Is Harmony just bad at being a God?

[+hwiles]

So I'm re-rereading era 2, and I was wondering if anyone else got the impression that Sazed just isn't very good at his job?  Now I fully appreciate that he never asked for or sought out the position of God-of-Scadrial, and the pressure exerted on him by his two opposing Shardic Intents prevents him from doing a lot of what he would like to do, but...that's sort of the problem.

I really don't mean to be harsh, I loved Sazed in FE and I still appreciate his personality, but when Wax questions him about why he isn't protecting the people of Elendel better his reply is:

Quote

I - the personality you speak to - agree with your indignation.  But the powers that I am, the essence of my self, cannot allow me to take sides." (emphasis added)

He then goes on to struggle against his Shardic Intent, pick sides, and help tip the scales in Wax's favor at every chance he gets.  Basically, what I'm getting at is that Sazed is not well-suited for holding the Shard of Harmony.  He doesn't get along with it well and it doesn't suit his personality.

Between the Set, Trell, and his own struggling against the Intent of his powers, I feel like Sazed is almost certainly doomed to be killed, shattered, or suffer the complete erosion of his persona.  He did a better job as God than anyone else at the time of his ascension possibly could have, but now people are starting to realize that he:

1. Isn't afraid to play favorites and directly intervene in people's lives.  He pretty much admits to deliberately cultivating Wax from a young age...
2. Uses kandra to communicate directly with world leaders (in times of emergency, but still...)
3. Actively hides and suppresses information to suit his own agenda

I imagine Trell's motives for rallying support against Harmony are ultimately self-serving.  That said, I think he (she?) has a lot of good ground to stand on in doing so; I feel like people are bound to get fed up with Harmony's interference in their lives sooner or later.  I know he's only doing what he thinks is best (and maybe he's even doing a decent job from a moral standpoint), but from the perspective of a typical downtrodden citizen, Harmony is literally communicating with and sheltering individual nobles (who themselves have what seem like Godlike powers and vast wealth) while factory workers put in 80 hour work weeks and struggle to feed their kids.  If Sazed doesn't work on his image with the common-man proactively (IE: before Trell starts seriously pushing to convert people), I feel like he's going to find himself hated and possibly replaced.

Sazed intervenes as little as possible, and in principle I respect that.  But, in order to achieve the most results from the littlest interaction, this inadvertently means he's intervening by directing wealthy, powerful, magic-wielding citizens.  In a time of economic strife and rampant problems with income-distribution, I imagine people would be pretty shocked and irritated to find out that God was getting chummy with the upper-class; particularly once they realize that their God is a guy who didn't want the job in the first place, doesn't have a real claim to divinity, and is operating on a best-effort basis with no accountability.

Anyway, if you've made it this far, thanks for reading my rant; what do you think?  Am I just making mountains out of moles hills or could there be something to this?

Edited March 22, 2017 by hwiles

[Tazren]

Who is qualified to be God, though? Sazed seems to have done a decent job. He hasn't been optimal, but there hasn't been any real disasters either. The Elendel Basin was favouritism that's ended a bit poorly, but still, it's not disaster. Their world isn't worse off than what people manage completely on their own. He does protect them from some menacing, external threats, though.

The other Shards that we know of aren't exactly stellar examples of perfection. Preservation thought TLR's tyrannic rule was good and stable, Ruin just wanted to wreck everything, Roshar is a bit of a mess in general, and Autonomy preaches isolation but acts completely contrary to it. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Tazren

[+hwiles]

5 minutes ago, Tazren said:

Who is qualified to be God, though? Sazed seems to have done a decent job. He hasn't been optimal, but there hasn't been any real disasters either. The Elendel Basin was favouritism that's ended a bit poorly, but still, it's not disaster. Their world isn't worse off than what people manage completely on their own. He does protect them from some menacing, external threats, though.

The other Shards that we know of aren't exactly stellar examples of perfection. Preservation thought TLR's tyrannic rule was good and stable, Ruin just wanted to wreck everything, Roshar is a bit of a mess in general, and Autonomy preaches isolation but acts completely contrary to it. 

A good question.  The easy answer is, "certainly no mortal man."  I can tell you with absolutely no shame that I'd be rubbish at it as well.

You're right that he hasn't killed everyone everywhere or installed a tyrannical psychopath, which is a darn good start considering his predecessors.  But he makes mistakes, and, worse, he admits them.  I'm not sure if people would be terribly keen to trust a God with the powers of creation if they couldn't confidently state that said God was at least mostly omniscient; Sazed is just a little too free with announcing the fact that he's super powerful, doing his best, but not all knowing.  I would be deeply troubled by Sazed's words and actions if I were in the Scadrians' shoes; individually, they don't have a lot of options, but together...well, I can see why the idea of Trell coming in and getting rid of Sazed might seriously appeal to the working class.

[Nashan’Elin]

30 minutes ago, hwiles said:

A good question.  The easy answer is, "certainly no mortal man."  I can tell you with absolutely no shame that I'd be rubbish at it as well.

You're right that he hasn't killed everyone everywhere or installed a tyrannical psychopath, which is a darn good start considering his predecessors.  But he makes mistakes, and, worse, he admits them.  I'm not sure if people would be terribly keen to trust a God with the powers of creation if they couldn't confidently state that said God was at least mostly omniscient; Sazed is just a little too free with announcing the fact that he's super powerful, doing his best, but not all knowing.  I would be deeply troubled by Sazed's words and actions if I were in the Scadrians' shoes; individually, they don't have a lot of options, but together...well, I can see why the idea of Trell coming in and getting rid of Sazed might seriously appeal to the working class.

This little mention here has some serious implications. As the people know that Sazed was not always a god, and took the powers from others, as it is written in the Words of Founding, the people know that he could die and be replaced. This is... wow, the idea of a god who could be replaced creates a situation like political elections, where you elect someone to better represent your interests, but you could potentially put a god in place, someone with vast, almost omnipotent (at least on his own Shardworld) power. 

I could see this idea being manipulated by Trell. I like this, I like this a lot. 

[+hwiles]

Thank you, that's one way I can see this going:  Trell capitalizing on average citizens' fear and uncertainty to get them to push Sazed out of their lives.

There could actually be some serious Realmatic consequences for Sazed if his Connection (or rather, people's Connection to him) is eroded in this manner in a widespread and concerted way.  It's hard to fathom how anything other than a fellow Shard could directly challenge Harmony, but, this is Sanderson we're talking about.  I wouldn't mind reading about Harmony being cast down by the common man.

[Nashan’Elin]

5 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Thank you, that's one way I can see this going:  Trell capitalizing on average citizens' fear and uncertainty to get them to push Sazed out of their lives.

There could actually be some serious Realmatic consequences for Sazed if his Connection (or rather, people's Connection to him) is eroded in this manner in a widespread and concerted way.  It's hard to fathom how anything other than a fellow Shard could directly challenge Harmony, but, this is Sanderson we're talking about.  I wouldn't mind reading about Harmony being cast down by the common man.

It could influence Sazed's power over the people. Sort of a "god only has power if he is believed in" thing

[soyperson]

3 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said:

It could influence Sazed's power over the people. Sort of a "god only has power if he is believed in" thing

I was about to say "But Roshar!" and then I remembered that no one remembers Honor and he's dead.

So.

There could be something to this. 

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

tween the Set, Trell, and his own struggling against the Intent of his powers, I feel like Sazed is almost certainly doomed to be killed, shattered, or suffer the complete erosion of his persona.  He did a better job as God than anyone else at the time of his ascension possibly could have, but now people are starting to realize that he:

1. Isn't afraid to play favorites and directly intervene in people's lives.  He pretty much admits to deliberately cultivating Wax from a young age...
2. Uses kandra to communicate directly with world leaders (in times of emergency, but still...)
3. Actively hides and suppresses information to suit his own agenda

When you say people, do you mean the main characters of Wax and Wayne? Because we don't actually know what the greater population of the Basin does and the main characters are not an accurate representation, unless you have some other reason to believe that people are aware of what Harmony has been doing. Also, I'm not sure why using kandra to communicate with world leaders is an issue. 

The last point I'm not sure where that's coming from. I can't recall any instance where he has actively moved to hide information. He definitely hasn't been giving out information when needed, since he's trying not to interfere.

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

Harmony is literally communicating with and sheltering individual nobles (who themselves have what seem like Godlike powers and vast wealth) while factory workers put in 80 hour work weeks and struggle to feed their kids.  If Sazed doesn't work on his image with the common-man proactively (IE: before Trell starts seriously pushing to convert people), I feel like he's going to find himself hated and possibly replaced.

Sazed intervenes as little as possible, and in principle I respect that.  But, in order to achieve the most results from the littlest interaction, this inadvertently means he's intervening by directing wealthy, powerful, magic-wielding citizens.  In a time of economic strife and rampant problems with income-distribution, I imagine people would be pretty shocked and irritated to find out that God was getting chummy with the upper-class; particularly once they realize that their God is a guy who didn't want the job in the first place, doesn't have a real claim to divinity, and is operating on a best-effort basis with no accountability.

Once again, do you have any examples of Sazed directly communicating with people outside of Wax, because I can't recall any.

 

Overall though, I agree that he isn't a very good god, in a sense. The definition of a god is fairly vague, though the one I like to use is "someone who embodies the belief of people through worship, generally possessing supernatural powers." Looking at that, that means the criteria for being a god in this case is how people believe him to act, and how closely he follows those beliefs. Now, Harmony is believed by the pathians to allow for the generation of the path with the most choices. I think he's done that pretty well, so in that sense he's a pretty good god. Looking at the other people, while they acknowledge his existence as a god, they seem to hold the same opinion of him, as someone who watches and allows free choice to propagate. Looking at Steris' reaction when Wax told VenDell to "tell Harmony" indicates that the survivorists really just see him as an entity out there, not really doing anything. Since he is essentially doing that, I'm not seeing an issue with his job at being a god. Yes, he's interfered at times, but largely those times, as far as we've seen, were to preserve people's free choice. If Bleeder had been left to tear apart the city, that would've taken away of lot of choices from people. 

Your argument that people would learn that he wasn't always a god is moot since he's told them that from day zero. 

 

[king of nowhere]

I think it is more of a case of "with great powers, come unrealistic expectations". basically, whatever sazed does, somebody will complain that he should have done better. the problem is that he's very powerful, and it is not clear what exactly he can and cannot do, and everyone has a different idea of what he should do, and there's no objective way to evaluate it. most important, everything he does will have a lot of consequences, some good and some bad, and there's always room to claim he could have done better or worse.

it's a principle applied to everyone with power. you may notice how the only important decision-makers (politicians, entrepreneurs, whatever) who are really appreciated are those who made something from nothing. the guy who started the enterprise, the leader who took a place in anarchy and forged a real country out of it. that's because they got a crappy start and nobody expected them to make better. nobody complains that under george washington the gnp didn't grow as much as it should have, even if that criticism is as good for him as it is for most other presidents.

same goes for sazed. everyone was happy when he led a bunch of refugees to rebuild a civilization. now that at least primary needs are satisfied, everyone is expecting more.

i say it's really impossible to judge sazed. we can judge a politician based on what the other guys did before him, but we have no example of what another god did before sazed. the only case where we saw a single shard not conflicting with another shard on a planet is on nalthis, and we didn't saw enough on what the shard was actually doing.

[Jedal]

Here's the one problem... Sazed has no obligation to be anything to his people. Currently, he is in the process of having his personality eroded by the Intents of the Shards which are in control of him. However, his inner personality still continues to shine through and attempt to create a better future. Sazed was never so inhuman to let people die simply because that was how it was. He stopped threats. To be the embodiment of Harmony would be to do nothing, which we know Sazed is against.  His whole point of acting like he is less than a god is simply to fight the idea that he is some omnipotent spectator. The fact that he holds off whatever evil is threatening Scandrial shows that he has not truly become Harmony. He's doing his best to stay human in a very inhuman form, which is admirable. 

The only way he could be a "bad" god is if being a good Shard was being similar to one's Intent. At that point Rayse is the "best" God according to Hoid.

[DocHoliday]

5 hours ago, Nashan'Elin said:

It could influence Sazed's power over the people. Sort of a "god only has power if he is believed in" thing

tell that to Ati holding Ruin.

[Andy92]

This topic makes me think a bit about what Hoid had to say about Tanavast. 

Spoiler

"Tanavast was a fine enough fellow - bought me drinks once - but he was not God."

I think it's a common theme that the Vessels of the Shards are far from perfect. Makes me wonder who Hoid would consider the "God of the Cosmere" to be, or maybe he doesn't view the Cosmere that way at all. 

I am curious to see how long Sazed stays around as Harmony. It will be interesting to see if this continuous into the next era of Mistborn or if something drastic will happen in The Lost Metal. 

[Spoolofwhool]

As said in Secret History:

Spoiler

The only right the shards have to being gods is that they killed the last guy and took the power.

They were shards before they were gods, and some of them likely are still not gods. Gods are defined by faith, not power.

[Weltall]

34 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I think it's a common theme that the Vessels of the Shards are far from perfect. Makes me wonder who Hoid would consider the "God of the Cosmere" to be, or maybe he doesn't view the Cosmere that way at all. 

If he does, I'm pretty sure the answer would be 'Adonalsium, and by the way He's dead'. I'm also sure that Brandon would RAFO any question along those lines and tell us we're just gonna have to wait for Dragonsteel.

Or possibly, Hoid is truly in on the secret, that all the Cosmere is just words on a page (like he says his own existence began, in The Way of Kings) and he's trying to spread the knowledge of this in a very subtle way by encouraging belief in the God Beyond whose holy name is Brandon Sanderson. xD

[Tazren]

9 hours ago, hwiles said:

A good question.  The easy answer is, "certainly no mortal man."  I can tell you with absolutely no shame that I'd be rubbish at it as well.

You're right that he hasn't killed everyone everywhere or installed a tyrannical psychopath, which is a darn good start considering his predecessors.  But he makes mistakes, and, worse, he admits them.  I'm not sure if people would be terribly keen to trust a God with the powers of creation if they couldn't confidently state that said God was at least mostly omniscient; Sazed is just a little too free with announcing the fact that he's super powerful, doing his best, but not all knowing.  I would be deeply troubled by Sazed's words and actions if I were in the Scadrians' shoes; individually, they don't have a lot of options, but together...well, I can see why the idea of Trell coming in and getting rid of Sazed might seriously appeal to the working class.

I don't really think that people even know what they want from a god. Some people would undoubtedly want him to help them out more. The working class, for instance. Of course, the nobility would hate it if he helped them out too much. If he helps the Elendel Basin fix all their problems, everyone elsewhere is going to hate Harmony because he's favouring the Elendel Basin. He isn't omniscient, so he cannot do everything, everywhere at once. And he has a valid point regarding free will; if he prevented everything that he believes is wrong from happening, he'd be infringing on people's rights to choose, and a lot of people would hate that as well. 

Having a god that's truly omniscient and omnipotent isn't necessarily better. There are plenty of people in our world that hate that idea, even when there are people who believe in it. If Sazed faked being truly omniscient and omnipotent, you'd have the good old "How can he be an omniscient god if he allows bad things to happen?" argument happening. 

If he stops interfering at all, even a little here and there, people are going to stop believing that he exists since he isn't doing anything to prove it. And of course, if he just stops doing anything, Odium and/or Autonomy might just blow the planet apart. So even leaving might be a terrible option at this point. 

Whatever he does, people are going to hate him. There's no way to be a perfect god as long as humans have free will and are conflicted, because if you take action to help someone, you're putting another at a disadvantage. And if you do nothing, people will dislike you for that. Whavever he does, he's screwed on that account. The only thing he could do to make everyone like him would be to rule as a tyrant over Scadrial. He might be a good tyrant as far as such go, fair and just, but he'd be a tyrant nontheless. Just enforce his own morality upon everyone until there's no more people that disagree with him on anything he considers important. Then he'd be popular as hell. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Tazren

[+Extesian]

Poor guy, he lost his divinity virginity and now he's got a devil and angel sitting on his shoulder who are really loud and really convincing. I suspect he is exercising as much of his own will as possible and I wonder if that's what makes a vessel more resistant to its Shard's intent - going against the instincts that come from the Shard.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Extesian
Spelling

[skaa]

14 hours ago, hwiles said:

Thank you, that's one way I can see this going:  Trell capitalizing on average citizens' fear and uncertainty to get them to push Sazed out of their lives.

Oh my. It seems Brandon has revealed the ultimate reason behind the global rise of populism. Guys, I'm afraid Trell might be on Earth right now, and 2016 was his/her fault! 

But Earth isn't Cosm--

SHUT IT, STUPID TRELLIST!

Edited February 15, 2017 by skaa

[+hwiles]

Wow, some great responses right off the bat.  I guess to clarify, when I started this thread my initial definition of "good" in relation to godhood (at least insofar as the term can be applied to Shards like Harmony), was primarily focused on:

1. Adherence to one's Intent
2. The sustainability of one's interactions with their followers

In this sense, yes, I would say Shards like Cultivation and Autonomy are "good" and Shards like Ruin, Odium, and Harmony are "bad."  Odium appears to be desolating worlds and then leaving once he's killed any nearby Shards, which strikes me as dumb and unsustainable, even if he does seem to take joy in it (if a Shard named Odium can truly be said to experience joy...)  If he succeeds he's going to be pretty bored and lonely I would imagine.

Sazed has gifted the people of the Basin with land that never spoils while accidentally damning the Southern Scadrians to lives of hardship and struggle.  Southerners are already poorly adapted to their own environment (physiologically speaking), so I can definitely see them wanting to move into the Basin, either peacefully or otherwise.  They have some legitimate grievances against Harmony and some reasons to want to oust him; he screwed them.  He didn't mean to, but that's not really the point is it?

@Spoolofwhool Well, the Set and Trellists seem aware of Harmony's meddling, and I expect that information to spread.  Harmony uses his position as God to issue a direct request to Wax to be nicer to Marasi because he's worked really hard to get her into a position of power in the constabulary.  Prior to this, we have no indication that he ever had any direct contact with Marasi or her associates, meaning he appears to have been pulling strings in her life in secret; I speculate that the easiest way for him to do this would be through his kandra operatives.  This isn't conclusive evidence that he manipulates non-main characters in a similar fashion, but, given his cavalier attitude about manipulating and cultivating people to fit his desired roles, I think it's reasonable to speculate that he does this off-screen as well.  You're right to cast doubt on it, it's not a foregone conclusion.

I think kandra, Harmony's agents, speaking with world leaders to influence their decisions is a very troubling ethics and integrity issue.  It would be like the Pope calling a senator in private and asking them to vote "no" on a specific bill.  Even if he doesn't threaten them or argue that not doing as he says would be against God's will, his position as a religious leader gives his words weight; it would deeply undermine the spirit of most forms of government in most circumstances.

Harmony attempted to hide knowledge of hemalurgy.  Yes, he relented when Spook put his foot down and wrote a book about it, but he also made his displeasure on the subject clear.  He gives people of the Basin hints and guesses about new technologies to try and motivate them to grow, presumably to give them protection from the Southerners since Sanderson is generally hesitant about cross-overs in the Cosmere, making off-world invaders in era 3 somewhat unlikely for the time being (speculation).  Unfortunately, I feel like this is more likely to increase the animosity and tension between Northern and Southern Scadrians, as Sazed's continued favoritism for the North is going to become pretty obvious when Southerners see how well-off they've been.

Strictly speaking, I can't say I disagree with the logic, earnestness, or good intentions behind Sazed's actions.  He does seem to try hard.  His approach thus far is a valid one, but I feel like contradicts his Intent, which makes it unsustainable.  My claim that Sazed is a bad God comes from this point; if he doesn't find a way of interacting with his people that is in-line with his Intent and doesn't sow greater animosity toward him among the Southerners and Trellists, he's going to find himself either cast down and replaced, or mindless and impotent.

TLDR; Sazed should probably seek employment opportunities in sectors unrelated to divinity.  He made a decent steward and historian, maybe he should go back to that.

[king of nowhere]

39 minutes ago, hwiles said:

@Spoolofwhool

I think kandra, Harmony's agents, speaking with world leaders to influence their decisions is a very troubling ethics and integrity issue.  It would be like the Pope calling a senator in private and asking them to vote "no" on a specific bill.  Even if he doesn't threaten them or argue that not doing as he says would be against God's will, his position as a religious leader gives his words weight; it would deeply undermine the spirit of most forms of government in most circumstances.

 

actually that happens all the time. not the pope calling specifical senators, but religious leaders telling their followers what to vote, which is the same principle. at least sazed  has a good claim at what he says being the actual will of god. also, he doesn't seem to take political sides, he merely want to reduce corruption. unlike in the real world, where it is more common that politicians use religious ties to try to get powerful positions they don't deserve or to favor some interests (at least based on my knowledge of italian politics, where the old party "christian democracy", backed by the religious entourage, was completely wiped out by massive corruption scandals twentyfive years ago. This kind of things don't happen under sazed).

Edited February 15, 2017 by king of nowhere

[Spoolofwhool]

@hwiles

Odium isn't killing shards because he enjoys it, he splintering them because he's afraid.

I'll address other points later.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[+hwiles]

30 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

actually that happens all the time. not the pope calling specifical senators, but religious leaders telling their followers what to vote, which is the same principle. at least sazed  has a good claim at what he says being the actual will of god. also, he doesn't seem to take political sides, he merely want to reduce corruption. unlike in the real world, where it is more common that politicians use religious ties to try to get powerful positions they don't deserve or to favor some interests (at least based on my knowledge of italian politics, where the old party "christian democracy", backed by the religious entourage, was completely wiped out by massive corruption scandals twentyfive years ago. This kind of things don't happen under sazed).

The difference is one of transparency.  If the Pope advocates a specific social agenda item among his followers, that's just religious business as usual; his followers look to him to help interpret doctrine, provide some manner of wisdom and insight, and a bunch of other things.  If, however, he uses his position and influence to privately sway, intimidate, or unfairly influence public policy and law without the public's knowledge or general consent, I believe that many people would have a problem with that, particularly those who don't subscribe as strongly to his belief system.  Religious leaders have to maintain a delicate balance between nurturing the needs of their followers and not sowing animosity and hatred among non-believers.  Harmony's favor for the basin could very well be the kindling to initiate a holy war between Northern and Southern Scadrial.

We're venturing into the dangerous subjects of religion and politics and I don't wish to offend readers with my musings so I'll wrap this up thusly:  I believe Harmony's influence among politicians in Elendel is unfair and problematic, however, this is absolutely an opinion and not an objective fact.  It's probably equally valid to argue that, as their working God, Harmony has a divine mandate to influence events in some way 

[king of nowhere]

@ hwiles

you are right on the whole transparency business. on the plus side, however, sazed is not influencing social policies but only fighting corruption - and the minions of another shard bent on destroying the planet. He's really not much different from a superhero, acting in secret and above the law, but strictly limiting himself to doing it to fight crime - I'm sure nobody would like it if superman went to the major and told him to pass that bill on sewer renovation, for example.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

Well, the Set and Trellists seem aware of Harmony's meddling, and I expect that information to spread.  Harmony uses his position as God to issue a direct request to Wax to be nicer to Marasi because he's worked really hard to get her into a position of power in the constabulary.  Prior to this, we have no indication that he ever had any direct contact with Marasi or her associates, meaning he appears to have been pulling strings in her life in secret; I speculate that the easiest way for him to do this would be through his kandra operatives.  This isn't conclusive evidence that he manipulates non-main characters in a similar fashion, but, given his cavalier attitude about manipulating and cultivating people to fit his desired roles, I think it's reasonable to speculate that he does this off-screen as well.  You're right to cast doubt on it, it's not a foregone conclusion.

Manipulating them is a far cry from your previous point that he was directly supporting them.

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

Harmony attempted to hide knowledge of hemalurgy.  Yes, he relented when Spook put his foot down and wrote a book about it, but he also made his displeasure on the subject clear.  He gives people of the Basin hints and guesses about new technologies to try and motivate them to grow, presumably to give them protection from the Southerners since Sanderson is generally hesitant about cross-overs in the Cosmere, making off-world invaders in era 3 somewhat unlikely for the time being (speculation).  Unfortunately, I feel like this is more likely to increase the animosity and tension between Northern and Southern Scadrians, as Sazed's continued favoritism for the North is going to become pretty obvious when Southerners see how well-off they've been.

Choosing not to talk about hemalurgy isn't the same as attempting to hide it. I haven't found any passage in the books which imply that he actively tried to hide knowledge as you suggested. Also, if he was trying that hard, he wouldn't have explained the basics of hemalurgy in the Words of Founding.

He gives them hints and guesses so that they will grow because he wants them to flourish. Besides, he's already cut back majorly on any hints, since by his own admission, his help has in some part had the opposite effect, as it has stunted their growth. 

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

Well, the Set and Trellists seem aware of Harmony's meddling, and I expect that information to spread.

That isn't saying much since they're in contact with agents of an entity of some power who presumably can observe, to some degree, what Harmony is doing. Nothing has been indicated that they figured that out on their own.

[+hwiles]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

@ hwiles

you are right on the whole transparency business. on the plus side, however, sazed is not influencing social policies but only fighting corruption - and the minions of another shard bent on destroying the planet. He's really not much different from a superhero, acting in secret and above the law, but strictly limiting himself to doing it to fight crime - I'm sure nobody would like it if superman went to the major and told him to pass that bill on sewer renovation, for example.

 

I do like your super hero analogy but I can't recall offhand if we've really had any serious indications that Trell is trying to "destroy the planet," so I'm not prepared to agree on that point.  Don't get me wrong, I fully believe Trell is a self-serving entity, and maybe evil, but I'm not sure yet whether liberating Scadrians is a "front" that he (she?) is promoting, or if it actually is something that he (she?) is legitimately interested in.  If Trell is Autonomy (this speculation probably doesn't belong in this thread...sorry...) then ousting Sazed on the grounds that he is interfering too much with individuals, sort of makes sense.

I like Sazed, and I hope things work out for him.  I'd like to see him straighten his priorities out and obey his Intent a little better.  If he can't do this, then maybe he just isn't a good God and he deserves to be taken down by Trell.  I'm not 100% convinced that Trell's presence on Scadrial is a bad thing for the planets people in the long-term.  Yes, he's starting a revolution and getting innocent people killed, which in principle is a bad thing, but that's not that much different from what Kelsier and Marsh did in era 1, and people seem to like them.

[Spoolofwhool]

41 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I like Sazed, and I hope things work out for him.  I'd like to see him straighten his priorities out and obey his Intent a little better.  If he can't do this, then maybe he just isn't a good God and he deserves to be taken down by Trell.  I'm not 100% convinced that Trell's presence on Scadrial is a bad thing for the planets people in the long-term.  Yes, he's starting a revolution and getting innocent people killed, which in principle is a bad thing, but that's not that much different from what Kelsier and Marsh did in era 1, and people seem to like them.

How good a god he is really has no bearing on his intent. Shards aren't innately gods. Gods are defined by the faith put in them by people so Harmony is a good god if he acts according to how people think he should act. 

Trell getting innocent people killed, but unlike Kelsier and Marsh, there isn't an apparent "lesser of the two evils" thing going on so the two aren't comparable. People liked them because they killed the tyrant who ruled the world and ground them into the dirt. Trell is killing people and defying Harmony, the guy who saved them, and brought them prosperity. Rather huge different. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Spoolofwhool