horneaters Origin of an Origin Story

[Krandacth]

The Horneater origin story, as told by Rock and paraphrased by me, goes something like this: "Always persecuted by the [rest of the] humans, the Horneaters' ancestors asked various spren for help. These spren offered to grant them their homes as their own, but warned that the [rest of the] humans also persecuted their kind (Kaladin scoffs at the idea of Horneaters being chopped down by woodsmen). The 'spren' of the mountain refuses to help them until they have proven they can cultivate a home for themselves on their barren slopes. When they do so, [she] it grants them  the home (which they had already made for themselves) that allowed them to live in relative peace alongside the [rest of the] humans."

I believe this is the story of a group of listeners that succeed in breaking from the cycle of desolations by convincing Cultivation to give them a human-like and -compatible form, thereby allowing interbreeding. I'll break this down into notions:

1) The persecution by [other] humans definitely aligns with the desolations.

2) All their pleas to the Spren are answered in terms of transformation: The suggestion that, by living in the forest, they would be targeted by woodsmen, or by living in the sea they would be targeted by fisherman, indicates that in those cases they would become wood or fish. Sounds like Listener forms to me.

3) When they went to the mountains they were not offered such an obvious transformation, and were basically asked to Cultivate the peaks into somewhere habitable in exchange for being sheltered from the persecution mentioned in part 1). On the face of it this seems like the weakest offer, seeming to be 'if you make a home for yourself, thereby making this place easily habitable by humans (and therefore accessible to the ones persecuting you), I'll let you live there'.

However, we know there is a Shardpool in the middle of the Horneater peaks, and the suggestion has been that it is Cultivation's, what with all the surprisingly habitable ecosystem. Perhaps, in fleeing to the peaks and Cultivating it into a home, a group of Listeners convinced Cultivation to grant them a human-like (and -compatible) form. It was this that made them safe from the humans, with whom they could now breed to dilute their hereditary vulnerability to Odium whilst maintaining their culture (hence the singing, and treating spren as gods).

What do you guys think?

Edited February 1, 2017 by Krandacth

[Jedal]

I didn't see it before, but I do now. This actually makes a lot of sense! But wouldn't that still grant Rock the ability to transform?

[Itchy Savant]

Since it happened so long ago, the horneater dna is probably very different so I doubt the transformations are possible (or easy anyways) but if Rock can what does that say about shallan?

[Jaconis]

Wow. 

This is a great theory. You could make an argument there is a transformation that the mountain gave. They are all big, tall, broad-shouldered...quite mountainous. 

[Krandacth]

So, no counter arguments? That's unusual here!

17 hours ago, Jaconis said:

You could make an argument there is a transformation that the mountain gave. They are all big, tall, broad-shouldered...quite mountainous. 

While this is true, my theory is that Cultivation more made them human-like than mountain-like, not actually being a Spren of the mountains and more a Spren-like being they discovered in the mountains. Also, most non-Odium Listener forms we've seen are quite stocky and broad.  As such, what you point out could be explained by Cultivation just leaving them their not-specifically-Listener physical characteristics when making them human-like.

[+Extesian]

I like the overall idea and connections you've made! I don't agree only with the theory that they were previously transformed into trees etc (of that's indeed what you're implying), i think it's metaphorical for them being actually hunted by humans. But that doesn't diminish the story and the theory that Cultivation provided them with a boon for proving themselves at, well, cultivation

[Krandacth]

11 hours ago, Extesian said:

I don't agree only with the theory that they were previously transformed into trees etc (of that's indeed what you're implying), i think it's metaphorical for them being actually hunted by humans.

Actually, I didn't mean to imply they did become trees/fish, more that in bonding tree-spren or ocean-spren they would become wood-like or fish-like creatures; I was personally imagining beings akin to Ents or Mermen, respectively.

[Jofwu]

I'm also not really sold on the aspect of them bonding certain spren in some situations. But it definitely sounds like you've hit on the basic origin of the horneaters.

Curious how the Herdazians might fit into the puzzle...

[Krandacth]

11 hours ago, jofwu said:

I'm also not really sold on the aspect of them bonding certain spren in some situations.

How so? Also, see above.

11 hours ago, jofwu said:

Curious how the Herdazians might fit into the puzzle...

Well, I'll get to work again when we get their creation myth