Preservation and Sixteen

[Koldun]

Most of us know that the number 16 is incredibly prevalent in the plans of Preservation. We also know he functions based on his intent, in this case preservation. Perhaps, the reason for his focus on the number 16 is in an attempt to preserve the memory of the Shattering, to preserve the memory of those who aided on the defeat of Adolnasium. Despite some of them becoming Splintered, the number 16, which stands for the number of the First Vessels.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Koldun

[Weltall]

We don't know if Preservation and Ruin had any control over the number of allomantic metals that exist in their magic systems. We know the magic is born from an interaction between multiple factors rather than being deliberately created by the Shard powering any given system. Scadrial was however made after the Shattering and in Yolen's image so it's possible that sixteen becoming a significant number on that world was either intentional or at least the result of something going on in their subconscious (bearing in mind that with the two of them cooperating, Ruin would have influenced the creation too if it was a subconscious thing) when they made the planet. We don't really know why any given world has one number be significant over any other. Interesting idea though and I'm suspicious of coincidences in Brandon's works.

[Koldun]

Yeah, I mean, it was the "coincidence" of 16 percent of people exposed to the mist falling ill that tipped off the crew that there was some significance behind the deaths. Also, the death of Adolnasium was a thing of Ruin, with the testament to the 16 Shards a thing of Preservation.

[Ardjet]

5 minutes ago, Koldun said:

Yeah, I mean, it was the "coincidence" of 16 percent of people exposed to the mist falling ill that tipped off the crew that there was some significance behind the deaths. Also, the death of Adolnasium was a thing of Ruin, with the testament to the 16 Shards a thing of Preservation.

Do you happen to have a confirmation on Adonalsium? I haven't heard that before, and I'm honestly not sure how the Shattering was a thing of Ruin, when Ruin was still a part of Adonalsium at the time.

[Koldun]

Well, death is ruination, and Shards are drawn to their intent. I believe it's on the wiki, where it says that Adolnasium was destroyed and shattered into several pieces, which were inherited by the Vessels

[Yata]

@Koldun you are mixing together two different things:

Indeed the "coincidences" of the 16 in many many Scadrial's events is a deliberate choice of Preservation. He wanted a sign who could not be influenced by culture, or scales.

He choosed the 16 because the Allomancy (and other metallic arts) is 16 based and the mankind would be able to recognize it (thanks TLR to hide some metals and give to the men an hard time)

BUT the Metallic Arts are naturally 16 based...Notice how Ruin has the same control of Preservation over this. It's the same reason the number 10 arise on the Roshar's magic. It's a natural outcome of the Shardic Interation with the Shardworld they invest into.

Of course Scadrial case is a bit special, because the Shards actually made it. So it's possible (but both the Shards will influence it) that Ruin & Preservation made the planet to get a specific outcome.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Yata

[Koldun]

Hmm, thanks @Yata! 

[Hawkido]

I always thought the Numbers were the order in which the shards were picked up or some other important indicator.

Quote

 

1.    Ruin (Only one power, the power to re-appropriate investiture at a loss)

2.

3.    Cultivation (slim possibility, too little information)

4.

5.    Endowment (5 visions of Vo, 5 Scholars, 25 Gods in a full Pantheon)

6.

7.

8.    Autonomy (8 SandMaster ranks, 8 professions)

9.    Odium (seems likely, 9 currency gemstones on a 10 gemstone planet, other quotes from BS suggesting 9 unmade and 9 voidbindings) 

10.  Honor (outright stated in books and by WoB)

11.  Cultivation (Slim possibility Odium, Teft Curses by Damnation's 11th name if Damnation is Braize, if damnation is Ashen then not)

12.

13.

14.

15.

16.   Preservation (outright stated in books and WoB)

 

I haven't seen enough of the other shards to find a recurring number when mentioning them, but will be re-reading the books shortly with that in mind. Honor being 10 and preservation being 16 is obvious, and there is one specific and pointed mention about Odium having 11 as a significant number, but there have also been hints by Brandon of "not ten" unmade and 9 voidbindings, plus a WoB about the Void "Heralds" not exactly matching up with the Honor Heralds and about them not having the exact same number.  Last re-read I got distracted by the story and forgot to keep my eyes and ears out for Numbers... 

There have been disputes with this theory due to a competing theory (Posted by Yata, further down in the thread) that the powers are based upon planets as there is a WoB to that effect.  But I disagree with the extent that they read into that WoB.  If Autonomy had been on a water world there would still be 8 professions, and 8 levels of Watermastery, not some other number, the elements of the magic system would change but not the quantity.

If two shards dwell in the same system, they will mathematically react and cause a mathematical function to occur between their shard numbers (add, subtract, divide, multiply, square, or root). Take Scandrial for example, two shards 16 and 1, three magic systems are present, allomancy, hemalurgy, and feruchemy.  two have 16 powers, hemalurgy WAS believed to have 16 powers, but has now been confirmed to have only 1, the power to re-appropriate another shards power at a loss (either steal only one power and lose the rest, or steal the only power they have, but either way the stolen power atrophies over time and Ruin/Harmony cannot restrict who can use this power as using it fills his sole purpose: atrophy, loss, ruin) so three systems, Preservation's Allomancy with 16 powers, Ruin's Hemalurgy with one power and the combined power of Feruchemy which has 16 X 1 powers... 16.  we only have two other planets inhabited by more than one shard and Sel's shards have been splintered and stuffed into the cognitive realm thus very difficult to tell what is going on there, I also believe that some of Ambition's splintered shard's powers ended up on Sel as well (do a word search for Ambition in Elantris, then read those passages), and finally Roshar, two shards remain unsplintered, one (Honor) is splintered but Odium was not able to deal with it in the usual way (stuffing it into the Cognitive Realm) and it had invested in that system such that its structure still persists.  So 10 surge bindings, 10 Heralds.  But we have a WoB that there are/will-be-shown-to-be 30 magic systems on Roshar. So, how do we get 30 magic systems?  if Odium is 9 and Cultivation is 11 the 9+10+11=30, but that is if Brandon means the whole system of Roshar.  If he just means the planet of Roshar and is talking about in the future, then that means that Odium will (as we suspect) come directly to Roshar.  Brandon has stated the the surges granted to a surge binder come with an added boon.  Each unique and related to the type of surge binder, Shallan's drawing from memory was referenced.  I believe this is how Brandon is doing Cultivation's influence upon Honor's magic system.  But where is Cultivations number, and Cultivation's magic system?  Her magic system (the old Magic) has only been alluded to so far with few examples.  but we do have the story near the end of Way of Kings that seems to indicate Cultivation took 10 stones to her dying lover and harvested his seed to create 10 people (I think this is an in-book corruption of the story and it should be 10 peoples or nations), but her name in the story is Parasaphi (suprisingly similar to both Parshendi or Parap-shenesh-idi, which is Parshendi when written in glyphs)  Which seems a tenious hint that the parshendi existed on Roshar prior to Honor's nations.  10+1=11. 11 nations of Sapient Humans on one planet, and Life, sapient life, seems to be Cultivation's power.  I wonder how many non-human sapient lifeforms there are on Roshar?  We have about half a dozen examples so far.

**UPDATED LIST WITH CORRECTIONS AND ADDITIONS, ALSO EXPANDED AND EXPLAINED THE THEORY MORE**

Edited March 30, 2017 by Hawkido
Corrections and additions to the list, plus expansion and explanation

[Jofwu]

Odium's number seems to be 9:

 

[Landis963]

Does that mean Endowment was Shard #5?  And what of Taldain, which has "a thousand fools" and no other religiously significant numbers?  (I'm assuming that D&D's numbers have long been forgotten since they were splintered)

[Spoolofwhool]

On 16/02/2017 at 2:38 PM, Hawkido said:

I always thought the Numbers were the order in which the shards were picked up or some other important indicator.

I haven't seen enough of the other shards to find a recurring number when mentioning them, but will be re-reading the books shortly with that in mind. Honor being 10 and preservation being 16 is obvious, and there is one specific and pointed mention about Odium having 11 as a significant number, plus a WoB about the Void "Heralds" not exactly matching up with the Honor Heralds and about them not having the exact same number.  Last re-read I got distracted by the story and forgot to keep my eyes and ears out for Numbers... but I seem to remember that two of the shards I read about made being "2" and "3" sound plausible.  Does this really matter?  Who knows.

The numbers seem to be more related to the planet than the shard as Ruin's manifestations of investiture, hemalurgy and feruchemy, also use the number 16. Additionally, on Roshar, all three manifestations of investiture manifest the number 10, and chances are at least one of them is separate from Honor, or least has another shard involved.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Darkness Ascendant]

oh damnation, that reminds me.

Brandon had a WoB saying that the reason Odium can overpower the other shards has something to do with his number.

Which is 9

9 is a square of 3

Honor, Odium, Cultivation.

huh

[Spoolofwhool]

47 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

oh damnation, that reminds me.

Brandon had a WoB saying that the reason Odium can overpower the other shards has something to do with his number.

Which is 9

9 is a square of 3

Honor, Odium, Cultivation.

huh

Link to the WoB? Also, I think there's more to say that the numbers belong to the planets. 

[Darkness Ascendant]

38 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Link to the WoB? Also, I think there's more to say that the numbers belong to the planets. 

Oh yeah, and Braize is the third planet in the system. I'm trying to find the WoB but there's a lot of stuff to sift through

LITERALLY JUST FOUND IT LMAO

INTERVIEW: Mar 5th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - ericth (Paraphrased)

ERICTH

What is Odium's edge. Vin and Ati killed each other but Rayse has downed 3 shards and survived. Was it skill, ability, numbers or possibly un-dispersed power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Some combination of the above.

TAGS

odium, shards

Also found this

INTERVIEW: Mar 22nd, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Argent (Verbatim)

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Brandon talked about something he called "Honor's purposes" or maybe "Honor's Purposes," and how they are the reason 10 is such a holy and dominant number - I assumed it meant Honor has (had) 10 of those Purposes. It was heavily implied in the conversation that Odium, if he has similar Purposes, does not have 10 of them.

TAGS

honor,

Odium has 9 purposes perhaps?

and this

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2014

Orem Signing Report - Zas678 (Paraphrased)

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Odium is able to influence all 3 important planets in the Rosharan system, Roshar, Braize, and Ashyn.

TAGS

odium, braize, roshar, ashyn,

3!!! again!

Edited February 17, 2017 by Darkness Ascendant

[Spoolofwhool]

For the first one was, I think numbers is referring to like, quantity of shards. So in other words, they're asking if he had help.

The second one seems really vague and doesn't seem to be really saying anything. It's paraphrased and the person who wrote seems to have had a bad recollection of what was said.

The third one has no bearing on the matter. I doubt he chose Braize because it was third.

Overall, there's nothing tangible there whereas we have a much better case for the numbers belonging to the planet where the manifestation of investiture is occurring. Primarily, the fact that both Ruin and Preservation have created systems with the number 16 embedded. Additionally, each of the three systems on Roshar have the number 10 embedded, and I don't think all of them are only of Honor. At least one is probably not of Honor at all.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[soyperson]

All but 1 of the Heralds abandoned their Oaths, maybe it has something to do with the nine Oathbreakers.

[Spoolofwhool]

10 minutes ago, bleeder said:

All but 1 of the Heralds abandoned their Oaths, maybe it has something to do with the nine Oathbreakers.

So you're thinking that it was deliberate that only Taln was killed? Possible. As Kalek mentions, he did die in a predictable manner so it could've been planned.

[soyperson]

37 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

So you're thinking that it was deliberate that only Taln was killed? Possible. As Kalek mentions, he did die in a predictable manner so it could've been planned.

I mean, I don't know about deliberate, but since nine abandoned their oaths and Odium now reigns, there might be something there.

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, bleeder said:

I mean, I don't know about deliberate, but since nine abandoned their oaths and Odium now reigns, there might be something there.

Unless there were some intentions towards nine, I think probably just coincidental plus some symbology by Brandon.

[soyperson]

24 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Unless there were some intentions towards nine, I think probably just coincidental plus some symbology by Brandon.

Love the symbology. Especially the numerology.

[Hawkido]

On 2/16/2017 at 1:38 PM, Hawkido said:

...and there is one specific and pointed mention about Odium having 11 as a significant number...

I mis-remembered, I just knew it was near 10... like right beside it.

I think Cultivation's number is 3.  How many planets in the Roshar system can support life?  3, however due to odium's influence 2 can only barely support life, 

 

[soyperson]

30 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

I mis-remembered, I just knew it was near 10... like right beside it.

I think Cultivation's number is 3.  How many planets in the Roshar system can support life?  3, however due to odium's influence 2 can only barely support life, 

 

That would make sense to me. I hope we see some of her in Oathbringer.

[Hawkido]

1 minute ago, bleeder said:

That would make sense to me. I hope we see some of her in Oathbringer.

I would really love to see her thoughts... She needs to talk to Sazed.  Maybe get a fresh perspective to relate to humans once again.

[Hawkido]

On 2/17/2017 at 2:01 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

The numbers seem to be more related to the planet than the shard as Ruin's manifestations of investiture, hemalurgy and feruchemy, also use the number 16. Additionally, on Roshar, all three manifestations of investiture manifest the number 10, and chances are at least one of them is separate from Honor, or least has another shard involved.

Perhaps you need to look more broadly at the situation, it might not be as cut and dried as you are trying to make it: 

On Ruin and Preservation: 1 X 16 = ?

On Roshar, there are only 9 currency gems (Odium Significance?), Life is the power of Cultivation... it only exists on 3 planets.  

Remember the metals used on Scandrial are no different than any other metals (the God metals are not part of the 16.)  the investiture on Scadrial is not in the metals but in the people.  On Roshar the investiture is not directly in the people, but in the relationship between the people and the Spren.  Odium has not directly invested himself in the system, he has been trapped by something done to him by honor and cultivation, we are not very clear on what that is, Sanderson said it takes Odium an amount of time to recover from splintering a shard, perhaps Cultivation figured out a way to take advantage of this and bound just enough of him to the system to stick him there.  Only Honor and Cultivation were fully invested in this system.  Odium Spren now exist, I believe this is part of the trap.

[Spoolofwhool]

38 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

On Ruin and Preservation: 1 X 16 = ?

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

39 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Life is the power of Cultivation... it only exists on 3 planets.  

That's approaching Cultivation from a really limited viewpoint. It's more accurately the natural growth and enhancement of concepts and objects, the opposite of Ruin's desire to bring about the natural end to things. Also, What are you considering to be life? One of the planets is home to cognitive entities, which I don't consider to be alive. 

42 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Odium has not directly invested himself in the system,

He's been there for several millennia at least, which means he would've naturally begun investing into it. Shards naturally start investing into worlds (at least), if they remain around it for too long. 

43 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

Remember the metals used on Scandrial are no different than any other metals (the God metals are not part of the 16.)  the investiture on Scadrial is not in the metals but in the people.  On Roshar the investiture is not directly in the people, but in the relationship between the people and the Spren.

I don't know what you're saying here. Please elaborate.