about...

 

I wonder if the Listeners gave up their spren and became Parshmen at the same time as the Recrease (since Stormform could cause the return of their Gods).

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I would treat anything Darkness-Nalan says with a heavy dose of suspicion. There's just something about his personality and the way he behaved at the end of the Lift preview and the Ym preview that makes me think that either a) this guy has the most literal and rigid definition of justice or B) he's been subtly influenced to twist his 'Just' aspect into a literal black-and-white interpretation where either someone is 100% pure or they die.

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It could be as simple as the Voidbringers may have Parshendi as their foot soldiers, but the actual Voidbringers that lead Odium's armies and summon the thunderclasts and other 'monsters' are surgebinders (and Knights Radiant) that went bad, a la the forsaken and dreadlords in Wheel of Time.

Darkness might be opposed to any surgebinders gaining powers because he knows they have the potential to become evil and bring on a desolation someday. In fact that sort of ties in with Dalinar's vision of Nohadon when he is talking about how a group of surgebinders had turned against them and made the Desolation worse.

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Darkness might be opposed to any surgebinders gaining powers because he knows they have the potential to become evil and bring on a desolation someday. In fact that sort of ties in with Dalinar's vision of Nohadon when he is talking about how a group of surgebinders had turned against them and made the Desolation worse.

 

I like that idea.

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I quite like that idea.

It makes me wonder what exactly is triggering the Desolations.  

My theory is that Odium has been bound to only "attack" when the world reaches a certain level of power.  Honor might not be able to stop the Desolations, but he was able to impose a condition where they could only take place under "Honorable" circumstances (Hence the possibility of a champion).  

 

At one point, this was done through the Oathpact - The Heralds were released by Odium to rally the defences.  But when the Spren stepped in, they gave power directly to humanity allowing them to fight back, but also allowing Odium more freedom as to when to Desolate.  

This just reminded of Stargate.

In that show, there was a race called the Wraiths. They mainly feed on the lifeforce of humans, sometimes to the extinction of whole worlds. But see, there are too many Wraiths around but too little of the humans to actually satisfy them all in any permanent way. So in order to prevent the actual extinction of the humans, their whole race force themselves into a self-induced coma. They hibernate for hundreds/thousands/millions of years and allow their prey to replenish their numbers in that time. The Wraiths don't just do this once or twice. To them, it's a cycle too. Once they awakens and find all those juicy humans spread out across the universe, with a particularly tasty Earth and its seven billion population, they wet themselves with joy and begin their harvest.

Now, I doubt Odium rely on the humans for feed or what not, but achieving feats of technological wonders or reaching a certain level of world population may be the key to the Desolations.

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This just reminded of Stargate.

In that show, there was a race called the Wraiths. They mainly feed on the lifeforce of humans, sometimes to the extinction of whole worlds. But see, there are too many Wraiths around but too little of the humans to actually satisfy them all in any permanent way. So in order to prevent the actual extinction of the humans, their whole race force themselves into a self-induced coma. They hibernate for hundreds/thousands/millions of years and allow their prey to replenish their numbers in that time. The Wraiths don't just do this once or twice. To them, it's a cycle too. Once they awakens and find all those juicy humans spread out across the universe, with a particularly tasty Earth and its seven billion population, they wet themselves with joy and begin their harvest.

Now, I doubt Odium rely on the humans for feed or what not, but achieving feats of technological wonders or reaching a certain level of world population may be the key to the Desolations.

Lol, this sounds suspiciously like the plot of Mass Effect too. Maybe the Voidbringers are really just Wraiths or Reapers from the edge of the Cosmere?

Edited by Aether
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Ok, this is what I'm thinking after hearing what Darkness had to say to Lift about Surgebinding.

 

What if the Heralds convinced the Knights Radiant that Surgebinding would return the Desolation and to stop that from happening they had to betray their spren to stop any more spren from bonding with humans in an effort to stop the next Desolution?

It's a good theory, but I doubt it's true. When the Heralds abandoned the Oath Pact, Jezrien said that the people still had the KR to protect them. There weren't any Desolations between then and the Recreance (or after the Recreance, obviously). I can't see the Heralds all of a sudden changing their minds and deciding that the KR could cause a Desolation. I agree with Chessboxin', anything Darkness says is unreliable. He's most likely insane and possibly has been influenced by Odium.

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Well, it's probably fair to point that since the breaking of the oathpact, Tanavast did die. It might very well be that Odium seeing the Oathpact broken opted to kill Tanavast who seemingly was unable ... figure out how to corral his heralds in line for some considerable amount of time. Odd, that.

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Could the Nahel Bond or the Surgebinders them selves lure out the Voidbringers?

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In the Feverstone Keep vision (chapter 52) when Dalinar sees the KR abandon their shards there is a lot of talk of fighting, lines, rear defense forces which makes Dalinar think there is a war going on.  Specifically a soldier says "They can't have gotten through our lines. Not with the Radiants fighting..." There hasn't been a Desolation since the Oathpact was broken, so who were the KR fighting in a war against?  My impression was that instead of fighting huge beasts that require a shardblade the KR were now tied up in political wars over territory/resources, fighting everyday people and they got sick and tired of it.  

 

We see a similar transformation in Dalinar as the fighting breaks him down until he finally gets rid of his shards.  Kaladin also had a negative reaction to the shardblade he won, he had just seen it slice through his friends like butter without slowing and he didn't want anything to do with it. Shardblades were not meant to fight regular people, so for those who's main ideal is "journey before destination" I think they found the journey they were currently on, involvement in human wars, quite disgusting.

 

Edited for clarity. Also, "journey before destination" is why I don't think Darkness has anything to do with the KR.  His mission seems to be about the ends justifying the means which is anathema to the first ideal. Herald is certainly possible, but not KR.  Or at least not current KR.

Edited by Xavien
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In the Feverstone Keep vision (chapter 52) when Dalinar sees the KR abandon their shards there is a lot of talk of fighting, lines, rear defense forces which makes Dalinar think there is a war going on.  Specifically a soldier says "They can't have gotten through our lines. Not with the Radiants fighting..." There hasn't been a Desolation since the Oathpact was broken, so who were the KR fighting in a war against?  My impression was that instead of fighting huge beasts that require a shardblade the KR were now tied up in political wars over territory/resources, fighting everyday people and they got sick and tired of it.  

@Xavien, I quite agree with this part.     Though it was stupid giving over their swords & plate over to just anybody.

 

I do not see any information about how many Desolations occured after the Oathpack was broken and when the KR disbanded.    Also not sure how much time was between them.    

 

I can see how some book characters might look at those events and be erroniously convinced that the Desolations were somehow caused bu the appearance of the Herolds and KRs.     Kind of a chicken and egg circle.   

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Though it was stupid giving over their swords & plate over to just anybody.

  

 

I always thought of it as a "damnation you own souls, we're done damning ours" moment when they threw down their plate and swords.

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Ok, my interpretation of this quote from Darkness has changed.

 

“Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.”

 

 

I no longer think that he's saying that having surgebinders in the world will cause a desolation.

 

If that is he was saying then I think he would of said "but they do not dabble in arts that will return Desolation to this world"

 

Instead he says "that could return Desolation". This suggests to me that people with surgebinding abilities isn't the problem, it's that having these abilities makes them capable of doing something which could trigger a Desolation.

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