Odium/Autonomy Connection, and the Red Mist

[The One Who Connects]

This is a continuation of a discussion from this thread, as it got too far off the original topic.

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2 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Very good point about hit trying to take on Honour and Cultivation on his own, but I suppose it's possible he just went after one of them alone before the other joined in the fray. I don't know if we're explicitly told that Honour and Cultivation arrived at the same time, one of them could have stepped in to help the other against Odium. Not saying that I think that's what happened, jut one possibility I thought of while reading your response. 

Source

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Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

But then there is also this, which implies that he somehow could take them both on himself, at least for a little while.

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"If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?"

Brandon Sanderson

"She did."

---

15 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Do you have a confirmation that Odium was specifically targeting planets with two Shards? I hadn't seen that before, but your reasoning makes sense, if he was trying to prevent them from combining. Also a little ironic that, in splintering Devotion and Dominion, he did combine them (though admittedly in a way that's harmless to him).

I am having difficulty finding it, but I swear that I read it somewhere. Give me a little while longer, and I may find it.

17 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

I just don't think a small, unsubstantial piece of Ruin could be a very big threat to someone who carries two Shards. That, and the fact that the kandra don't recognize the metal, which means it's not Atium and it's probably not ettmetal.

This was back when the idea was that the haze was a representation of Harmony keeping something out, not that it was what he was keeping out. The piece of Ruin was the extra power bringing Harmony out of Balance since Preservation put more of his energy into humanity. Sazed needed a use for that destructive power to keep himself in harmony, so it was a logical idea to use it as defense against incursion. I didn't mean to imply that the piece of Ruin was the bad guy, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

23 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Also, if Odium does ditch Roshar, it wouldn't be the first time he's done something similar. Recall that he initially clashed with and wounded Ambition, then left to kill Devotion and Dominion, then went back to finish the job. He already Splintered Honour, and that got him stuck on Braize for 4500 years. Maybe it's time for a regroup with his only ally.

Honor was splintered moderately late into that 4500 year timeframe, if we include the time before the desolations stopped and the 2-2.5 millennia until the Recreance. Also, per Brandon, he "went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion."

Let's continue. Anyone else, feel free to join in.

[Khyrindor]

Some relevant WoBs I found. I also remember asking Brandon on Twitter if Odium and Devotion were opposites and he said "they could be considered as such," but alas, I can't find it.

 

 

 

#1: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Scroll to number 47

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QUESTION

Could - would - Odium ever work with another Shard?

BRANDON SANDERSON

If he were in charge. This is within the realm of possibility. In fact, that may have happened at various points. (I swear I can hear his sly smile…

#2: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Number 49

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SEONID

"If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"She did."

#3: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Number 50

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QUESTION

Is there any connection between Odium and Trell?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Brandon hems and haws for a moment.] Um…yes, there is some connection. That’s a question where if you understood it then great, if you didn’t then don’t worry.

#4: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Number 64

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MORIDIN997

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

#5: Because we were talking about this one. Number 68

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ARGENT

I want to take us back to some Shards before we skip me for the fourth time. So there were a few of the Shards that Rayse Splintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

ARGENT

And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

ARGENT

So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

BRANDON SANDERSON

He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

ARGENT

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

ARGENT

Which is segue to Shards Investing in Shardworlds. So is it kind of a...passive...the more a Shard stays on a world, the Investiture kind of seeps...

#6: Number 69

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QUESTION

Did Ambition fight back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

And...Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got [Splintered] Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon: Heheheheh. I would say yes.

QUESTION

And Cultivation, is she--

BRANDON SANDERSON

She is still there. Alive and kicking.

QUESTION

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, maybe. She has learned from the experiences of others.

 

From these (all taken from the tag 'Odium' in theoryland), we can see that;

1. Odium has probably worked with another Shard in the past.

2. Autonomy "in some way" (which I admit is ambiguous) helped Odium splinter Devotion and Dominion.

3. There's some connection between Odium ad Trell (which could be that they are both in the Cosmere, Brandon has said that ambiguous questions like this leave him a lot of wiggle room).

I concede on the fact that Honour and Cultivation arrived together, WoB is proof. That WoB that we can't find about Odium Splintering pairs of Shards that you mentioned doesn't run counter to my point that Odium and Autonomy may be working together on Sel, because even if he's doing that, it fits with his MO of attacking multiple Shards. I don't know the reason why Odium thought he could do H&C by himself, but he was clearly wrong. He could have learned from his mistake before going after Harmony (on the Odium tag, you'll also see a few "Odium is aware of and very scared of Harmony" WoBs as well; why would he go up against someone he's afraid of alone?

Thanks for clearing up the timeline issue of WoK history there. Odium was still stuck there before he could prevent Harmony from happening though.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Khyrindor
Accidentally hid response to WoBs in the spoiler as well.

[cometaryorbit]

I think Odium was already trapped when he splintered Honor.

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Rayse is captive. He cannot leave the system he now inhabits. His destructive potential is, therefore, inhibited.

-Words of Radiance, Ch. 69 Epigraph

So he seems to be imprisoned in the Greater Roshar system, not just the planet of Braize, so affecting stuff on Roshar (like Honor) is presumably possible. His influence is probably stronger / more constant on Braize because he's actually Invested there.

[GoufCustom]

I gotta say, I never have liked the idea of Autonomy teaming up with Odium. The simple fact is that Shardic Intent should reject the idea of a team up, even more so the idea of being the subservient one in a partnership, as WoB indicates is the only way Odium would agree. I find it strange enough that Autonomy would make it a habit to interfere with other Shards in the first place.

Unless... perhaps there exists some entity (likely another Shard) that has discovered a way to corrupt Shards?

[Spoolofwhool]

The WoB that Bavadin helped Odium against Devotion a day Dominion really shouldn't be taken to mean anything. The questioner allowed it to become too open-ended and Brandon took full advantage of that. All that it really tells us is that, through action or inaction, Bavadin allowed at least one event to occur which profited Odium. This could range from as serious as being on site and directly killing Skai, to as simple as not going to Sel to interfere.

[Yata]

If I don't remember wrong the "Odium targeted only the multiple Shards planets" is just a Virtuous Traveler's theory

[Jofwu]

17 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

2. Autonomy "in some way" (which I admit is ambiguous) helped Odium splinter Devotion and Dominion.

To emphasize what Spool was saying, I think the question was more accurately something like:

Q: "Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?"
Brandon: "Uhh......" (about to RAFO)
Q: "In ANY way?"
Brandon: "Sure."

10 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think Odium was already trapped when he splintered Honor.

My interpretation is that Honor died while trapping Odium. Like maybe he locked the two of them in a "room" that Cultivation has the key to, hoping to be victorious but not sure he would be.

[Blightsong]

57 minutes ago, jofwu said:

My interpretation is that Honor died while trapping Odium. Like maybe he locked the two of them in a "room" that Cultivation has the key to, hoping to be victorious but not sure he would be.

We know that Honor was still alive long after the Final Desolation, and Odium was presumably trapped when the desolations began, so it makes much more sense that Honor did not die while trapping Odium.

[Jofwu]

1 minute ago, Blightsong said:

We know that Honor was still alive long after the Final Desolation, and Odium was presumably trapped when the desolations began, so it makes much more sense that Honor did not die while trapping Odium.

Huh, never put that together. It makes a lot of sense in some ways, but it also seems very odd to me. If Odium is trapped then why was Honor hanging out in striking distance? You don't catch a bear in a pit and then hop down into the pit yourself. You might argue that he had a role to play in keeping Odium trapped. But in that case, with Honor having been dead for some time now, I would expect Odium to already be free.

Something doesn't fit right in all that...

[Spoolofwhool]

16 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Huh, never put that together. It makes a lot of sense in some ways, but it also seems very odd to me. If Odium is trapped then why was Honor hanging out in striking distance? You don't catch a bear in a pit and then hop down into the pit yourself. You might argue that he had a role to play in keeping Odium trapped. But in that case, with Honor having been dead for some time now, I would expect Odium to already be free.

Something doesn't fit right in all that...

My theory is that the prison which is binding Odium is just the fact that's he's invested into the Greater Roshar System, caused by the Oathpact. Because Honor is in the system as well, he's automatically within striking range. The only to get out of range would've been to leave the system, which he wouldn't do. Reason being is that this would hugely weaken him, for the same reason why Odium can't leave, and because if he did leave, Odium would've been a lot more free to unravel the Oathpact and escape.

Also, I'm of the opinion that catching Odium wasn't intentional. He just got snared by certain mechanisms Honor had put in place for other reasons. So it's not a matter of hopping into the pit, it's more a matter of being in the pit when a bear suddenly charges in to get you only to realize it's now stuck. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Jofwu]

10 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My theory is that the prison which is binding Odium is just the fact that's he's invested into the Greater Roshar System, caused by the Oathpact.

I really like this, though it begs another question. Why would Honor pin Odium down (via the Oathpact?) like this? Wouldn't he rather fend Odium off? If someone comes to murder you, why would you lock him in your house?

Best explanation I can think of is that he expected to win, and was afraid Odium would try to run.

Edited February 10, 2017 by jofwu

[Pagerunner]

2 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I really like this, though it begs another question. Why would Honor pin Odium down (via the Oathpact?) like this? Wouldn't he rather fend Odium off? If someone comes to murder you, why would you lock him in your house?

Makes you wonder of Honor and Cultivation were victims, or if they laid a trap for Odium, and went all Home Alone on him.

[Spoolofwhool]

42 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I really like this, though it begs another question. Why would Honor pin Odium down (via the Oathpact?) like this? Wouldn't he rather fend Odium off? If someone comes to murder you, why would you lock him in your house?

Best explanation I can think of is that he expected to win, and was afraid Odium would try to run.

As I said, it was unintentional. I don't think the Oathpact was made in response to Odium's arrival. It's more a matter of chilling in your house with doors which only open from the outside and a thief comes in. The doors were set this way for unrelated reasons.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

So he seems to be imprisoned in the Greater Roshar system, not just the planet of Braize, so affecting stuff on Roshar (like Honor) is presumably possible. His influence is probably stronger / more constant on Braize because he's actually Invested there.

He is on Braize, but he can affect all 3 planets.

3 hours ago, Yata said:

If I don't remember wrong the "Odium targeted only the multiple Shards planets" is just a Virtuous Traveler's theory

Was it? Well that's unfortunate for the discussion. I'll go have a look for this theory then.

41 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

As I said, it was unintentional. I don't think the Oathpact was made in response to Odium's arrival. It's more a matter of chilling in your house with doors which only open from the outside and a thief comes in. The doors were set this way for unrelated reasons.

I like this metaphor, and am curious if you believe that this WoB can work with your metaphor. If the Oathpact is doors that only open from outside, I feel that leans a bit toward his inability to leave being a "direct result" of that.

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Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

[Spoolofwhool]

19 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I like this metaphor, and am curious if you believe that this WoB can work with your metaphor. If the Oathpact is doors that only open from outside, I feel that leans a bit toward his inability to leave being a "direct result" of that.

In this metaphor, the Oathpact is what is causing the doors to only open inwards. The actual doors are him investing into the system. They're stopping him from leaving, but the Oathpact is indirectly doing so by not letting him open them.

Edit: I've extended the metaphor to a full one explaining my opinion on the Stormlight Archives. If anyone is interested, I'll drop it later.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Yata]

14 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Was it? Well that's unfortunate for the discussion. I'll go have a look for this theory then.

It was a Theory spawned by my theory of "Dor is a new Double Shard but Splintered", Virtuous Traveler started from there and pushed the Dor's birth as "An attempt of Aona and Skai to merge their shards as a result of their love", in this context...Odium rushed on Sel because the Dor would be a being capable of greater power than him.

[Khyrindor]

We do know by WoB that Odium seeks to be the last Shard standing. It would make sense for him to target planets with dual Shards, but I doubt that's what he did, especially since he went after Ambition first. He wanted Ambition first because he thought that would be the one that would best rival him, while others he went after, he did because of the vessel (at least, it's likely, I remember WoBs that suggest that). 

Again I think he went after D&D because his Opposite Shard (Devotion, in theory) was there, and would be a good candidate to neutralize him. Also, Dominion sounds like another Shard with power that would be able to hurt him.

In my mind, it's a coincidence that some of the planets Odium targeted had two Shards, but if that ends up being true, it doesn't hurt my theory that he and Autonomy are going after Harmony.

[AerionBFII]

I always thought the Oathpact was a last ditch effort by Honor to bind or halt Odium, he new he couldn't win so he sought to lock him up. It works like a war game, wave after wave of invasions being fended off until Honor was finally Splintered. I also agree that from the start Ambition was Odiums first target, he saw that particular Shard as his greatest rival. D&D were targets of opportunity while he sought Ambition.

 

On a side note i always took this WOB with a pinch of salt. Autonomy could have indirectly helped by being manipulated by Odium.

Q: "Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?"
Brandon: "Uhh......" (about to RAFO)
Q: "In ANY way?"
Brandon: "Sure."

[Spoolofwhool]

14 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

I always thought the Oathpact was a last ditch effort by Honor to bind or halt Odium, he new he couldn't win so he sought to lock him up. It works like a war game, wave after wave of invasions being fended off until Honor was finally Splintered. I also agree that from the start Ambition was Odiums first target, he saw that particular Shard as his greatest rival. D&D were targets of opportunity while he sought Ambition.

It's a fair thought. We really lack a lot of information to make a definitive answer. The only thing we can be sure of is that the Oathpact is indirectly binding Odium, but that leaves a lot of ways it could do something.

[AerionBFII]

3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It's a fair thought. We really lack a lot of information to make a definitive answer. The only thing we can be sure of is that the Oathpact is indirectly binding Odium, but that leaves a lot of ways it could do something.

Yes!! Nothing great just sending out probes so to speak haha 

[Khyrindor]

So, I made a realization about Shards, and I remember this being discussed or WoB'd a while back. I'll try to find it after I post.

Shards don't apply their own Intent to themselves.

Preservation was very bad at Preserving himself, because he was busy protecting the world from Ruin. Ruin also didn't seek to Ruin himself, rather than the world. Endowment doesn't give herself anything, she gives it to her people. Odium doesn't hate himself, he hates everything else. I could go on with the other Shards, but the evidence stands. I don't think we should be surprised when we see Autonomy being subservient, as long as it means that he is freeing people from others' control (which, as Trell, she's doing, by the way). 

On the WoB I linked about Autonomy helping Odium on Sel, you're all very eager to say the questioner gave a lot of wiggle room, and I agree. But wiggle room goes both ways. Brandon could be saying "Well, sure. Autonomy helped by giving Odium directions." Or, he could be saying "Well, this questioner's really close to the answer, but since he gave me an ambiguous question I'll give him an ambiguous answer."

I agree we should take it with a grain of salt, but the fact is that Autonomy did help in some way. I should think that Autonomy would like to have a chance to Splinter her opposite, just as Odium would. 

[Fezzik]

Devotion is not necessarily Odium's opposite: WoB

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Odium%2C+opposite

Autonomy is Trell is just a theory, good cases can be made for dominion or ambition

[Khyrindor]

59 minutes ago, john203 said:

Devotion is not necessarily Odium's opposite: WoB

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=Odium%2C+opposite

Autonomy is Trell is just a theory, good cases can be made for dominion or ambition

I can't find the proof any more, but I asked Brandon if Devotion and Odium were opposites during a Twitter thing last year, and he said "they could be considered as such."

I think it's likely, based on that, but also based on the fact that Devotion includes things like Love, and Odium includes things like Hate, which are clear opposites. But, I agree we don't have very much hard evidence. The scenario on Sel seems likely, and seems to point to Devotion being the opposite, however.

Both Dominion and Ambition are Splintered, Dominion is very stuck, permeating the Cognitive Realm of Sel, and nearly inseparable from Devotion, so I think it's highly unlikely that either of them are the culprit.

Also, We have a WoB that says that Trell is involved with a Shard we know, and it's from before we knew about Ambition.

[The One Who Connects]

13 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

I agree we should take it with a grain of salt, but the fact is that Autonomy did help in some way. I should think that Autonomy would like to have a chance to Splinter her opposite, just as Odium would.

While I can accept that line of logic, I can interpret Dominion in a way that Autonomy would, for the most part, approve of. In fact, a whole lot of the community has believed something quite close to this line of logic at one time or another. We've used the second definition of Dominion: "the territory of a sovereign or government" as a reasoning for why the magic systems are so region-centric. As why the regions and magic systems function as their own little semi-autonomous groups.

While this may not be the exact reason for the region locked magics, is it not believable that Dominion as a whole could be construed in such a mindset? Something similar to the Alethi feudal system, but altered. A city is the Citylord's dominion, the province is the Provincial Lord's dominion, etc on up until everything is Dominion's .. dominion (sigh)
Oh great, now I want to compile proper logic for combining any of the shards... all because that "he might not have been 'harmony" WoB...

[Moridin997]

On 20/02/2017 at 4:47 AM, Khyrindor said:

On the WoB I linked about Autonomy helping Odium on Sel, you're all very eager to say the questioner gave a lot of wiggle room, and I agree. But wiggle room goes both ways. Brandon could be saying "Well, sure. Autonomy helped by giving Odium directions." Or, he could be saying "Well, this questioner's really close to the answer, but since he gave me an ambiguous question I'll give him an ambiguous answer."

I agree we should take it with a grain of salt, but the fact is that Autonomy did help in some way. I should think that Autonomy would like to have a chance to Splinter her opposite, just as Odium would. 

 

As the questioner of that WoB, all I can say is that even giving Brandon a lot of wiggle room, he felt very tempted to RAFO me. So I'd rather take an ambiguous confirmation that Autonomy helped Odium on Sel than get RAFOed and get no confirmation at all... In a way, his hesitation was more confirmation to me than the actual answer...