Koldun

Preservation and Sixteen

93 posts in this topic

46 minutes ago, Hawkido said:
19 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

Again, Haemalurgy can be considered as either 1 or 16 powers. If you say that Haemalurgy is only one power then that means that Allomancy is also only one power. You need to compare like with like.

Again, why would they be categorized the same. When none of them are.

This can be 16:16, if the Hemalurgy is limited to metals only. But it can also be that 16 metal powers are from Preservation, and for each metal there is one corresponding from Ruin. The difference could be (in theory) that Hemalurgy is not only limited to metals

from http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/?_fromLogin=1

 

Quote

Q:  In the different worlds, can you spike people Hemalurgically with materials other than metal? Say, you create a wood spike for Breath, or a gem spike for surges?
A:  RAFO

So it's a possibility, then Ruin's Hemalurgy would have one power to correspond one from other shards power, so 16 for 16 of preservation. In my theory Ten Essences are relation beetwen Hemalurgy and surgebinding - a gemstone possibly being material for spike, a Herald related directing to order and powers, and body focus like Inhalation or Exhalation ( nose, mouth or maybe lungs), it would then make one possible spike for each of Honors powers. This would make Ruin have 1 to correspond any other shard power.

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15 minutes ago, Mati said:

This can be 16:16, if the Hemalurgy is limited to metals only. But it can also be that 16 metal powers are from Preservation, and for each metal there is one corresponding from Ruin. The difference could be (in theory) that Hemalurgy is not only limited to metals

from http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/?_fromLogin=1

Yes, 1*X  what ever ruin is up against he can hijack in order to inflict ruin.

Quote

Q:  In the different worlds, can you spike people Hemalurgically with materials other than metal? Say, you create a wood spike for Breath, or a gem spike for surges?
A:  RAFO

Thanks for finding this quote, I couldn't remember it enough to find it again.  While not conclusive it does not exclude my guess and does not break my theory, might even play exactly into it.

18 minutes ago, Mati said:

So it's a possibility, then Ruin's Hemalurgy would have one power to correspond one from other shards power, so 16 for 16 of preservation. In my theory Ten Essences are relation beetwen Hemalurgy and surgebinding - a gemstone possibly being material for spike, a Herald related directing to order and powers, and body focus like Inhalation or Exhalation ( nose, mouth or maybe lungs), it would then make one possible spike for each of Honors powers. This would make Ruin have 1 to correspond any other shard power.

Currently we have only seen one being that used foreign spikes on Scandrial, Each were made for her, where are the other spikes she used? perhaps she had a minion collecting and placing them near her for easy swapping/retrieval.  We don't have clear confirmation as to which shard provided the material/intent for these spikes but autonomy seems to be most likely, but others believe that each shard has a unique color associated with them, and the red mist and red discoloration on the spikes places Odium and Ambition at odds if that is the case.  Unless the red discoloration was for Odium and the other metallic color was of Ambition, then the aluded-to coalition between Autonomy and Odium and the unique shard color coordination would match up.  I wish we had more information about Autonomy as I would have picked Autonomy's shard number to be 1 as individuality and 1 are symbolic, but it seems Autonomy has more than one purpose, so the symbology there has to be deeper than just surface meaning.  

Another thought on Ruin and Hemalurgy, Ruin cannot control someone who is in the act of destroying,  It goes against his very nature to stop those who destroy.  Marsh exploited this.  This would mean that Sazed cannot stop someone who uses Hemalurgy to destroy.  Interesting.

 

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22 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I count Roshar's magics as 30 as that is what is quoted.

There are only 16 viable allomantic metals, (again excluding godmetals) You cannot perform any of the magics of Scandrial without them.  On Roshar without one of the 30 bindings you cannot perform any of those magics, regardless of stormlight.

This here highlights the issue.

On Scadrial, you cannot perform any power without one of these 16 metals, so thus 16 powers. Some people see it differently, but this is feasible argument nonetheless.

On Roshar, you cannot perform any power without one of the ten fundamental forces, or "Surges." It is not 30 different bindings, but 30 different ways to build upon those fundamental forces. This number will remain at 10 until such point as we see whether or not Voidbinding and/or Cultivation's magic system use something different.

It is similar to Aons, in that there all all sorts of powers, but they are all patterned off of 1 Base Aon. On Roshar, there are 10 Base Surges. Scadrial has 16 Base Metals.

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On 2/28/2017 at 7:16 PM, Hawkido said:

Well see that is the problem, I am not trying to examine things that are alike.  I am counting Oranges on one planet and Apples on another. The powers are presented differently, used and passed on differently, and have completely different rules and laws.  Why would they be categorized the same?  I categorize my paints by hues and pigments, and my nuts and bolts by size and thread.  Why would i try to categorize my paints by size and thread?

Again, why would they be categorized the same. When none of them are.

The strange part about your response here is that, whilst you claim that the different magic systems all have different rules that need not be consistent with one another, you seem convinced that each system has its own unique number associated with it. You seem to be striving for consistency, whilst at the same time decrying the need for it.

Nevertheless, I felt that it was in a sense, very illuminating. It very neatly demonstrates why we seem to be disagreeing on so much: we don't seem to agree on the very fundamentals. The way I read this, your argument seems to be predicated on the following propositions:

  1. The various magic systems of the Cosmere are unrelated to each other.
  2. Each magic system in the Cosmere has a specific, distinct, and objectively correct classification schema associated with it.

If I understand you correctly, then that would mean that you also disagree with @The One Who Connects' response, since that is inconsistent with the above propositions.

On the first point, Brandon has said before that the magics of the Cosmere follow the same unified rules, therefore they can all be considered to be different aspects of the same magic system. Hence why I feel that we need to approach the various magics using the same logic: they are all following the same principles, even if it is not readily apparent.

And on the second point, let's start with the assumption that there is a single correct way of classifying each of the magics. You seem pretty adamant that there must be 30 magic systems on Roshar because that's what Brandon said that there were (which indeed he did). The problem then arises is that he has categorised them differently as well: sometimes he says that there are 30 magic systems, other times three magic systems. Sometimes he classifies the Old Magic as a  magic system, sometimes he says that it isn't a magic system.

This can be extended to other worlds' magic systems as well, with him saying that Allomancy could be classed as its own system, or each misting power could be classed as its own system. He's even said that all 3 Metallic Arts could be considered the same system. In short, therefore, it can't be true to say that there is only one correct way to classify each magic system

I'm putting relevant WoBs in the spoiler box to save space.

Spoiler
Quote

QURTYS LYN ()

With all these complex magic systems in your books, do you have all the rules for them written down somewhere? Also, as the worlds are all in the same universe, are the magic systems related in any way to each other, or completely independent from each other?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I have them all written down. Currently, I use a wiki—find it [here](http://wikidpad.sourceforge.net/—to keep track of all of it.

The magic systems in cosmere books all conform to a few underlying rules. This came from my interest in physics, and its search for a 'unifying' theory. (Fascinating reading, if you haven't studied this.)

In my books, there is a unifying theory of magic, so to speak.

source

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RAGS

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Fabrials are part of it.
Quote

QUESTION

How many magic systems are in The Stormlight Archive, and how many of them [have been seen?]

BRANDON SANDERSON

I would see the only major one you haven’t seen is Voidbinding, it depends on how you count them. I count fabrials as one, Surgebinding as one, and Voidbinding as one. And then the Old Magic is kind of its own weird thing.

source

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RHANDRIC

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or are they all the same one?

RHANDRIC

If you assume the surges are all one.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

RHANDRIC

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

RHANDRIC

That's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...] Is there an active magic system on Threnody?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science.

source

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Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?

Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel--much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same.

source

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BENFOLEY

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemurology) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. For comparison, how many magic systems would you say the Wheel of Time series has? Two (One Power and the True Power)? How do you classify other abilities (not necessarily related to the One Power or True Power) such as Dreamwalking, viewing the Pattern, Wolfbrother-hoodness, and changing 'luck' or chance? Would you classify these abilities as a magic system in and of themselves? Has your chance to see the background material Robert Jordan left changed how you view these abilities?

BRANDON SANDERSON

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

Anyway, I'd say that the Wheel of Time has a fair number of Magic systems. The biggest one would be the One Power/True Power, which is more of a blanket "Large" magic system kind of like Allomancy being a blanket for sixteen powers—only the WoT magic system is far larger. I'd count what Perrin/Egwene do in Tel'aran'rhiod as a different magic system. What Mat does as something else, the Talents one can have with the Power something else. Though I'd group all of the Foretelling/Viewing powers into one.

Sounds like a topic for a paper, actually. Any of you academics out there feel like writing one?

Let's just say that The Wheel of Time has a smaller number of larger magic systems, and I tend to use a larger number of smaller magic systems. Confusing enough? ;)

source

 

 

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6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

The strange part about your response here is that, whilst you claim that the different magic systems all have different rules that need not be consistent with one another, you seem convinced that each system has its own unique number associated with it.

My response to this is: YES, that is pretty much exactly what I am saying, but don't take it much, if any further than that.

Adonalsium was a Pie of all flavors.  When s/he was sliced up there were 16 slices, each of a different flavor, color, size.  The First Slice was 1X big, the second slice was 2X big, ... , The 16th slice was 16X big.  The size does not indicate Volume or mass, but rather another quality (I could have said purposes, but it wouldn't fit the pie analogy), just as any fraction of infinity is still infinite, no one slice is more or less powerful than another.  the shards seem to have specific numbers associated to them, we have enough info on enough shards to begin seeing a pattern,  This may be a false supposition, but every supposition that is never so posed will always be false.  If you never take a guess you will ALWAYS be wrong.  I don't see anyone else talking about this type of quality of the shards.  That is why I wanted to see how many other people might have noticed what I did.  And if they did, then they might point out other things along this line that I might have missed.  This has no bearing on what planet they land on.  This is an attempt to determine what the intermingling rules are for shardic powers.

I didn't really want to get into any of this type of discussion on these boards because this theory is still baking... All I wanted to do was say hey I started noticing this number thing, has anyone else seen this and maybe spotted other things that I don't have on my list?  I never expected so much flak, for posting a simple number theory on a theory board.  If I could delete the whole thing I would.

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:
  • The various magic systems of the Cosmere are unrelated to each other.
  • Each magic system in the Cosmere has a specific, distinct, and objectively correct classification schema associated with it.

My response to this is: NO and only the first half YES.

1. I have 2 brothers that I share nothing in common with.  We are still related.  We just were not all born at the exact same time, that would have been very traumatic probably to both of my parents, and probably to each of us boys as well.  

2. Each magic system in the Cosmere has a specific distinct Ordinal and Cardinal number.  The 16th shard has 16 attributes (I haven't heard Preservation refer to them as purposes as other shards have)  the 10th shard has 10 purposes, the 1st shard has one purpose.  The connection I am seeing is that the 16th shard has a base16 magic system, the 10th shard has a base10 magic system, the first shard only has a one function magic system.  It so far seems the 5th shard can only create 5 forms of life if you count humans as one, and as each human is born with a Breath on Nalthis I believe you have to count that, right along with the other 4 forms of Breath-Created life.

If Honor and Endowment were on a planet you would have either a 15 or 50 power magic system, depending on whether Brandon went additive or multiplicative (he might go subtractive in the future, for reasons below).  I think he tends to go additive when the shardic numbers are high as creating and making a 240 magic power system on one planet just because shard 15 and 16 showed up on one planet would be VERRY difficult.  We may see squares of powers on a planet with 2 low number shards just to give a more diverse magic system if that ever occurs in the series, and on Roshar I think it has been stated that Void Binding will be very similar to Surge Binding, mostly because there are just so many powers and making them all be interesting AND wildly different would be super duper hard.

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

If I understand you correctly, then that would mean that you also disagree with @The One Who Connects' response, since that is inconsistent with the above propositions.

Actually, I agree with @The One Who Connects, I didn't read his comment as a refutation, nor did I read it as a subscription to my cause, It just sounded to me like he saw what I was saying and tried to say it better.  I actually thought he kinda nailed it quite eloquently ("nailed it quite eloquently", such an eloquent statement).

 

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

On the first point, Brandon has said before that the magics of the Cosmere follow the same unified rules

No he didn't.

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

The magic systems in cosmere books all conform to a few underlying rules

That is what he said.  One of those rules might be shard numbers.  He did not elaborate, but neither did he say "Hawkido is just dumb."

 

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

You seem pretty adamant that there must be 30 magic systems on Roshar because that's what Brandon said that there were (which indeed he did). The problem then arises is that he has categorised them differently as well: sometimes he says that there are 30 magic systems, other times three magic systems. Sometimes he classifies the Old Magic as a  magic system, sometimes he says that it isn't a magic system.

If the 30 magic systems include Odium I stated that it would probably be shards 9, 10, and 11.  I also said if Odium's void bindings were not in that thirty, then it would be 3X10.  As I stated that I am unsure as to exactly what numbers cultivation and Odium are.  We have strong hints but nothing that nails it down.

The old Magic might very well be (partially due to its name and due to it possibly being the origin of the original spren) be a power of Adonalsium, left over from the original shattering as has been theorized by people better than me.  That is why it is difficult or possibly spoilery for Brandon to talk about it in "certain" language.

6 hours ago, BlackYeti said:

This can be extended to other worlds' magic systems as well, with him saying that Allomancy could be classed as its own system, or each misting power could be classed as its own system. He's even said that all 3 Metallic Arts could be considered the same system. In short, therefore, it can't be true to say that there is only one correct way to classify each magic system

On Scandrial there are 16 allomantic metals, the Feruchemists have 16 powers based upon the 16 allomantic metals, but hemalurgy only SEEMS to play by these rules, but doesn't.  Ruin has the exact same powers as anyone he steals them from... Ruin only has one power, the power to steal at a loss, and that power seems to be very unique to his shard.  It also matches up with his one stated purpose, atrophy.  We end up with 3 systems on one planet with 2 shards.  a 16 power system which is Preservation's, a one power system which is Ruin's and a mix system that also has 16 powers which is feruchemy (which might be rebranded as Harmony's magic system as it is balance, and was formed by the interaction/friction of P&R).  But how do we end up with a mix system with the same number of powers?  16X1.  this also shows up nicely with how Ruin can take from anyone a power and repurpose it.  The medallions in GEN2 Mistborn, are actually Feruchemy, not Hemalurgy.  They are not powers acquired through theft and loss but rather gifted for free, with the source of the power being linked to via connection.

Now do you see why it could be considered that same power... it is a power that is mirrored by a power that steals it and they mixed to create a power that is a power and its own reflection.  16X1=16

 

While talking with you has helped my theory along, I didn't want to drag other people, who might see this thread, into this messy theory-baking process, I just wanted a data collection point.  It seems this might not be the place for me to post.

 

In your signature, you seem to indicate that Preservation makes things go, actually Preservation makes things stop.  Ruin Makes things go.

Quote

There is Herr, and his sister Frue, who is also his wife. And she makes things stop, and he makes things go,

 

Edited by Hawkido
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7 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I didn't really want to get into any of this type of discussion on these boards because this theory is still baking... All I wanted to do was say hey I started noticing this number thing, has anyone else seen this and maybe spotted other things that I don't have on my list?  I never expected so much flak, for posting a simple number theory on a theory board.  If I could delete the whole thing I would.

I'll say this, I think the reason you're catching flak is because your theory ignores many things people have come to take for granted, but at the same time, I'm not sure those things are necessarily true.  You're challenging the status quo, which shouldn't be something causing you so much trouble, but it typically does.  Don't stop, though!

That said, you have been a bit abrasive at times, so that might affect it too.  I really do like your ideas, and it does make sense if you throw away some of the basic understandings we decided we believe, but that may be misinterpretations of Brandon's statements.  I'm still semi-new here myself, so I think some of those things haven't sunk in as much for me as those who have been around for longer.

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On 2/28/2017 at 3:18 PM, Mati said:

So it's a possibility, then Ruin's Hemalurgy would have one power to correspond one from other shards power, so 16 for 16 of preservation. In my theory Ten Essences are relation beetwen Hemalurgy and surgebinding - a gemstone possibly being material for spike, a Herald related directing to order and powers, and body focus like Inhalation or Exhalation ( nose, mouth or maybe lungs), it would then make one possible spike for each of Honors powers. This would make Ruin have 1 to correspond any other shard power.

The issue though is that there is no real tangible relationship between gemstones and surgebinding. There is really only one as far as I'm aware, that soulcasting requires gems, but that has been stated to be an exception which the other branches of surgebinding do not have. Furthermore, there isn't really a way to expand that to other system since at least two others appear to have non-physical analogues for metals. Therefore, it seems more likely that it just uses metal as its controller for all theft, as we've seen. There's isn't really a need to use other materials either, as far as I can tell, as with sixteen metals and, if I recall correctly, hundreds of bindpoints, the potential to steal thousands of attributes before even expanding into other materials is there. 

10 hours ago, Hawkido said:

If Honor and Endowment were on a planet you would have either a 15 or 50 power magic system, depending on whether Brandon went additive or multiplicative (he might go subtractive in the future, for reasons below).  I think he tends to go additive when the shardic numbers are high as creating and making a 240 magic power system on one planet just because shard 15 and 16 showed up on one planet would be VERRY difficult.  We may see squares of powers on a planet with 2 low number shards just to give a more diverse magic system if that ever occurs in the series, and on Roshar I think it has been stated that Void Binding will be very similar to Surge Binding, mostly because there are just so many powers and making them all be interesting AND wildly different would be super duper hard.

So you're saying that Brandon would just change up how many variations of the manifestations of investiture would exist just for the sake of making the writing easier? That sounds like killing consistency for the sake of writing, which seems like poor writing, and something completely out of character for him. Therefore, I think that if you're arguing for the variations in magic systems to be based around some function of the numbers of the shards involved, it would have to be consistent throughout all manifestations of investiture. 

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4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Therefore, I think that if you're arguing for the variations in magic systems to be based around some function of the numbers of the shards involved, it would have to be consistent throughout all manifestations of investiture. 

I would potentially allow an exception with regards to some "mixture" of end-negative systems, but otherwise I agree with this sentiment. The connections should be consistent and provable. (Makes we wonder if Ruin would always have a end-negative system...)

15 hours ago, Hawkido said:

The 16th shard has 16 attributes (I haven't heard Preservation refer to them as purposes as other shards have)  the 10th shard has 10 purposes, the 1st shard has one purpose.  The connection I am seeing is that the 16th shard has a base16 magic system, the 10th shard has a base10 magic system, the first shard only has a one function magic system.  It so far seems the 5th shard can only create 5 forms of life if you count humans as one, and as each human is born with a Breath on Nalthis I believe you have to count that, right along with the other 4 forms of Breath-Created life.

This is an.. interesting way of putting it, and not entirely without merit. Biggest issue I can see right now is that the Shards were(as far as we know) all created at the same time, so how they would get their numbers is up for debate.

15 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I didn't read his comment as a refutation, nor did I read it as a subscription to my cause, It just sounded to me like he saw what I was saying and tried to say it better.

In all honesty, I technically was disagreeing with you. Scadrial read as "you cannot make apple pie without apples" and Roshar read as "you cannot make apple pie without oranges" so I tried to put them in the same category. It all worked out in the end somehow.

15 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I didn't really want to get into any of this type of discussion on these boards because this theory is still baking... [..] While talking with you has helped my theory along, I didn't want to drag other people, who might see this thread, into this messy theory-baking process, I just wanted a data collection point.  It seems this might not be the place for me to post.

Well, whenever your idea is up for discussion, make a thread of your own to explain the theory. The fact that an idea isn't fully fleshed out hasn't stopped any of us from posting our own crazy ideas in the past. Discussion usually leads to better ideas/understanding.

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4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

That sounds like killing consistency for the sake of writing, which seems like poor writing, and something completely out of character for him.

Brandon Sanderson - 318R - #8 (Magic Systems)

Third Law, about 41 minutes in.

also from his web page about the third law:

Quote

I will tell you this, though. When I stopped thinking of the Stormlight Archive along the lines of “I want to add more awesome magics!” and instead started thinking, “What are the common themes to the magics, and how can I interconnect and consolidate those themes?” my worldbuilding got stronger.

Seems like making an exception to strengthen the storybuilding is exactly what he would do.

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55 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Brandon Sanderson - 318R - #8 (Magic Systems)

Third Law, about 41 minutes in.

also from his web page about the third law:

Seems like making an exception to strengthen the storybuilding is exactly what he would do.

I don't see how you're getting that interpretation. The quote just seems to be saying "Make something consistent and well structured instead of just 'rule of cool'". Nothing about it says that he started adding exceptions to what structures he had already said in place, just that instead of adding more, he reinforced the structure already in place. Creating exceptions doesn't reinforce a structure, nor does it interconnect and consolidate the themes already in place, which is exactly what he said he did.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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On 3/4/2017 at 7:32 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't see how you're getting that interpretation. The quote just seems to be saying "Make something consistent and well structured instead of just 'rule of cool'". Nothing about it says that he started adding exceptions to what structures he had already said in place

I said he does the Math in a different way, for the sake of writing.  and that quote from him plus his class on writing shows he had to come up with a way to "Go Deeper with Magic instead of going Wider" specifically because of Stormlight Archive, as otherwise his magic would be all over the place and would lose its value to the reader.  The Structure he had in place, if you follow my logic (which it seems you don't and that is fine by me), does support this kind of structure.  Magic System combinations when shards mix have to be a mathematical function of each other (add, subtract, divide, multiply, square or root).  So far in every system in which we have a pretty good idea what the shard numbers are, this system seems to yield a workable solution, when a book comes out that flagrantly spoils this illusion then the theory dies, like so many before it.  You say you see things differently, that does not change the way I see things.  I don't think it is wrong for two people to read the same book and come up with different meaning and interpretations.  In fact there are many quotes from Brandon that state that this is one of the things he loves about reading and writing.  I promise that I have not killed your dog with any of the words i have written.  Do not take offense at them, this idea poses no threat to you nor any of your beliefs or theories you might have.  Please try to let other people have theories in a forum that they can be discussed without someone demanding everything must be proven... If everything were proven it wouldn't be a theory, it would be written by Brandon in one of the books.

Edited by Hawkido
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11 hours ago, Hawkido said:

I said he does the Math in a different way, for the sake of writing.  and that quote from him plus his class on writing shows he had to come up with a way to "Go Deeper with Magic instead of going Wider" specifically because of Stormlight Archive, as otherwise his magic would be all over the place and would lose its value to the reader.  The Structure he had in place, if you follow my logic (which it seems you don't and that is fine by me), does support this kind of structure.  Magic System combinations when shards mix have to be a mathematical function of each other (add, subtract, divide, multiply, square or root).  So far in every system in which we have a pretty good idea what the shard numbers are, this system seems to yield a workable solution, when a book comes out that flagrantly spoils this illusion then the theory dies, like so many before it.

I see what you mean, but I don't see that interpretation. To me, nothing seems to be indicated from the quote that he was trying to add magic systems because it fit the structure in place or that he stopped and created an exception to reinforce the storytelling. To me, the quote seems to be saying that he started with an approach where he thought that a lot of varied magic systems would be interesting, then switch mindsets and realized that a fewer number of systems but better defined would build the wold better. This wouldn't create an exception as long as he continued to stay within the structure he had in place, and there has been nothing, as far as I can tell, to say that he hasn't. 

The thing you seemed to have missed, is that my issue with the number of magic systems and associate variations to be the result of a mathematical function from the attribute of the shards was not because it doesn't fit the world structure presented, but rather because your reasoning for why he would do so was something I found to be poor. You argued that he would change the mathematical function used because it would make the narrative easier and more interesting to write, not because it conformed to some underlying structure in the Cosmere. Make no mistake, I have nothing against the multiple mathematical functions idea save that it I don't ascribe to the idea that the numbers are associated with the shards and that we haven't seen a sign of different mathematical functions so that I don't see why we should be adding unneeded complexity to the idea. No, as I said, my issue is that you argued for it from a narrative perspective versus a Cosmere mechanics perspective, and I don't think narrative perspectives have any real merit for explaining a world structure theory. This doesn't mean that you cannot use the narrative as a reason to induce a world structure change; this just means, in my opinion, that a properly defined change in the world structure needs to be made in order to explain the narrative. 

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3 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't see that interpretation.

 

17 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't see how you're getting that interpretation.

And many more times, you state that you don't understand what I am saying.  you state repeatedly that you don't see it.  Not once has anyone doubted this.  I believe you wholeheartedly that you do not see it.  It is not my purpose to try to make you see it.  All I want are references to numbers of shards in the stories.  I stated why i wanted the numbers for context.  While there have been people who have pointed out information to continue this effort (I may have never spotted Endowment's number as it was more subtle), others just seem to want to downvote any post I make about this.  I really do not understand why.  Is that the purpose of this site?  Downvoting a theory because you do not understand it?  Or are you supposed to downvote a theory because you have a competing theory?  If there is a competing theory about the number of magic systems that has a relevance on the Cosmere other than "because", why hasn't it been mentioned along with the downvote?  I have never used the downvote button as it seems counter-intuitive to promoting a discussion.  If someone came out making hateful comments, using foul language, or trolling another poster, then I could see downvoting someone.  But not just because I don't see their theory as they do.  I see that act as trying to silence anyone who doesn't think as you do.  Which would lead to a forum of only one voice, which would invalidate this entire site.  What would be the point of having people come here to discuss the books if only one viewpoint were allowed?

You have repeatedly put up arguments against this theory, I have countered them with my interpretation, my interpretation is not baseless  I am not blindly throwing thoughtless arguments out as I have given reasons, quotes, and references for my points.  You just do not see it from my perspective.  You read things differently.  Great, that is what I want in this site!  But I also want this site to ALLOW another viewpoint to be expressed as well as my viewpoint, which it seems is not what at least 4 other posters want.  But as I stated before, the way you see things does not change the way I see things.  There is actually a real world theory that everyone who proclaims a favored color, each all see the exact same color in their mind.  It is just that they were taught different names for it, as their brains translate the light frequencies differently.  A blind person sees color differently, than one who can see.

I would rather be lambasted for following my convictions than be lauded for abandoning them.

Edited by Hawkido
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If you want another possible explaination (I don't remember if I write it before):

This theory (with some merit but not confirmed) is about every Shardworld having a "Number" not the Shards. When Shards Invested into a Shardworld the Magic that arose from them is structured on the Shardworld's setting (Focus and Number).

So in the Specific cases:

- Scadiral is 16

- Roshar is 10

- Braize is 9

- Nalthis is (probably) 5
- Taldain is (extreme speculation) 2 or 8

No real clues for the others
This could be of course not a perfect Idea...but the core concept is consistent with the observed's worlds

The Shard of course set the way a Magic User is Initiated

 

About the actual Magic Systems' cardinality, it is a common belief that they are simply a function of the shards investing into a shardworld.
 
Edited by Yata
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7 minutes ago, Yata said:

If you want another possible explaination (I don't remember if I write it before):

This theory (with some merit but not confirmed) is about every Shardworld having a "Number" not the Shards. When Shards Invested into a Shardworld the Magic that arose from them is structured on the Shardworld's setting (Focus and Number).

So in the Specific cases:

- Scadiral is 16

- Roshar is 10

- Braize is 9

- Nalthis is (probably) 5
- Taldain is (extreme speculation) 2 or 8

No real clues for the others
This could be of course not a perfect Idea...but the core concept is consistent with the observed's worlds

 

Well, I am glad you have a theory, even though you hadn't posted it on this thread, if anywhere.  But as I see it your theory is just "because".  Because each world has a number, done.  That doesn't give us any clue as to what will happen if another shard shows up.  If Preservation uproots himself and shows up on Roshar suddenly there will only be 10 allomantic metals?  It has to be metals, unless the entire nature of Preservation changes.  Such as, if it were to change to gems then gems would be blinding to Preservation.  Other shards will be showing up on other planets later in the series.  Ala, Autonomy on Scandrial.  But Honor had his purposes before he ended up on Roshar, and those purposes were 10 in number.  Scadrial didn't exist prior to P&R, so why did that planet get the number 16?  The answer seems to be "Because".  I don't see that as a rule of the cosmere... Perhaps the numbers things has nothing at all to do with the Cosmere.  But I rather think a god would make the planet the way they want not the other way around.

We haven't yet seen a planet with no prior shard involvement present with a number.  That is why this theory never presented in my mind.  But we do have 2 shards explicitly stated that they have number s significant to them.

However feel free to explore this and if you start a thread (let me know).  then I will report any planets i find presenting numbers.  If you do not start a thread then I will reply to this post.

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27 minutes ago, Yata said:

If you want another possible explaination (I don't remember if I write it before):

This theory (with some merit but not confirmed) is about every Shardworld having a "Number" not the Shards. When Shards Invested into a Shardworld the Magic that arose from them is structured on the Shardworld's setting (Focus and Number).

So in the Specific cases:

- Scadiral is 16

- Roshar is 10

- Braize is 9

- Nalthis is (probably) 5
- Taldain is (extreme speculation) 2 or 8

No real clues for the others
This could be of course not a perfect Idea...but the core concept is consistent with the observed's worlds

The Shard of course set the way a Magic User is Initiated

 

About the actual Magic Systems' cardinality, it is a common belief that they are simply a function of the shards investing into a shardworld.
 

I get five for the Five Scholars, and two for the duality of Taldain, but why 8? Also, I have a theory that Sel is three, because of the three major kingdoms (Arelon, Teod, and Fjordell), the three outlets of Investiture on the main continent (AonDor, ChayShan, and Dakhor), there are three major religions (Shu-Keseg, Shu-Korath, and Shu-Dereth), and there are three letters in the word Sel. That last one needs a little work, but I digress.

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49 minutes ago, bleeder said:

I get five for the Five Scholars, and two for the duality of Taldain, but why 8? Also, I have a theory that Sel is three, because of the three major kingdoms (Arelon, Teod, and Fjordell), the three outlets of Investiture on the main continent (AonDor, ChayShan, and Dakhor), there are three major religions (Shu-Keseg, Shu-Korath, and Shu-Dereth), and there are three letters in the word Sel. That last one needs a little work, but I digress.

There are eight levels of sand masters and eight diems. 

Sel being three is fits too. There's also the fact that there are three separate domains on Sel, and that all the aons use three letters. 

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2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

and that all the aons use three letters. 

Ashe, Eshe, Shao, Sheo. All of the other known Aons follow the 3 letter pattern though, so it has a lot of merit.
Actually, we could follow the "Sh, Th, etc.." being a single letter like in Alethi and then these fit too.

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14 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Ashe, Eshe, Shao, Sheo. All of the other known Aons follow the 3 letter pattern though, so it has a lot of merit.
Actually, we could follow the "Sh, Th, etc.." being a single letter like in Alethi and then these fit too.

Oops. Good point, and good point though. Since the words are being "translated" into english characters, it wouldn't be that hard to postulate that "sh" and "th" sounds are one character in aonic script.

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46 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Oops. Good point, and good point though. Since the words are being "translated" into english characters, it wouldn't be that hard to postulate that "sh" and "th" sounds are one character in aonic script.

Well, technically those are the names of the character, they are not spelled out, just as we pronounce the letter "H" as aCHuh, but write it as "H".  It could be that it bears no relation, but if we are going to run with this point it holds also that many real world languages do have a single letter such as Arabic and the other semetic languages for SH and TH, and KH and Persian also has one for CH I believe.  But those foreign languages also have solo letters for diphthongs so the Shao and Sheo could then be written as 2 letters each.  One for the SH sound and one for the AO or EO sound.  In arabic if you wanted a diphthong for AE you would put a diacritical mark over the Aleph.  However it is often omitted and the reader just has to infer the proper vowel form for the letter.  And Pictograph languages like Chinese are not Phonetic, just symbolic with what amounts to a separate letter for each word.

Edited by Hawkido
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5 hours ago, Hawkido said:

If Preservation uproots himself and shows up on Roshar suddenly there will only be 10 allomantic metals?  It has to be metals, unless the entire nature of Preservation changes.  Such as, if it were to change to gems then gems would be blinding to Preservation.

Actually, Brandon has strongly implied, if not confirmed, that the metals, gems, etc (we've started calling them Focuses) that each world uses as significant to the magic, is something unique to the interaction between the Shards and the planet. If another Shard invested in Scadrial, they should have a metal and any magic system spawned in the process would be based around metal. If Harmony left Scadrial (it'd have to be destroyed most likely, but if it was possible) and went and invested in Roshar, his magic system should involve the gems, or bonds, whichever is actually significant on Roshar, or perhaps both.

That's part of why I think the idea of numbers being significant to each Shardworld, rather than the Shards themselves, came about first, and it contrasts with (but doesn't by any means disprove or conflict with) the idea of the numbers being significant to the Shard itself. I actually kinda like the idea of the Focus coming from the planet, but the number coming from the Shard. I think that holds a fair bit of merit.

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1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

the idea of the numbers being significant to the Shard itself. I actually kinda like the idea of the Focus coming from the planet, but the number coming from the Shard. I think that holds a fair bit of merit.

Agreed, my theory on shard numbers only deals with the quantification of the powers, not their qualities and it relates them to the number of purposes or attributes, if the shards all don't identify them as purposes.  I believe it was stated that Preservation viewed them as gifts, I'll have to look that up, though.  And I'll have to look up the info on Focuses and what Brandon said about them.  I see many quotes that deal with the quality of powers, and everyone seems to jump to equate quality with quantity.  One good fact can topple 1000 best guesses.

Edited by Hawkido
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49 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Well, technically those are the names of the character, they are not spelled out, just as we pronounce the letter "H" as aCHuh, but write it as "H".

They're the names of aons, but the aonic continent has a script which spells the name of the aons. That script is what I'm imagining to have the spellings for the aons to be three characters long.

25 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Actually, Brandon has strongly implied, if not confirmed, that the metals, gems, etc (we've started calling them Focuses) that each world uses as significant to the magic, is something unique to the interaction between the Shards and the planet. If another Shard invested in Scadrial, they should have a metal and any magic system spawned in the process would be based around metal. If Harmony left Scadrial (it'd have to be destroyed most likely, but if it was possible) and went and invested in Roshar, his magic system should involve the gems, or bonds, whichever is actually significant on Roshar, or perhaps both.

I think there's a fairly good chance that gems are not analogous to metals in the Rosharan magic systems compared to the Scadrian magics. The strongest reason I think this is because surgebinding has practically no connection to gems in its usage, with the only only connection being soulcasting which does require different gems for its magic, but which has been designated as an exception. Furthermore, recently, Brandon has described the process of binding of the surge of gravitation as being accessed through a filter of Cultivation and Honor. This seems to point towards the spren, which we've been told are made of Cultivation and Honor, and this filtering is close to what we know of how the foci work. Therefore, I'm thinking that the focus of Roshar is spren, or more generally, splinters. We also know that they're involved in fabrials. 

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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46 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I'm thinking that the focus of Roshar is spren, or more generally, splinters. We also know that they're involved in fabrials.

I wonder if that means spren glow brightly to a shard vessel as metals do on Scandrial?  We haven't had any shard holder view points on Roshar to date so it will be interesting.

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16 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

I wonder if that means spren glow brightly to a shard vessel as metals do on Scandrial?  We haven't had any shard holder view points on Roshar to date so it will be interesting.

Indeed we have It (or at least a sort of).

The Vessels (Canon term for "shardholder" ) blindness (as Ruin and preservation with metal) isn't something strictly related to Shards. They Simply can't properly read something on metal because the metal flows fiercely in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm....Also Humans or other being there Will have trouble with It (also if probably a shard is more sensibile to It...Hard to Say).

Now returning to us, both Shallan and Jasnah (the latter much more) had pow in the Cognitive and the Spren didn't seems to bright more....They have both Black Spren, a radiance (pun intended) Will be noticed.

Also the Spren are for their own nature Splinter, therefore they hold a really relevant amount of investiture. If they have...They will probabily glow in every CR's sub-region (there is a Canon term but i don't remember It now), focus or not.

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