Identity of Trell and Senna wonderings(secret history spoilers)

[Kolfire]

Preservation said: "Oh, Senna ... I'm losing this place. Losing them all ..." when Kelsier was comforting him after the slaughter that was the Siege of Luthadel (john203 on rainbow shards on scadrial.)

 

I recently was skimming through the shard and bumped into a thing about Senna. I was wondering who she could be and thought of an idea. What if Senna was another shard? There are unnamed vessels and one of them could have made preservation promise to hold off ruin and help people survive. Now when so many people died she was annoyed that he failed her. Because of this she got really angry. She then sprinted towards scadrial and formed the red haze and we now know her as Trell. Any idea what her intent could be? Post your ideas below

[Weltall]

It's possible that Senna is the name of another Vessel. Both Ati and Leras were pretty disoriented before they went Beyond though so we have no idea what they were thinking about. Ati apparently didn't even remember what planet he was on, since he name-drops a location first mentioned in the Elantris (10A) Ars Arcanum. But the idea that Senna was a Vessel to whom Preservation made a promise to hold off Ruin and now he/she is attacking Scadrial... well, that requires a ton of assumptions with no real evidence and rather more unfortunately, it has Word of Brandon acting against it: The unknown metal in Paalm's spikes was from a Shard we already know about.

Most of us seem to be leaning towards the theory that Trell is one of the many personas that Bavadin has created and has tapped to use in her current meddling with Scadrial. We know from the essay in AU that Autonomy actively interferes with other words and WoB on Bavadin being 'entire pantheons' so it's a natural assumption now that any mystery god that shows up could be her. Paalm's actions and dialogue also sound focused on the concept of autonomy.

As for the red mist, we have WoB that Odium would be willing to work with other Shards to accomplish a goal (and maybe already has) so long as he got to be in charge. It's possible the red mist represents Autonomy's influence but with Era 2 taking place between the first and second half of Stormlight Archive it's possible that Odium becomes free to influence things in other systems in the interval, so we can't rule out that the mist represents him. This admitedly is much more speculative and a lot of it comes down to the color association, especially red eyes.

TLDR: Whatever the red mist is, it's related to a Shard we already know about and the most likely candidates are Autonomy, Odium or the two working together in some fashion.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Weltall said:

TLDR: Whatever the red mist is, it's related to a Shard we already know about and the most likely candidates are Autonomy, Odium or the two working together in some fashion.

Something I've seen recently (sometime in the past several hours) is the idea that the Red Mist is what Harmony is doing with the extra Ruin he has. As in the mist is a magical border keeping this other Shard out and/or the mist is a result of his power and this other Shard clashing. I like the idea, if only because I don't like it being Autonomy since it feels too easy.

[Weltall]

Huh, this topic seems to have been double-posted. Didn't notice that earlier.

[Khyrindor]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Something I've seen recently (sometime in the past several hours) is the idea that the Red Mist is what Harmony is doing with the extra Ruin he has. As in the mist is a magical border keeping this other Shard out and/or the mist is a result of his power and this other Shard clashing. I like the idea, if only because I don't like it being Autonomy since it feels too easy.

Problem is, Harmony says he doesn't know what it is.

The reason Autonomy makes so much sense is in light of an AU spoiler:

Spoiler

Khriss notes that Autonomy has been directly interfering in other planets recently which is contradictory to her earlier behavior (namely keeping the planet of Taldain on lockdown).

And because Paalm's behavior in Shadows of Self would match the Intent of Autonomy.

 

That said. I'm on the Odium/Autonomy team, and I have a few reasons for this.

1. Hoid mentions his beef with "Bavadin and Rayse" in the same breath in the letters.

2. A theory of mine that I bring up whenever it's relevant is that Odium and Autonomy could have worked together before, in Splintering Devotion and Dominion. It makes sense for me because Devotion is a good candidate for Odium's opposite (remember the WoB that said they aren't all perfect matches like Preservation and Ruin) making a hate/love pair, and Autonomy is almost certainly the opposite of Dominion. Odium would be hard-pressed to Splinter two Shards on his own I think, so it makes sense that he would recruit the opposite of the other Shard on Sel to help him. Remember Odium's hit list: Ambition, Devotion and Dominion, then Honour, then everyone else. Devotion and Dominion make sense because one is his opposite and the other could rival him.

3. Odium is very scared of Harmony, because he holds two Shards (this also lends credence to my theory that he wouldn't be able to Splinter Devotion and Dominion on his own). The problem is, Odium is currently stuck in the Greater Roshar system. BUT, Brandon has said that the Era 2 of Mistborn happens after Stormlight 5 because of "Cosmere events that need to happen."

In conclusion, Odium may have, by the end of Stormlight 5, escaped the Roshar system, not wanting to stick around once he's free to risk his defeat, and contacted his old ally Bavadin, who suddenly switched he position of lockdown to go meddle with a common threat, Harmony.

[The One Who Connects]

13 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Problem is, Harmony says he doesn't know what it is.

I still feel that the mist could be a visual and/or natural effect of his power clashing with the other Shard's power. Just because he doesn't know for sure what it is doesn't automatically make it alien. He hasn't had another shard to test it on before now.
Call it an while typing edit I guess: I just reread the scene with the Red Haze, and he does refer to it as "A representation. A crude one, perhaps" so it isn't technically as simple as I put it. There is mention of it being stopped by a thin strip of light however, which only leads to more questions... sigh

The AU Spoiler is why I felt that it all being Autonomy was "too easy." 

I never really put stock into his mentioning them in the same breath, as it could just as easily be him putting them into the same sentence because its easier than separating them, especially since he does not go into much/any detail about why he has a grudge against them. Additionally, he still refers to them with names that they haven't really gone by in several millennia. It just feels that his grudge against them extends back to before the Shattering.

By technicality, Odium went after pairs of Shards, as he was afraid something like Harmony to happen. Ambition is the odd one out as the primary target. He did not go after R&P because they were opposites and less of a danger. Meaning that his choice of D&D was motivated by his worry that they would combine sooner than Honor and Cultivation would. I bring this up because it runs counter to your point. You believe that he saw a want, perhaps a need, to have help on Sel, and in your theory he does the same for Scadrial, but he does not do this for Roshar, which doesn't make sense.
I'm dragging this into point 3 now that I look at it. You don't think he could take D&D on his own, but he specifically tries to take out H&C on his own. I'm curious about this "events need to happen line though" as I've never seen that before. All I've seen is that Alloy Era takes place "at least after Stormlight 5" Not specifically in the gap between the halves.

The problem(s) with Odium leaving after Stormlight 5 is that there is still 5 more books in that series, and I'm curious why you think he would go back. Actually now that I think about it, he'd have to properly break the Oathpact to leave. I don't really see that somehow happening in 3 books, especially since Taln(the one keeping the Oathpact alive) is set for the back half.

[Khyrindor]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I still feel that the mist could be a visual and/or natural effect of his power clashing with the other Shard's power. Just because he doesn't know for sure what it is doesn't automatically make it alien. He hasn't had another shard to test it on before now.
Call it an while typing edit I guess: I just reread the scene with the Red Haze, and he does refer to it as "A representation. A crude one, perhaps" so it isn't technically as simple as I put it. There is mention of it being stopped by a thin strip of light however, which only leads to more questions... sigh

The AU Spoiler is why I felt that it all being Autonomy was "too easy." 

I never really put stock into his mentioning them in the same breath, as it could just as easily be him putting them into the same sentence because its easier than separating them, especially since he does not go into much/any detail about why he has a grudge against them. Additionally, he still refers to them with names that they haven't really gone by in several millennia. It just feels that his grudge against them extends back to before the Shattering.

By technicality, Odium went after pairs of Shards, as he was afraid something like Harmony to happen. Ambition is the odd one out as the primary target. He did not go after R&P because they were opposites and less of a danger. Meaning that his choice of D&D was motivated by his worry that they would combine sooner than Honor and Cultivation would. I bring this up because it runs counter to your point. You believe that he saw a want, perhaps a need, to have help on Sel, and in your theory he does the same for Scadrial, but he does not do this for Roshar, which doesn't make sense.
I'm dragging this into point 3 now that I look at it. You don't think he could take D&D on his own, but he specifically tries to take out H&C on his own. I'm curious about this "events need to happen line though" as I've never seen that before. All I've seen is that Alloy Era takes place "at least after Stormlight 5" Not specifically in the gap between the halves.

The problem(s) with Odium leaving after Stormlight 5 is that there is still 5 more books in that series, and I'm curious why you think he would go back. Actually now that I think about it, he'd have to properly break the Oathpact to leave. I don't really see that somehow happening in 3 books, especially since Taln(the one keeping the Oathpact alive) is set for the back half.

Very good point about hit trying to take on Honour and Cultivation on his own, but I suppose it's possible he just went after one of them alone before the other joined in the fray. I don't know if we're explicitly told that Honour and Cultivation arrived at the same time, one of them could have stepped in to help the other against Odium. Not saying that I think that's what happened, jut one possibility I thought of while reading your response. 

Do you have a confirmation that Odium was specifically targeting planets with two Shards? I hadn't seen that before, but your reasoning makes sense, if he was trying to prevent them from combining. Also a little ironic that, in splintering Devotion and Dominion, he did combine them (though admittedly in a way that's harmless to him).

Also, I agree that it's not likely Odium fled one threat to target another, but if you look at it like this: Odium, once finally free of his trap, wanting to get away before he's trapped again. Or maybe he realized he couldn't take this threat on by himself, and said "Look, Autonomy, I need some help over here," and Autonomy replied, "Okay but only if you help me kill Harmony first."

Again, I'm just thinking up some possibilities, I don't necessarily agree with those few. I do, however, think it's very likely that Odium and Autonomy have worked together in the past, and are now. 

I just don't think a small, unsubstantial piece of Ruin could be a very big threat to someone who carries two Shards. That, and the fact that the kandra don't recognize the metal, which means it's not Atium and it's probably not ettmetal.

And no matter how easy it sounds, the fact is that Autonomy is interfering in someone's planet, and that something is interfering on Scadrial. Maybe it is easy, but maybe it's supposed to be easy. It could very well be Autonomy by herself if Odium isn't going to leave the Rosharan system, but we just have a lot of evidence that at least brings the possibility of Odium into the picture that it's not something I want to dismiss.

Also, if Odium does ditch Roshar, it wouldn't be the first time he's done something similar. Recall that he initially clashed with and wounded Ambition, then left to kill Devotion and Dominion, then went back to finish the job. He already Splintered Honour, and that got him stuck on Braize for 4500 years. Maybe it's time for a regroup with his only ally.

[Spoolofwhool]

@Khyrindor Odium intentionally fused both shards into the Dor. 

Also, this topic is edging into full Cosmere Theory territory.

[Khyrindor]

So, we're getting off topic fast, so I put some WoBs I found on Odium and the discussion we were talking about in spoilers for those who are interested. Apologies on the tangent 

#1: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Scroll to number 47

Quote

QUESTION

Could - would - Odium ever work with another Shard?

BRANDON SANDERSON

If he were in charge. This is within the realm of possibility. In fact, that may have happened at various points. (I swear I can hear his sly smile…

#2: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Number 49

Quote

SEONID

"If Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved, why did Cultivation not help Honor against Odium?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"She did."

#3: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Number 50

Quote

QUESTION

Is there any connection between Odium and Trell?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[Brandon hems and haws for a moment.] Um…yes, there is some connection. That’s a question where if you understood it then great, if you didn’t then don’t worry.

#4: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='odium' Number 64

Quote

MORIDIN997

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

#5: Because we were talking about this one. Number 68

Quote

ARGENT

I want to take us back to some Shards before we skip me for the fourth time. So there were a few of the Shards that Rayse Splintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

ARGENT

And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

ARGENT

So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

BRANDON SANDERSON

He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

ARGENT

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

ARGENT

Which is segue to Shards Investing in Shardworlds. So is it kind of a...passive...the more a Shard stays on a world, the Investiture kind of seeps...

#6: Number 69

Quote

QUESTION

Did Ambition fight back?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

QUESTION

And...Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got [Splintered] Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon: Heheheheh. I would say yes.

QUESTION

And Cultivation, is she--

BRANDON SANDERSON

She is still there. Alive and kicking.

QUESTION

And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, maybe. She has learned from the experiences of others.

[The One Who Connects]

6 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Also, this topic is edging into full Cosmere Theory territory.

Sorry about that Spool. @Khyrindor, shall we take this into it's own thread?

I have a full reply to your last post on copy/paste, so we will lose little to no momentum on the discussion

[Khyrindor]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Sorry about that Spool. @Khyrindor, shall we take this into it's own thread?

I have a full reply to your last post on copy/paste, so we will lose little to no momentum on the discussion

Sure, if you want to make it with your reply and link to this thread? I'll re-post the WoBs I found on there if you like as well.

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Khyrindor said:

Sure, if you want to make it with your reply and link to this thread? I'll re-post the WoBs I found on there if you like as well.

Fairly sure it'll give you a notification since I've quoted you in the post, but here it is just in case.

Odium/Autonomy Connection, and the Red Mist

My web browser is really glitching out at the moment, so if that's somehow a dead link, I apologize. I'll log off and back in to see if that fixes it