Romance you hope will happen?

[maxal]

24 minutes ago, geralt said:

First of all, I have to say I agree about Adolin being smart, but I think the fact that Kaladin is implied to be more than that is actually made very clear in the book. Like for example in the scene where he points out how if Shallan wanted to see a chrisalis, she didn't have to go out with the expedition and she compares them. The exact quote is:

"Blast. A solid argument. It was a good thing Adolin hadn’t thought of that. The prince was wonderful, and he certainly wasn’t stupid, but he was also . . . mentally direct.
This bridgeman was proving himself different. The way he watched her, the way he thought. Even, she realized, the way he spoke. He talked like an educated lighteyes."

Intelligence is much more than merely thinking about one thing, one time. Intelligence is what guides an entire being's gestures and thoughts. The fact Adolin didn't think of it does not make him less smart than Kaladin and the fact Kaladin thought of it does not make him smarter. Adolin might have thought the same thing, for all we know, and not voice a word because Adolin never attempts at being smart while Kaladin takes every opportunity he has to show others he is smart.

I much prefer to judge characters intelligence based on their actions. Adolin might not have asked the clever question this one time, but he's the one who registered the information and who aptly used it when required to win a decisive battle. I say that was quite smart and I say I find it smarter than having thinking about the question. Anyone can think of questions, anyone can speaks great words to appear smart, not everyone is able to use knowledge in a decisive manner in a high-stress situation.

Also, being mentally direct does not mean dumb, it just means Adolin speaks his mind without taking care to process his thoughts to make them appear smarter. A lot of people are behaving the same and a lot of those people also happen to be very smart: smart isn't just about how you voice your thoughts, it is also about what you do with them.

[+Wax]

Shalladin is my fav of so far.  Just the banter they had while crossing the shattered plains was the best comic/romantic relief in the book.

In fact I think romance is underplayed in Brandon's books.  There is one scene where Pattern comes back to report to Shallan on Dalinar and Navani making interesting "noises" 

The only person I think is yin to Jasnah's yang is Lopen.  Either that or she's a pseudo Elf character who personally doesn't like the idea of being someone's property - sort of implied from the discussion in WoK.

Lift-Gawx appears like a good set up when Lift can get around to it (and if she grows up).  They already had a magical pseudo kiss/breath to wake up cinderella scene 

I am concerned about the lack of romance instead.  I think besides Vin in mistborn, we barely saw any romance.  Even in Wax and Wayne, romance was limited, despite the number of female characters (although it was a bit improved in bands of mourning).

BS has said that he writes each stormlight book like a trilogy... so I really hope we see more.

I've never read a romance novel, but wouldn't mind more romantic/comedy relief from all the desolation talk.

 

 

[Starla]

 

17 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

I am actually hoping for some Jasnah and someone completely unexpected... one of the bridgemen. Lighteyes and Dark eyes needs to be done (also Kal doesn't count since Radiant eyes)

How about Sigzil? He is smart, well travelled, and a potential worldhopper. For some reason he reminds me of Sazed... maybe because the audiobook narrator uses the same voice for them both, so they are the same person in my head. :-)

Not that I think Jasnah needs a romantic partner, but I think they would make interesting companions.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

6 hours ago, Starla said:

 

How about Sigzil? He is smart, well travelled, and a potential worldhopper. For some reason he reminds me of Sazed... maybe because the audiobook narrator uses the same voice for them both, so they are the same person in my head. :-)

Not that I think Jasnah needs a romantic partner, but I think they would make interesting companions.

Agreed but IF she were to have one I think it would be more interesting if it was Teft or Rock for a gathering of opposites lol

"Airsick lowlander"

"Behemoth Horneater" lol the insult battle could be epic

[sandstorm179]

Does anyone else kind of ship Jasnah and Shallan?

[Radiant_Jaeger]

9 minutes ago, sandstorm179 said:

Does anyone else kind of ship Jasnah and Shallan?

Nah the teacher student thing is too creepy/unethical

Jasnah and that Weeper assassin though? I'd ship that

[Zennix]

16 minutes ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Nah the teacher student thing is too creepy/unethical

Jasnah and that Weeper assassin though? I'd ship that

If you add Kaladin to the mix, so much the better. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Zennix

[Radiant_Jaeger]

2 minutes ago, Zennix said:

If you add Kaladin to the mix, so much the better. 

Hey now. Hey now, let's not turn this legitimate suggestion into some kind of Storming debauchery... 

 

[Zennix]

What?! I meant a love triangle situation where Jasnah is confused about whether she likes Kaladin (a man) or the Weeper (a woman). Because it seems to me like she had a bad experience with a man in the past. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

7 minutes ago, Zennix said:

What?! I meant a love triangle situation where Jasnah is confused about whether she likes Kaladin (a man) or the Weeper (a woman). Because it seems to me like she had a bad experience with a man in the past. 

lol I have a filthy mind so I immediately assume you meant ménage au trois

My bad, but  LGBT confusion (with one' down identity) might not be the best suited entanglement during a medieval magic apocalypse with the literal incarnation of Hatred orchestrating the world's downfall.

actually now that I write it, What better place is there! Lol

[Guest]

On 30.4.2017 at 11:56 PM, axcellence said:

Shalladin is my fav of so far.  Just the banter they had while crossing the shattered plains was the best comic/romantic relief in the book.

Well, apparently you and I are in the minority there. Only because of an unnatural fear of 'overused fantasy tropes'.

[Vissy]

Intelligence is much more than merely thinking about one thing, one time. Intelligence is what guides an entire being's gestures and thoughts. The fact Adolin didn't think of it does not make him less smart than Kaladin and the fact Kaladin thought of it does not make him smarter. Adolin might have thought the same thing, for all we know, and not voice a word because Adolin never attempts at being smart while Kaladin takes every opportunity he has to show others he is smart.

I much prefer to judge characters intelligence based on their actions. Adolin might not have asked the clever question this one time, but he's the one who registered the information and who aptly used it when required to win a decisive battle. I say that was quite smart and I say I find it smarter than having thinking about the question. Anyone can think of questions, anyone can speaks great words to appear smart, not everyone is able to use knowledge in a decisive manner in a high-stress situation.

Also, being mentally direct does not mean dumb, it just means Adolin speaks his mind without taking care to process his thoughts to make them appear smarter. A lot of people are behaving the same and a lot of those people also happen to be very smart: smart isn't just about how you voice your thoughts, it is also about what you do with them.

Intelligence might be that or it might be something else, we don't really have accurate definitions of intelligence. We don't really know what it is. But that doesn't matter at all when in the books Kaladin is implied to be smarter from the PoV of any character we see thinking about it-

Edited May 2, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[Lightflame]

Jasnah and Szeth. It sounds ridiculous, but I like it, for some reason. They'd have a lot to get over as well, which would mean a lot of character development to get to that point, though. Although that would make it more interesting.

[Radiant_Jaeger]

4 hours ago, Lightflame said:

Jasnah and Szeth. It sounds ridiculous, but I like it, for some reason. They'd have a lot to get over as well, which would mean a lot of character development to get to that point, though. Although that would make it more interesting.

I don't think so. The whole mass murderer thing might be too much of a dampener.

[Vissy]

For all we know, Jasnah is a mass murderer as well. In fact, it's more or less implied that she is...

[sandstorm179]

How so?

[maxal]

9 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

Intelligence might be that or it might be something else, we don't really have accurate definitions of intelligence. We don't really know what it is. But that doesn't matter at all when in the books Kaladin is implied to be smarter from the PoV of any character we see thinking about it-

While intelligence is a subjective matter, there are objective ways to measure it. The classical definition of intelligence would be: the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. If I am to follow this definition, Adolin has proven to be rather intelligent, at least as much as Kaladin as whatever knowledge he has, he tends to put it to good use. 

I will also ask which character POV are implying Kaladin is smarter than anyone else precisely? There are only a handful of third-person's perspective onto Kaladin and among them, only one speaks of his intelligence and it comes from Shallan who wonders about it. I will thus rephrase my thoughts in a more concise manner: Kaladin is smart, but readers are, on average, taking him for smarter than he truly is based on perception linked to how the character views himself. 

In shorts, Kaladin isn't a genius (neither are Shallan and Adolin) while it may be Jasnah is. I would personally place the younger trio somewhere within the above average, the difference in between not being overly significant: their interests, upbringings and personalities create more discrepancies than their raw intellectual capacities.

15 hours ago, SLNC said:

Well, apparently you and I are in the minority there. Only because of an unnatural fear of 'overused fantasy tropes'.

I fear you are reducing a lengthy multi-factorial discussion to only one argument. Reasons for some readers not to support the Kaladin/Shallan ship are numerous and while one of them is the sickening feeling they make up for an over-used (hence boring) trope, it hardly is only nor the major one.

I could write all the reasons not to support the Kaladin/Shallan ship, but I will instead try to briefly state why some of us just do not like the pairing.

In shorts, some of us merely do not enjoy the Kaladin/Shallan dynamic and/or their banter. Many hate the idea of pairing the major male lead with the major female lead as we fear it will center the narrative too strongly over these two characters (some of us already feel the story focuses too much on Kaladin and not enough on everyone else). Others do not find whichever hardships they will have to navigate through interesting as far as they can tell at this point in time within the story. Some do not want Kaladin to have a romantic partner because they either think he is not ready and/or not capable (which they think is unfair to Shallan) and/or they think his narrative is already thick as it is, this isn't required.

This being said, the one major reason why some of us dislike the Kaladin/Shallan pairing isn't just some "unnatural fear of over-used fantasy tropes" (this is one argument, not the sole one nor the major one), but a even simpler fact. Many just prefer the Adolin/Shallan dynamic. Some of us just like these two together, how they interact and whichever hardships they will have to navigate through strike them as much more interesting. Others feel Adolin/Shallan would make a stronger pair, in the long run, they think they are better balanced. Many love the idea of the nice kid succeeding in a relationship, for once. I feel this is needed for Adolin's character development and I love the power balanced shifting which is bond to happen.

 

 

 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

While intelligence is a subjective matter, there are objective ways to measure it. The classical definition of intelligence would be: the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills. If I am to follow this definition, Adolin has proven to be rather intelligent, at least as much as Kaladin as whatever knowledge he has, he tends to put it to good use. 

I will also ask which character POV are implying Kaladin is smarter than anyone else precisely? There are only a handful of third-person's perspective onto Kaladin and among them, only one speaks of his intelligence and it comes from Shallan who wonders about it. I will thus rephrase my thoughts in a more concise manner: Kaladin is smart, but readers are, on average, taking him for smarter than he truly is based on perception linked to how the character views himself. 

In shorts, Kaladin isn't a genius (neither are Shallan and Adolin) while it may be Jasnah is. I would personally place the younger trio somewhere within the above average, the difference in between not being overly significant: their interests, upbringings and personalities create more discrepancies than their raw intellectual capacities.

I fear you are reducing a lengthy multi-factorial discussion to only one argument. Reasons for some readers not to support the Kaladin/Shallan ship are numerous and while one of them is the sickening feeling they make up for an over-used (hence boring) trope, it hardly is only nor the major one.

I could write all the reasons not to support the Kaladin/Shallan ship, but I will instead try to briefly state why some of us just do not like the pairing.

In shorts, some of us merely do not enjoy the Kaladin/Shallan dynamic and/or their banter. Many hate the idea of pairing the major male lead with the major female lead as we fear it will center the narrative too strongly over these two characters (some of us already feel the story focuses too much on Kaladin and not enough on everyone else). Others do not find whichever hardships they will have to navigate through interesting as far as they can tell at this point in time within the story. Some do not want Kaladin to have a romantic partner because they either think he is not ready and/or not capable (which they think is unfair to Shallan) and/or they think his narrative is already thick as it is, this isn't required.

This being said, the one major reason why some of us dislike the Kaladin/Shallan pairing isn't just some "unnatural fear of over-used fantasy tropes" (this is one argument, not the sole one nor the major one), but a even simpler fact. Many just prefer the Adolin/Shallan dynamic. Some of us just like these two together, how they interact and whichever hardships they will have to navigate through strike them as much more interesting. Others feel Adolin/Shallan would make a stronger pair, in the long run, they think they are better balanced. Many love the idea of the nice kid succeeding in a relationship, for once. I feel this is needed for Adolin's character development and I love the power balanced shifting which is bond to happen.

 

 

 

Lol classic @maxal Factorial is my word of the day.

But I agree. Not liking Shalladan doesn't necessarily have to do with the "hero and lady" trope. I just don't think they fit. Shallan and Adolin fit well, especially now that they have even darker acts in common. I bet when Shallan tells Adolin about her father he will tell her about Sadeas and they'll be all the stronger for it.

[Vissy]

Not a very good definition of intelligence tbh. Completely omits creativity, for example.

You were just quoted on the page back Shallan PoV where she regarded Kaladin as smarter than Adolin. i guess you can interpret that differently its your right, but any conventional reading of it makes it clear what she thinks about who is smarter

it's not like i care what ship happens anyway. i hope all of them happen. more drama is better for me

Edited May 2, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[maxal]

56 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

Not a very good definition of intelligence tbh. Completely omits creativity, for example.

It is the definition I found in Google, not something I made up. Here are other definitions:

Merriam-Webster

the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations :  reason; also :  the skilled use of reason (2) :  the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (such as tests)

Oxford dictionary

The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

We might argue as to whether of not a given character is intelligent, but the approved definition of intelligence is the ability to both collect and use knowledge. Obviously, it can be applied to several areas: the distinction in between emotional and intellectual intelligence being often mentioned. Creativity is not omitted, it is one agreed upon synonym for intelligence and, within the discussion at hand, would more aptly apply to Adolin than Kaladin. Kaladin isn't creative nor does he have any inclinations towards it, not that we could observe within the books which doesn't mean he isn't smart, it just means he isn't creatively oriented. A lot of very smart individual aren't overly creative, but then again it is a very lose term which can be used to various areas as well. Engineers are creative, but not necessarily artistically so. Surgeons could also get to be creative in their techniques to heal a patient, but it isn't the same kind of creativity you would find in other profession. 

2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

You were just quoted on the page back Shallan PoV where she regarded Kaladin as smarter than Adolin. i guess you can interpret that differently its your right, but any conventional reading of it makes it clear what she thinks about who is smarter

In your previous post, you said:

 But that doesn't matter at all when in the books Kaladin is implied to be smarter from the PoV of any character we see thinking about it-

While not technically inaccurate, this statement implies more than one character has reflected upon Kaladin's intelligence when in fact it was only Shallan, this one time, unless I missed one, hence my question.

I am well aware of the passage as it has been abundantly quoted within most shipping discussions of the past three years. I have also answered to it within a previous post. This passage indicates Shallan's perception based onto one element: the ability to sugarcoat ones thoughts and/or the ability to appear smart. In other words, appearing intelligent does not make one smarter and one way to appear smart is to talk with confidence, with conviction. Self-assured individuals convinced in their own mental capacities can talk garbage and yet be perceived as very intelligent: it is often highlighted as one major difference in between men and women within work environment. Women aren't dumber, they are just as smart if not smarter, but they tend to downplay it, to not advertise it as strongly as men and will usually be less prompt to draft hasty conclusions which might make one sound smart despite being totally wrong. All this to say, Kaladin's high level of self-confidence within his own smarts will always make him sound smarter than Adolin whom delves more onto the low self-confidence side with his own mental capacities. In other words, Kaladin thinking himself very smart will always sound smarter than Adolin thinking himself an idiot.

I would also highlight how Shallan says Adolin is mentally direct and/or blunt and seems off putted by it. Right here and there, I would state being mentally direct is not a sign is lesser intelligence: it is a sign of pragmatism. Adolin is a down-to-Earth guy who state things as he sees them without caring to sugarcoat them to make them sound smarter. He won't try to twist a word just to appear smart, worst he doesn't even try to appear smart, which does not mean he isn't. A lot of very smart individuals have similar behavior: engineers for instance tend to be downright pragmatic and say things more bluntly than say a politician, but they aren't dumber for it.

My point is thus, when attempting to evaluate book character's intelligence, we have to rely on their actions and not on another character's perception which can often be biased. Shallan right here and there is biased because she loves to play with word, she thinks herself very clever for it (Brandon also stated she wasn't as clever as she thought she was) and hence is more likely to think a man having similar tendencies to be smarter than one not being inclined towards them. So when we go back down to the actual definition of "intelligence", we are left with people being able to acquire knowledge and aptly use it with skill: Adolin does that. Quite often. Which isn't to say Kaladin doesn't do it either, he does, but he doesn't outshine anyone here. 

Sorry for the lengthy response 

2 hours ago, Radiant_Jaeger said:

Lol classic @maxal Factorial is my word of the day.

But I agree. Not liking Shalladan doesn't necessarily have to do with the "hero and lady" trope. I just don't think they fit. Shallan and Adolin fit well, especially now that they have even darker acts in common. I bet when Shallan tells Adolin about her father he will tell her about Sadeas and they'll be all the stronger for it.

It was the appropriate word to drop into the conversation to make myself appear smarter hence hoping others would buy my argumentation more readily 

[Andy92]

Am I the only one who feels like none of the main characters in this series are really well suited to be in successful relationships? 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

@maxal And you lost me with argumentation 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Radiant_Jaeger

[+Wax]

Argumentation... lol.  Guys I am sure it can  all be sorted very with more brevity and plain speaking!

[Vissy]

The definition of intelligence is a big problem in any field of science related to studying it. Our conception of it is really just really, really poor. It's that vague thing that means something like 'how good you are at doing stuff'.

[dionysus]

I am with Maxal. I think Kaladin is smart but you have to get Adolin credit. He clearly has the makings of a great field general. Dalinar is moving on to focus on politics and overall strategy, and he is letting Adolin win the battles....and Adolin is. Moreover, it has been shown he can also grasp political issues and swing the outcome his father's way in a unique way. It backfired a bit at the end, but the way he obtains shards for his father shows he is capable of analyzing the personalities of others and frankly being very manipulative with that knowledge. Even with the backfire, I don't hold that against Adolin. First, no one saw it coming. Second, the manipulation of the rules of the duel was legally brilliant but definitely dishonorable. It is very outside the character of an Alethi lighteyes male to use such trickery, or so the Kholin's believe. Ultimately, I think it was a good lesson, one I think maybe Dalinar hasn't learned but Adolin has, that Alethi honor is a facade for most of the people in power that they use to protect themselves from consequences. I say Adolin learned the lesson because he fights fire with fire. He recognizes that Sadeas cannot be dealt with honorably like Dalinar keeps doing, and so Adolin acts outside of honor to take care of the problem.

For Kaladin, his intelligence manifests in other ways. He obviously has a natural gift for medicine. But being good at a profession doesn't mean you are intelligent in other ways. The other ways I see Kaladin's intelligence manifest is how observant he is, and how he applies his observations to draw conclusions. He is definitely observant of the natural world. For example, he figures out the ecology and behavior of the chasms and applies that knowledge to help out the Bridgemen. As an aside, I think this is the biggest common ground he has with Shallan. They both study the natural world around them: Shallan as a scholar and Kaladin for more practical reasons. Another example is how Kaladin deduces the overall reasoning behind Sadeas's use of bridgemen, while being a the lowest of the low bridgeman himself. Kaladin is in a brutal environment where just surviving for 30 days is almost impoosible, yet over time he is able to grasp thebig picture. Dalinar himself never sees the full implication of Sadeas's strategy. Dalinar thinks that Sadeas wants to be fast to gemhearts and doesn't care about the cost. That is part of it for sure. But Kaladin is the one who deduces that Sadeas actually is completely considering the costs. The bridgemen also serve as irresistible battle distractions for the warform parshendi, preserving the more expensively trained and equipped regular troops. The cruelty has several layers of purpose. He also comes up with ways to better advance what he sees as Sadeas's strategy. If my memory is correct at first he comes up with ways to keep his bridge alive but that makes them less of a target, but then he is punished for that and revises his understanding of the broad strategy and he devises ways to make his team even more of a target.

A flaw of Kaladin's is his arrogance about his intelligence. He just doesn't think he can ever be wrong and others might be right, and he shows it in his interaction and his internal monologue. A flaw and strength of Adolin's is that he hides his intelligence behind a facade of more base motivations. It is a strength because his enemies underestimate him; it is a flaw because his family and friends also underestimate him. He needs to learn to take off the mask for those he trusts.

Edited May 3, 2017 by dionysus