TWD - Chapter 01 - kaisa 02/13/16 (V, L, G) 5364 words

[kais]

A start to something new, in which I attempt first person and a deeper exploration of ownvoices. Fantasy, probably pretty dark in places, and draft zero so potential for your eyes to bleed is like, 75%. All comments much appreciated.

G=gore, per @Ernei's suggestion. 

Edited February 13, 2017 by kaisa

[kais]

Oh @Ernei, so sorry about the melting person! It was so clinical to me that I didn't see much horror in it, but looking back now it is pretty gross. New warning established!

5 hours ago, Ernei said:

Still no feel for the narrator. I guess that's because they are so focused on the taks at hand.

This is my perpetual issue. I really wanted to get the science right here, but it means we have no idea who the person is. *headdesk*

5 hours ago, Ernei said:

Kilometers!

In the sciences, we use metric, even in the USA!

5 hours ago, Ernei said:

I think I might be asexual

I need clarification. Are you referring to not liking how S kicked a guard between the legs? Sexuality hasn't been established yet so your comment has confused me. As an aside, I have a number of asexual friends so if you're looking to explore the community...

5 hours ago, Ernei said:

Magda is a Polish name

In fact you will see a number of Polish names in most of my works, because I have a surprisingly large number of Polish friends. In fact, the one the character is named after once sent me moonshine vodka in the mail in an old Gatorade bottle, taped to the inside of a child's wood climbing structure. Like, if that doesn't earn you a character naming, I don't know what does.

5 hours ago, Ernei said:

I didn't expect this scale of violence

It's sporadic through the book at this point, but I will definitely be sure to mark future chapters with the G as it applies. Sorry! Thank you for the feedback!

[aeromancer]

Thoughts As I Go: A severed hand. Excellent start … So, the unnamed protagonist is an alchemist. That explains the high level of technical knowledge, when contrasted to the rustic equipment setting. Hmm. Oh, pyridine. That stuff … So, what does alchemy entail? If not the usual lead-to-gold, hopefully not just advanced chemistry … Um, pyridine isn’t alchemy. It’s just chemistry, unless it’s magically being made … Half a skull? Now, I’m just getting a weird picture in my mind because skulls are traditionally fused together, and I don’t know any normal techniques to separate them. Is this just the top half then? … Okay, and we now have our typical palace guard, heavy on brawn and stupidity, specifically bred to do stupid things to drive the plot … More comments about the alchemist – did this individual undergo some kind of transformation? … Oh. They’re a bunch of rogues. Stupid rogues, too, but they come from the same breeding grounds as the aforementioned plot-device guards, so that's fine. (What kind of idiot lights fire to an alchemist's laboratory?)

Thoughts overall: This is going to be blunt. Protagonist isn’t an alchemist. Or at least, not as of the first chapter. Might be, if I see more evidence, but right now, no. When I think alchemist, the classic tropes jump to mind, from Nicholas Flamel to fountain of youth and even Fullmetal Alchemist (I’ve read the manga only). One of the trade tricks of an alchemist is the ability to defy normal chemists by doing things they cannot do, such as grossly accelerating life or transmutation. The extracts used by S do not indicate such to me. I’m familiar with enough science to know agents which might do similar jobs, so I’m just seeing an exceptionally skilled chemist at work. Magic is implied, (calling people witch, and all) but I haven’t seen any evidence, which makes me kind of think that there isn’t going to be real magic, just advance and misunderstood knowledge. Kind of hoping this isn't the case.

EDIT: OK, this is off track, but Ernei - you read Witcher? That's great, I didn't think I'd meet another person who knew that it was a book series.

Edited February 14, 2017 by aeromancer

[kais]

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

Protagonist isn’t an alchemist

 

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

ability to defy normal chemists by doing things they cannot do, such as grossly accelerating life or transmutation. The extracts used by S do not indicate such to me. I’m familiar with enough science to know agents which might do similar jobs, so I’m just seeing an exceptionally skilled chemist at work.

I'm actually trying to be historically accurate, in terms of alchemy (well, to a point anyway), specifically focusing on 1700s-ish Western alchemy. There is a very specific point at which chemistry breaks from alchemy, and for about fifty years or leading up to this, alchemists were incredible chemists (well, some were. Some were just 'turn lead to gold' people). Anyway, S is lurking in that time frame but you are correct in that this is more chemistry than transmutation. For now. It is fantasy, after all.

1 hour ago, aeromancer said:

which makes me kind of think that there isn’t going to be real magic, just advance and misunderstood knowledge.

Oh, there's magic, which is another reason why the alchemy has to skew more chemistry. Otherwise there really isn't a clear distinction. But it looks like I need to toy with this chapter for a while before we continue on.

Thank you so much for the feedback!

[aeromancer]

Meant to comment on this early, but I didn't. The diction you use is seems slightly anachronistic to me. I didn't do any research. You seem to be going for a rustic setting, late Dark Ages to Middle Ages (a pretty standard time period for an alchemist), but you're using a lot of modern jargon, like pyridine, sterilize, angiosperm. I' not sure if S should beusing those words, and even if they were historically accurate for the time, I'd rather an old-school alchemist use case-created alchemist jargon in place of modern words, to give it more of a 'fantasy' feel. That's just my opinion, though.

[neongrey]

P.1

Prose is a little mushy throughout; you're pretty good about cleaning that sort of thing up on redraft so I'm not going to come down too hard on style notes here. Character seems knowledgeable, educated; I think you're going a bit more precise than I generally like (it's the centimeters doing it more than the wood stuff) but that's not per se a problem. Having a concept of sterility in this sense is interesting.

P.2

Definitely still not there yet on the prose; I'm going to avoid commenting further on that unless something changes. Apprenticeship-at-the-fair thing is a little bit cliche but not so much so that I'm going to sweat it too much.

The 'careful about the extract'/'didn't need to be as careful' sticks up some.

Voice is a little bit mechanical though; I'm getting some stuff just based on what the pov character is doing and interested in, but beyond that I'm not getting a huge sense of them as a person; most of this is straight I-did-this-this-is-what-happened. The pride in the work is evident but that's about it.

P.3

Some of the information being presented on this page I can recognize as being important to know, but I don't know that it's very gracefully done. As above on the voice though.

P.4

This one seems to be going on too long for what's actually being said here.

P.5

Getting better over here though.

P.6

Getting a better feel for the character over here as you're starting to hit your stride.

P.7

More interesting, but I think a little bit too bulky still. Nothing too serious. The parrot's an interesting locational marker.

P.8

--

P.9

Complete/not finished is I think not the most clear of distinctions. I appreciate it but I think it might be a detail that's mostly obfuscatory.

p.10

--

P.11

'fistful of crotch' is, I think, perhaps a slightly awkward phrase.

p.12

--

P.13

--

P.14

--

P.15

Better again over here, most of the non-noted pages above were just more of the same in re clunk but you're picking up again over here.

P.16

Oh, yikes.

p.17

Twenty-seven? That feels a little old for the previous context, especially in terms of seeking out an apprenticeship. Not entirely so sure at the expectation that the killing here should be old hat or just plain ol' normal; it being expected to be necessary for someone in such a clearly stigmatized line of work is something I can run with but otherwise it's a bit much, I think. I see S isn't about to shake it off though, so it's mostly the perceived expectations of others on this that need modulation, I think.

p.18

Disposing of the body's not going to be occurring? even if it's dismissed

--

Overall, yeah, the prose definitely needs work and the initial framing of the apprentice-at-the-fair thing was kind of old hat but it seems that this is going in a different direction so I'm not going to sweat that. Framework's pretty interesting to start; the alchemical stuff here is really interesting and I appreciate that you're going about it in a way that it's clear that someone familiar could get more out of it, without really losing stuff to the reader who isn't familiar. There's a pretty big pop-culture tendency to use alchemy either just a fancy hat on straight-up magic or to beeline for lead-to-gold transmutational stuff which I think is a disservice to both, and really neglects the ways it predicated modern chemistry; there's a lot you can do with the actual concepts as a basis for branching off, and I think you're working that potential pretty well to start.

 

Edited February 15, 2017 by neongrey

[Mandamon]

On 2/13/2017 at 11:07 PM, kaisa said:

Oh, there's magic, which is another reason why the alchemy has to skew more chemistry. Otherwise there really isn't a clear distinction. But it looks like I need to toy with this chapter for a while before we continue on.

Interesting. I hadn't caught that there's straight-up magic involved yet, even having read a few chapters on. I was thinking this was more hard-science fantasy, hence the alchemy/chemistry.

[kais]

1 hour ago, Mandamon said:

I hadn't caught that there's straight-up magic involved yet,

My 'plan' was to keep the magic stuff up in the air until about halfway or so through the book. We'll see how that goes. Heh.

[kais]

On February 13, 2017 at 10:51 PM, Ernei said:

Anyway that was not a place to do that.

Bah, exploration of gender and/or sexuality is always welcome in my threads! Again, I don't know about the resources available in Poland, but I can send you links to stuff if you want to explore the ace spectrum more (and it is a pretty big, interesting spectrum). 

[kais]

On 2/14/2017 at 11:51 AM, aeromancer said:

I' not sure if S should beusing those words

Another of my beta readers brought this up, for different reasons. I'm toying around with them now. Bonus, bone oil sounds way cooler than pyridine.

On 2/14/2017 at 7:04 PM, neongrey said:

Having a concept of sterility in this sense is interesting.

Yeah, I go back and forth on this. Time period wise, it's accurate (especially since S works with fungi). But maybe not appropriate for the setting so much.

On 2/14/2017 at 7:04 PM, neongrey said:

hat feels a little old for the previous context, especially in terms of seeking out an apprenticeship.

If you are around a few chapters from now I'd like your thoughts on the age then. I had the higher age on purpose, but if it pulls too much here I will need to adjust.

On 2/14/2017 at 7:04 PM, neongrey said:

I think you're working that potential pretty well to start.

Thank you! If it was interesting and held your attention, then that is half the battle. Clean up I can do, especially noting this is draft zero and clunk is inevitable. Thank you for the feedback!

[Hobbit]

Well that was quite the chapter.  It read very quickly.  I was totally engaged, but I will say if the entire story is at that pace and that level of "darkness," it would be too much for me personally.  Still, it was engrossing, and it certainly set up your conflict well.  I also enjoyed your plant and fungus knowledge - it makes your MC's expertise very believable.

You definitely succeeded in creating plenty of stakes.  (One of these times, I am going to type "steaks" and not catch it.)  The hook at the beginning didn't work as well for me (see below), and the hook at the end felt a little forced, but in concept I think it works well.  Character is great.  There were some blocking issues in the fight where I didn't know how people got where they ended up, or couldn't picture their motions, but tension-wise it flowed fast enough that I didn't even take the time to stop and highlight where I was getting confused.  So good job!

Specifics:

I definitely thought the "hand" in the first line was actually the size of a child, as in giant.  I enter into fantasy stories making zero assumptions, so I took you literally. That made the rest of the intro rather confusing, since I was like, "What happened to the giant hand?"  I had similar instances of taking you too literally - when you said, "with fingers woven into the sides" did you mean disembodied fingers, or the MC's fingers? - which overall contributed to me not being able to picture what was happening in the first 1.5 pages.  (I realize now you were probably trying to avoid a pronoun on purpose, but I was totally picturing a basket with shriveled fingers woven into it.)  Once I hit the MC's motives (getting to the fair and getting an apprenticeship), I was tracking.

He’d tried to catch it with his hands, a hint too late, and left streaks of blood mixed with the mist on his face.
I didn't get what was happening here.

I'm also very interested in the MC's relationship with Mom.  If the mom sold her other children, what's different about the MC?  And at 27, he/she (pronoun, grr) seems to still be in some ways under Mom's thumb, which is interesting.  Their relationship doesn't come across as "love," but there's definitely attachment, and interdependence.  Hmmm.

Your fungus gel powder is very creepy and shocking.  Did you know that?  I was covering my mouth during that part.  I think my eyes were bleeding, but not from what you thought.  But I was a little disbelieving that the MC would have gotten none of the fungus powder on her/him.  Anyway, I thought it was mostly horrifying in a good way.  As long as that doesn't happen too often, which it sounds like it won't.

Finally, after reading others' comments about the sterility of the prose and the details, I suppose... maybe this is just the scientist side of me talking, but I thought it was 100% appropriate and made total sense.  I thought it leant believability to the MC's activities.

On February 13, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Ernei said:

it's generally refreshing to see a MC, whose parents aren't dead/evil. (maybe I read too much YA)

Hahaha this made me laugh.

[Robinski]

Well, well – here we go again. I’m curious to read something other than Nee/Atal from you, and excited that we’re in another genre. Having said that, Space Opera is somewhat akin to fantasy with space ships, imho, so perhaps not that far removed, but I am interested in what made you depart SF for fantasy when I thought you might consolidate your publishing career in the genre which you will be (initially) known for by the public. Unless you’re not planning to push this as your next published project.

Hey ho, what do I know!

• “The hand was child-sized“ – I know, I know – sorry. I won’t do any more grammar at this stage.

• “Angiosperm or gymnosperm” – Okay – I was confused here, but only because you said it was fantasy, that doesn't mean it can't be set in mordern ('scientific') times, of course.

• “They weren’t likely to stay long enough for it to matter, or if they were planning on staying, the smell would likely drive them off. Either was fine with me.” – Getting some nice character coming through; competitiveness, ambition, competence.

• “The alchemist,” I finished for him” – lol.

• “every awkward stare at my body” – This is a very particular way of expressing it, I take from this that there is some kind of body 'issue'. Not with image, but going deeper than that.

• “left streaks of blood mixed with the mist on his face” – Huh? I'm confused. Did the vapour cause that?

• I think the description in this piece is really strong (so far), in a way that same in the Ard trilogy was less so.

• “Here was my mother’s heart and my mother’s legacy” – There seems to be an inconsistency in the use of the word ‘mother’, which is capitalised a lot at the beginning, but seems to be less so now. Because of protag’s strong reaction to being called ‘daughter’, I was starting to think that it isn’t a biological relationship, and that Mother was a title. Now, I’m unsure what to think.

•  “damp air would finish settling the bones” – Why is this relevant, the bones were dismissed before as a useless by-product?

• “I’m not picky about what kinds of bones I use” – Wasn’t it said before that the bones were unimportant, and the important part was already in the pot (I presumed that meant the flesh)?

• “The other word, ‘woman’, burned worse than the smell of the pyridine” – Okay - this tends to confirm the earlier point about 'daughter'. I'm glad you added to that with this, and didn't leave the reader wondering too long.

• “I jerked, stumbled into the door frame, and landed the wrong way on my ankle” – I don’t get this; I can’t picture what just happened. Also, seems contrived that the injury occurred at this moment, through no clear cause – feels like author ex machina.

• “and the night my sudden ally” – call 'illegal' blocking - 5 yard penalty, repeat first down. I'm pretty sure I didn't know it was night time until now.

• I’m liking what I’ve seen of the ‘magic’ (alchemy) so far, good job. Gore? Yes, fine. This seems different, and therefore interesting.

• “Thu’s witch was loose” – Hmm, so how is it the reputation of being a witch will or already has attached to them, but not the mother? A bit unclear on that. Or is it the case that mother can’t do any of the alchemical stuff? I forget any earlier references.

So, I enjoyed this plenty. Good, solid character set up, much better description than AFD/SD/TD, I think, and good action right from the off. I found the ‘combat’ very convincing; there was desperation, and neither side was especially competent, which always feels more realistic than blinding skill – which is overdone.

I like the way you kept me guessing how this episode was going to turn out. Would the kidnapping succeed; would the kidnappers lose their prey in the woods. I like that they were foiled, because you laid a trail of comments that seemed to spell out how things would go if the kidnapping succeeded, making that success seem likely.

Nice job. More please.

<R>

p.s. And with that, I am caught up from October 2016 - yaaaaayyyyy!!  

[kais]

On 2/17/2017 at 9:08 AM, Hobbit said:

was actually the size of a child

Heh. I've moved up the primate reference to hopefully deal with this.

On 2/17/2017 at 9:08 AM, Hobbit said:

did you mean disembodied fingers, or the MC's fingers

Disturbing, and now I kind of want there to be fingers woven into it... but alas, I've cleaned up the language.

On 2/17/2017 at 9:08 AM, Hobbit said:

I didn't get what was happening here.

No one did, apparently. Berry bush fail!

On 2/17/2017 at 9:08 AM, Hobbit said:

And at 27, he/she (pronoun, grr) seems to still be in some ways under Mom's thumb, which is interesting.

A few people have caught on the age, so I will be interested to see thoughts going forward. I did deliberately pick this age for a reason, so hopefully that will become clearer later.

On 2/17/2017 at 9:08 AM, Hobbit said:

Your fungus gel powder is very creepy and shocking.  Did you know that?

Did you know it's a real thing!! Like, not to the extent of damage here in the book, but my plan was to take the creepy stuff in nature and just sort of stretch it a bit. 

On 2/17/2017 at 9:08 AM, Hobbit said:

As long as that doesn't happen too often, which it sounds like it won't.

I'm about halfway through writing this book, and S has filmed just this one person. 

On 2/17/2017 at 9:08 AM, Hobbit said:

maybe this is just the scientist side of me talking, but I thought it was 100% appropriate and made total sense.  I thought it leant believability to the MC's activities.

This is what I am struggling with. Lay readers want a certain amount of voice, but this is first person from a proto-chemist. I need to find a way to strike a balance between the matter-of-factness of S and the ability to capture reader empathy from those not in the sciences. 

Thank you so much!

28 minutes ago, Robinski said:

but I am interested in what made you depart SF for fantasy when I thought you might consolidate your publishing career in the genre which you will be (initially) known for by the public. Unless you’re not planning to push this as your next published project.

This new two book set (this one and then the sequel) are my hope at getting an agent. My departure from scifi is due to my complete ineptitude with physics. I love space opera, but I really struggle with spaceships and lasers and all that jazz. I work in forests, so I figured I should probably write about forests, especially since forests are creepy as all get out. Likely this will go under a different pen name though, since generally authors don't switch genres without casualties.

31 minutes ago, Robinski said:

Huh? I'm confused. Did the vapour cause that?

*mutters about the darn berry bushes*

32 minutes ago, Robinski said:

the Ard trilogy was less so.

I'm trying very hard to work on the descriptive language. Being in a forest instead of a spaceship very much helps with this

33 minutes ago, Robinski said:

hy is this relevant, the bones were dismissed before as a useless by-product?

Chemistry nuggets are left in for those well-versed in the field.

35 minutes ago, Robinski said:

(I presumed that meant the flesh)

I've cleaned this up. The flesh is unimportant. It's the bone stuff that boils off to make bone oil, from which pyridine was distilled in less-modern times. Also, due to reader confusion, I've changed all references of pyridine, which is a modern word, to just 'bone oil', which is simultaneously more creepy and less exact. It bothers the scientist in me, because the oil still needs to be distilled, but whatever. It's draft zero.

37 minutes ago, Robinski said:

I'm glad you added to that with this, and didn't leave the reader wondering too long.

LOL. Well some readers would have picked up on it anyway, but @Mandamon suggested a bit more beating over the head in this first chapter, so I have.

38 minutes ago, Robinski said:

feels like author ex machina.

Edited, although I have tripped and messed up my ankle on a door jam one too many times to count.

39 minutes ago, Robinski said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't know it was night time until now.

That... would be because of edits. Previous references to night were deleted. Grrr.

42 minutes ago, Robinski said:

and neither side was especially competent,

Also a theme I'm trying to run with!

43 minutes ago, Robinski said:

And with that, I am caught up from October 2016 - yaaaaayyyyy!!

I can't believe you caught up with the entire backlog!!!

Thank you for the comments! I'm looking forward to subbing chapter two. I think my writing must have really developed over this past year, because I can remember subbing AFD chapter one on here to a much bloodier display (deserved, of course). 

[Robinski]

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

my complete ineptitude with physics

Lol. My dad was, for many years, Head of Physics at a large private school in Glasgow, and I was always better at Chemistry - how well do you think that went down?  

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

I'm trying very hard to work on the descriptive language.

It's working.

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

I have tripped and messed up my ankle on a door jam one too many times to count.

Doesn't mean all your characters need to be improbably clutsy  

2 hours ago, kaisa said:

I can remember subbing AFD chapter one on here to a much bloodier display (deserved, of course)

It was all about the Physics  (and the description) - but yes, I feel we've seen your writing grow this past year, but I think it's clear to see you are on more 'solid' (if slightly spongey) ground in the forest.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Robinski

[M.Puddles]

Hi Kasia, 

I read through this quick.  It was interesting, and easy to read and I'd easily turn the page and read chapter two. 

 

I noted a few things though. 

 

The scene doesn't open up with much setting.  It takes a few pages to reveal the time of day, and I don't know what the room/house looks like.  I know it gets destroyed, so it isn't likely to be revisted, but I did notice it missing.  The first could of pages were a bit abstract setting wise.  I don't think you established your light source inside the house either.  

I think you could open with a stronger line.  One that doesn't use a 'to be' verb.

Suggestion: I tossed the child sized hand, steaming and disconnected from the whole onto the floor with the rest of the bones...or something along those lines.

There are a few places where I noticed unecssary filtering. These are thigns likely changed in a future draft:

Page 1

They had to be so hot so as to be sterile.  -> I needed them hot and sterile. 

Page 2

Even that small amount of extract made my house smell of fish. -> Such a  small amount and my house reakeed of fish.

.but for now the vapor had to be left to scald my skin and churn my stomach. -> ...but for now the vapor scaleded my skin and chruned my stomach. 

Quote

As the fruit sank, the color expanded outwards in concentric rings and slowly dropped down, until the liquid was clear no more.  

 The color dropped?

I allowed myself a smile as the rings beld together, though I still fought the urge to voit.  -> I smiled through clenched and tried not to vomit as the rings bled toghther.

Page 3

...and fill the middle pouch on my belted sash. -> and fill the middle pouch of my belted sash.

The house reeked of fish, and those not used to pyridine can get terrible headaches along with the standard digestive upset.  ->

The house reeked of fish, and those not used to pyridine can get terrible headaches and upset stomachs.  

 

The pace slows down for the next page.  I think the backstory goes on too long here.  It feels like it takes much too long for her to answer the door.

 

 

Page 4

Quote

The last batch from early this morning....

Batch of visitors?  Unclear.

 

A breeze came in first and blew mist right in my face. ->  A breeze covered my face in/with mist/ The draft misted my face. 

I think 'came' is too weak a verb here. 

Quote

...as if he'd been thrown from his mount.

If the soldier had fallen from his mount, he'd look banged up and not just soaked. 

The queen's comission piece was done--Mother had finished it just before she left...

 

The two Queensguard in front of me had to be new, or maybe had gotten lost on the way. ->

The Queensguard has t to be new, or maybe they'd just traipsed through the forest lost before finally finding me. 

 

Page 5

"What sort of witchery is in here!?"

I'm not sure how YA reacts to double punctuation, but I'd use 'there' instead of 'here'.  

Quote

They demanded a certian level of professionalness.  

Aswakrd wording.  Perhaps 'tact' or 'decorum' or 'professionalism'? 

 

Page 6

You start by repeating yourself a little:

Quote

My attempt at plesantness evaporated. There was bite to my words, though not for the reasons the guards thought, I'm sure. 

Suggestion: My words had bite, though  probably not for the reasons they thought.  

The second man sneezed and in doing so sent a spray of water across... ->  The second man sneezed sending a spray of water...

 

Missing a 'd' on gesture: I stepped bakc and gesture to the small dinning tablee...

 

Page 7

Here was my mother's heart and my mother's  legacy, and her father's before her. 

 

Why don't  you refer to her mother's mother as grandmother?

 

Page 8 

GOOD

Page 9

Odd word choice when your character says "Which we are liscened for..." shortly after being accused of being a witch.

 

Page 10 

GOOD

Page 11

A master woodcutter would be worth more than a witch, but we seem to be out of that option. -> A master woodcutter woudl be worth more than a witch, but we'll make due with you.

You write that the girl "bit her lip" and then bites the man's hand in the same sentence.  It removed me from the story for a moment. 

I'm not liking the 'non-guard- noun.  

Page 12

You repeat an earlier line here.  I think you can cut the line: "We'd have preferred the woodcutter, but you will do."

It reads well without it. 

She starts running without any mention of her ankle.  It would burn as she ran, no?

Page 13 

GOOD 

Page 14

Shouldn't the reaction cause heat if it's eatching through metal?

 

Page 15

Odd flow to the sentences.  

...like the villagers did, using disdain to curl the word into illegitimacy. 

...as me moved towards me in a crouch. 

...and he motioned for me to bring my hands together in front. 

Page 16

GOOD 

Page 17

I should have had this experience already, of taking another's life.  

This needs to be phrased differently. 

 

There was urgency now, to finding her, more os than nust irritated clients. 

-I understood what you were saying, but it was a bit cumbersome.

 

Page 18

Self-defense it might have been, but no one deserved to die like that. ->

Nobody deserved to die like that, self-defense or not. 

 

Recap:

This is a good start to your story.  It's exciting, interesting and fun. 

 

 

 

[kais]

7 hours ago, Robinski said:

Doesn't mean all your characters need to be improbably clutsy

Nope, but I want S to be... clearly not great with the physical. If the door jam issue ends up being your biggest quibble with the book, I'll call it a win!

10 minutes ago, M.Puddles said:

There are a few places where I noticed unecssary filtering

These are mostly voice and stylistic differences. Another thing I'm working on in my writing is voice. Since this is first person, the voice is going to be S's, which means the voice is going to be technical and occasionally oblique. I'm good with this for now. Of course, this is draft zero, so the book could be on a completely different planet in a few months.

12 minutes ago, M.Puddles said:

I'm not sure how YA reacts to double punctuation

Unsure myself. This is adult fantasy. My current editor hasn't struck down any double punctuation yet, although she does get particular about what order they come in.

13 minutes ago, M.Puddles said:

You write that the girl

I think you may have missed the world building in this chapter. S is definitely not a girl. 

15 minutes ago, M.Puddles said:

She starts running without any mention of her ankle.  It would burn as she ran, no?

Urp, good point. 

15 minutes ago, M.Puddles said:

Shouldn't the reaction cause heat if it's eatching through metal?

Not a reaction! BWAHAHAHA! #fungalchemistry

Thank you for the feedback!

 

[neongrey]

10 hours ago, kaisa said:

I've changed all references of pyridine, which is a modern word, to just 'bone oil', which is simultaneously more creepy and less exact. It bothers the scientist in me, because the oil still needs to be distilled, but whatever. It's draft zero.

tbh yeah, i kind of object to the change on this sort of ground; it being fantasy doesn't obviate technical language being created by technical people; I like a measure of fuziness with stuff like numeric precision, certainly but in the case of 'this is the word for the thing', that is the word for the thing, and it seems to be lowering how aware the character themself is of what they're doing. Is S going to be viewing the work in the creepiest possible way?

On the other hand too-- clearly S is also dealing with non-technical people, and pyridine is going to mean literally nothing to them. If S has to describe it that way to other people for clarity's sake...

[kais]

@neongrey I think what I have to decide is if pyridine is already in the world (and therefore named), or if S has discovered it. If its already in the world (and I want to line up time periods appropriately here, too), then I also have to make a decision about whether or not S would know about it, since there is no alchemical training set forth. 

Such work over one word!

[Hobbit]

1 hour ago, kaisa said:

Such work over one word!

Just my two cents: in my mind, "distilled bone oil" only ups the creepy factor.  Which I think in this case is a plus.

[Mandamon]

4 hours ago, Hobbit said:

Just my two cents: in my mind, "distilled bone oil" only ups the creepy factor.  Which I think in this case is a plus.

I agree. It also doesn't make the reader potentially run to look up the word.

[M.Puddles]

Fair enough.  I was curious if this character may be something non-human. I puzzled over the bits where her mother, wasn't her mothre but it was hazy to me, and I don't know how else to refer to that character.  And to be honest, most everything I read still uses only two gender based pronouns, and that is still my default setting.  Would you mind highlighting what I should have noticed?  

[kais]

21 hours ago, M.Puddles said:

and I don't know how else to refer to that character.

As with people, you refer to them as they refer to themselves. We are in first person, and S has referenced consistently away from the feminine, so at the very least you should not refer to S as 'her', or 'girl', or 'woman', or 'daughter'.

21 hours ago, M.Puddles said:

most everything I read still uses only two gender based pronouns, and that is still my default setting

That isn't really an excuse to not follow gender cues. Most everything I read isn't on the binary, so should I just call everyone 'zie' or 'them' because its in my comfort zone?

22 hours ago, M.Puddles said:

Would you mind highlighting what I should have noticed?

I...

It took me some time to decide how to respond to this. At the most basic reaction yes, I do mind, since this does not appear to be a failure of the writing (as in, the majority did not have difficulty picking up the gender distinction), but in the spirit of education, I'll move forward with it.

“Are you her daughter then?” the short one asked. “S the…?”

            “The alchemist,” I finished for him. My attempt at pleasantness evaporated. There was bite to my words, though not for the reasons the guards thought, I’m sure. I was no ones daughter, and that word would stick in my chest now, for days. It would squirm there, under bindings and layers of clothes. Make me second-guess myself at the fair with every introduction and every awkward stare at my body. In that moment, I hated them, these two men, so sure in their position despite the mud and the hour. 

S makes it clear here that 1) the word 'daughter' should not be used to define, 2) the word is very bothersome to the point of inducing anxiety, and mentions 3) a binder under clothing, which is perhaps the most basic of tools used to conceal breasts. S's response is "I am her child," which is a direct, gender-neutral contradiction to the word 'daughter'.

The guards catch on quickly, which is world building to indicate this is not an unknown phenomenon. Later they respond with 

The court anatomist should perhaps verify that our woman alchemist hasn’t been stealing village children.”

Directly insulting S on the gender front. S reacts as one might expect:

The other word, ‘woman’, burned worse than the smell of the bone oil.

S has now twice rejected the feminine words. S directly addresses the issue to the readers here:

my body broke no laws in the queendom.

And then the final jab is here:

She has a queer name... coming from one of the guards.

 

Does that help?

 

 

[M.Puddles]

Hi Kasia,  

Thanks for taking the time to point out some of the world building.  Although others may have caught the mentions, many readers may not.  The writers I know, usually, read closer than most of the readers I know.  I can only imagine the look on your face as you read this comments.  I wouldn't be surprised if you were doing something akin to a *head/desk*.  

Let me review your explanation and share how I read the scene, just in case it might help you, me, or both of us. 

Quote

 “The alchemist,” I finished for him. My attempt at pleasantness evaporated. There was bite to my words, though not for the reasons the guards thought, I’m sure. I was no ones daughter, and that word would stick in my chest now, for days. It would squirm there, under bindings and layers of clothes. Make me second-guess myself at the fair with every introduction and every awkward stare at my body. In that moment, I hated them, these two men, so sure in their position despite the mud and the hour. 

 

I thought the reason for the scorn here was because she was sensitive to the noun 'witch'.  

Quote

S makes it clear here that 1) the word 'daughter' should not be used to define, 2) the word is very bothersome to the point of inducing anxiety, and mentions 3) a binder under clothing, which is perhaps the most basic of tools used to conceal breasts. S's response is "I am her child," which is a direct, gender-neutral contradiction to the word 'daughter'.

 

I slowed, and puzzled over this as I read.  My train of thought directed me towards the lines that she was illegitimate, or adopted or perhaps some sort of golem. 

When she satated that 'I am her daughter', I took that as a point of pride about her connection to her mother more than her identity. 

Quote

The court anatomist should perhaps verify that our woman alchemist hasn’t been stealing village children.”

I thought this was a creepy rape type of threat. 

Quote

my body broke no laws in the queendom.

I assumed that this was  character building, and that that 'my body' was a way of saying 'me/I'.  

Quote

She has a queer name, too. Magda. 

Rightly/Wrongly I read this as the original meaning of the word.  Most fantasies are pre-industrial and that word is more a modern one.  

 

I'm sorry if my interpreation furstrated you. It may be because of my limited exposure to genders that go beyond male/female.  The place where I live is way too homogenous, and although we are taking steps and trying to do better, we dno't have a lot of exposure to a lot of cultures beyon Euro/First Nation.  In terms of stories,  I mostly read a cuople of fantasy books and a few non-fiction books at the same time.  The non-fiction books cater to cognition and learning and the Fantasy books tend to veer towards Peter Brett, Joe Abercrombie, Mark Lawrence, Rothfuss, and Hobb. I also read my sister's YA romance books.  These are the books I like and there aren't many gender issues goign in them.  One of the reasons why I purposefully read your work is because I realize that I am weak in this area, and want to get better.  

I'd like to continue reading and critiquing yoru work, because I find it challenging and I learn from it.  If don't find them helpful, I understand. I'll keep to reading them and leaving my comments to myself.  

 

 

[kais]

12 minutes ago, M.Puddles said:

I'd like to continue reading and critiquing yoru work, because I find it challenging and I learn from it.  If don't find them helpful, I understand. I'll keep to reading them and leaving my comments to myself.  

I'd never ask anyone to not critique my work! You are most welcome to continue. I went to art school. There is very little in an actual crit that can upset me. I was trying to be honest here, in my response, not about how your original crit went, but the request to explain. In many marginalized communities that can be seen as a slight, as it is perpetually on the marginalized to explain, instead of on the majority to do the reading. It cannot consistently be the marginalized person's duty to bring the world up to speed. This is exhausting and leads to burn out and anger. And like, I don't want you to think its not okay to ask for clarification, but I would prefer if it came prefaced with 'so I went back in and reread, thinking about what you said, and I still don't get it so could you give me some pointers?' That at least, is trying to meet me halfway.

17 minutes ago, M.Puddles said:

I am her daughter

S never said this though. S said 'I am her child'. I think what's happening is this sort of pervasive, aggressive binary gendering of characters that isn't shaking. In your return (which I do appreciate), you once again referred to S in the feminine, although I quite specifically said this was not appropriate. I look forward to your thoughts on chapter two, which is much less subtle about this issue, but I caution to please be aware of pronoun usage. In this, especially, as I have mentioned I am trending much more into ownvoices with this manuscript, your continued misgendering of S feels like a misgendering of me. And while I appreciate the emotional fodder it gives me for future chapters of TWD, it does still hurt.

 

[M.Puddles]

I'm sorry for referring to S as feminine, again.  It's not on purpose.  That doesn't excuse it but I prefer to understand intention when I've experienced a slight.  

I'll think on what you've said.  My initial reaction is that it IS up to the marginalized to SPEAK, and to keep speaking until enough people hear a message and form so many places that it can take off...But I'm probably biased, based on my own experiences and 

 I did re-read your story before I wrote back and asked for clarification.   I want you to know that.

I'm going to think on what you've said. I often come back with a new understanding of things when I do.