Hobbit Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) Hello everyone, I submitted this short story last year, and I'm very much looking forward to your comments on the revised version. On one hand, I've been working on improving both main characters, so please comment on your impressions of both the narrator and her conversation companion. On the other hand, I think I may have accidentally edited the life out of the story. For those of you who read the original, it was super snappy, and now I think the story has bloated, so comments about pacing and tone, if it stands out as a problem, would be appreciated. Finally, the ending didn't quite work the first time. Does it work any better now? I'm still struggling with how to "stick" it. Since I'm working at the edge of my editing skills here, I'm going to ask something unusual. Maybe this is a faux pas, but if you have any prescriptive advice, I would actually be happy to hear it. I know sometimes people try to avoid telling a writer how to fix their work, but in this case I'm trying to learn how to edit better and I'm at a place with this story where I'm spinning my wheels. Thank you! Edited January 30, 2017 by Hobbit Forgot word count... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromancer Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 Well, this story is slightly depressing. Analysis: C, the protagonist, is a typical unhappy protagonist – dead-end job, no marriage plans and only one outlet to express her frustration, that being yoga, but thinks that she’s stuck. C then has an encounter which opens her eyes to her position, and she resolves to better herself. The twist of the story being that she meets an actual dragon. The counter twist is that said dragon is a super cynic and a complete killjoy of life, the universe, and everything. The pacing is alright, though I think the twist could be a bit earlier – the twist is what got me interested in finishing the short story, and up until then it was just depressing. The tone – well, I’m not a really a happy person by nature, but this was a bit depressing for me. One of the main characters spends the entire conversation talking about the futility of interacting with other people and how loneliness will be the status quo. The ending reinforces that to a degree, it’s a bit weird. C decides to be alone, and she discovers jasmine tea inside her water bottle, which to me symbolized the extraordinary event that happened to her over the course of the story – which is she realizes that she doesn’t have to compromise with a mediocre life, just because it’s tolerable. Fine, but (NERD RANT ALERT) as a biology teacher, she should know that humans are pack animals by definition. Even introverts need to have close friends that they can relate to. While dragons may be loners (usually are), humans are social animals, and that means that although Dragon makes a good point about her ‘cage of joy’, his facts about humans are wrong. Editing tips: Aside from the one I most frequently get told (leave it alone for six months, and come back with a fresh pair of eyes), the best I can offer when it comes to fiction writing is to run through all the scenes focusing solely of the viewpoint of a single character, and do that for all characters within the scenes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 I'm not actually sure why people don't like/give prescriptive advice. It's not like we as writers can't chose to discard it or ignore it. I'm of the opinion that any feedback is good feedback. If someone took the time to read my stuff and make comments, they're lovely for it. Overall Clara has moved from creeper to 'probably going to be ax murdered next chapter'. It works for her character, to a point, but I note below when I can no longer suspend disbelief. You find your flow about halfway through, but early on the paragraph transitions are choppy and need a bit of tightening. Its much improved since the last one, and I enjoyed reading it! As I go - page one: damnation it, now I want a cookie - I'm noticing a lot of sentence fragments in these early paragraphs. Suggest cleaning. One every page or so isn't a big deal, but they're a little too frequent and are throwing me out of the flow - James needs to be punched in the face. Immediately. Douchery aside, wet boots on the hardwood is unforgivable - the 'why did I forget my umbrella' line is unneeded and hurts flow - page two: dude in a coffee shop whose name is dragon, and he goes to yoga... - page three: their convo is a lot better now, and a lot less 'clara pushing and dragon clearly shutting her down' - last few paragraphs of page four need dialogue tags - page six: she really is trying to hook a guy by consistently talking about her partner? Isn't that sending mixed signals? Like, if a woman was trying to pick me up and kept talking about her partner, we'd get like four lines in and I'd say something like "I don't do couples." - page seven: and here he is being perfectly reasonable and its like Clara is trying to talk him into an affair - page ten: wow, she recovers from him probably being a serial killer pretty fast. Whiplash - page eleven: her creeper vibe should be screaming right now, yet she is calm. Can't suspend disbelief anymore - I do like the ending 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 13 hours ago, kaisa said: creeper to 'probably going to be ax murdered next chapter'. Hoo boy, I snorted out loud at this one. I think @kaisa and I reading this the same way. 13 hours ago, kaisa said: I'm not actually sure why people don't like/give prescriptive advice. It's not like we as writers can't chose to discard it or ignore it. I'm of the opinion that any feedback is good feedback. If someone took the time to read my stuff and make comments, they're lovely for it. I'm of the same opinion. So...I'm not sure what your intention is, but I think this story shows the problem in talking to people without an open mind. For me, Clara almost comes across as tragic, unable to change even when confronted with the facts of her existence. She tries to smother others in her blanket of false happiness, but then gets upset when they have their own opinions. I'm firmly on Dragon's side from the beginning, because I've been in that same position, minding my own business when someone decided I didn't look happy enough for them and came to "cheer me up," or "give me something else to do besides read." Regardless, it hasn't gone well. The magic coming at the end makes me think this is unfinished. For example, if you wanted to go the tragic side, Clara suddenly realizes there's magic, and she's missed her chance while being falsely happy, and never finds Dragon again. If you want to go for character change/upbeat, have Clara realize what she's been doing, find Dragon, and promise to listen to him/learn from him. pg 3: "Someone runs bumps into my chair from behind and I scoot forward a little." --extra word pg 3: "But I’m sorry, I’m talking too much." --Still a little put off by Clara's intrusion into Dragon's space. He invited her to sit down, when she asked, but he obviously wouldn't have started the conversation, and Clara keeps talking at him. Scooting his chair in signals some acceptance, but everything he says is a closing phrase rather than one that leaves it open for more questions. pg 6: "I glare at him. It’s none of his business." --Ha. But she's the one who barged in and started talking about children. pg 7: “But you do. You will. That’s why you came over here.” --yep, fully on Dragon's side again. pg 8: "It’s suddenly clear how little I know about this person." --again, she was the one who plopped down. I'm starting to wonder about her naivete. pg 8: "I should leave. This is creepy." --yep. pg 9: "“Well,” I say, determined not to leave him - but also determined not to date him" --Are those the only two choices? pg 10: "“You expect everything to be amazing,” he says." --yeah, I think this is my problem with Clara too. pg 13: "It’s completely full of jasmine tea." --You don't say earlier that Dragon's tea is Jasmine. Might have gotten edited out? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 On 1/30/2017 at 10:31 AM, Hobbit said: Since I'm working at the edge of my editing skills here, I'm going to ask something unusual. Maybe this is a faux pas, but if you have any prescriptive advice, I would actually be happy to hear it. I know sometimes people try to avoid telling a writer how to fix their work, but in this case I'm trying to learn how to edit better and I'm at a place with this story where I'm spinning my wheels. I'm not critting this week (sorry) -- I can barely cadge a sentence out of myself to catch up with the writing right now (this is a bad time to be writing about a religiously-motivated neoliberal coup from the pov of the bad guys), so squeezing in crit around that isn't likely to happen, but I saw this and thought it was worth commenting on, because I have Thoughts on the subject and as to what makes for good crit when critting as a writer. See, like, I think the frequent caution against prescriptive advice is decent when it's people who are, like, reading as readers. You can be able to say what you like or not about a sausage without knowing how the sausage is made, so to speak. But I feel like especially in an environment where it's taken as given that crit exists wholly as a thing which already must be sifted through in order to make it useful for you, it really feels like a waste to me, as a writer, to not provide some thoughts as to how I might tackle a problem I perceive in a given text. Pretty much anyone can, I think, go through a text and point out some things they thought they thought worked or not, and say how it made them feel, etc. But we all theoretically know what we're doing with writing and have skills as writers, and I personally think it's a disservice to not offer crit that asseses these sorts of issues and offer guidance on what I would do to fix it. I do like to go in with the thought of 'what can I do to help this work that no one else can'. I dunno, I usually find that sort of advice, if not usable in its entirety as-is (and it usually isn't), can at least provide a signpost for solving issues in the text. The type of crit that frustrates me most is purely observational, for my own part. I also don't, as one may have gathered from works that I've expressed fondness for, don't read for crit the slightest bit similarly to how I read for pleasure. part of it's due to engagement (obviously stuff one seeks out because one wants to read it, as opposed to stuff sent for crit is going to have an inherent bump from the get-go in how engaged one is) in that I am generally a lot more forgiving of stuff that's already grabbed me, but also it's that, y'know, at that point it's already out, it's not requesting help. (not that I haven't read published stuff that felt like a cry for help, lol) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 27 minutes ago, neongrey said: it really feels like a waste to me, as a writer, to not provide some thoughts as to how I might tackle a problem I perceive in a given text. Pretty much anyone can, I think, go through a text and point out some things they thought they thought worked or not, and say how it made them feel, etc. But we all theoretically know what we're doing with writing and have skills as writers, and I personally think it's a disservice to not offer crit that asseses these sorts of issues and offer guidance on what I would do to fix it. I do like to go in with the thought of 'what can I do to help this work that no one else can'. Yes this! ^^ The best and most useful crits, for me, are ones that provide impressions AND prescriptive comments. I can't read the critiquer's mind and sometimes the idea given is just golden. And if it isn't, so what? We take what we can from a crit anyway, and we all have different skills. Like, if @Robinski or @aeromancer just wrote 'your physics seems off' I'd be like, uh, okay. I don't physics so... But when they give real examples of how to fix it, I have this, this thread I can start to unravel to actually make more story better, instead of floundering like fish on land. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted February 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 Thanks for all the comments so far! On January 30, 2017 at 9:24 PM, aeromancer said: The pacing is alright, though I think the twist could be a bit earlier – the twist is what got me interested in finishing the short story, and up until then it was just depressing. The tone – well, I’m not a really a happy person by nature, but this was a bit depressing for me. One of the main characters spends the entire conversation talking about the futility of interacting with other people and how loneliness will be the status quo. The ending reinforces that to a degree, it’s a bit weird. Interesting. I'm always fascinated to read how people react to this story. I consider it a stepping stone of success, as a novice writer, to have people reacting with feelings (depressed, super annoyed, etc) rather than, "Eh, I was kind of bored." So thanks for your perspective! It's very helpful. On January 30, 2017 at 9:24 PM, aeromancer said: Fine, but (NERD RANT ALERT) as a biology teacher, she should know that humans are pack animals by definition. Even introverts need to have close friends that they can relate to. While dragons may be loners (usually are), humans are social animals, and that means that although Dragon makes a good point about her ‘cage of joy’, his facts about humans are wrong. I wonder if I can actually play this up - you're absolutely right about the needs of their different species. Hmmm. I like it. Maybe this will work its way into their conversation. Clara could totally make this point: as you said, she's a biology teacher. On January 30, 2017 at 9:24 PM, aeromancer said: Aside from the one I most frequently get told (leave it alone for six months, and come back with a fresh pair of eyes), the best I can offer when it comes to fiction writing is to run through all the scenes focusing solely of the viewpoint of a single character, and do that for all characters within the scenes Both are good ideas. I want so badly to be DONE with this story, when I think I just need to realize: I'm a writer! I'm never going to be done! On January 30, 2017 at 10:42 PM, kaisa said: their convo is a lot better now, and a lot less 'clara pushing and dragon clearly shutting her down' Success! Phew. On January 30, 2017 at 10:42 PM, kaisa said: she really is trying to hook a guy by consistently talking about her partner? Isn't that sending mixed signals? Like, if a woman was trying to pick me up and kept talking about her partner, we'd get like four lines in and I'd say something like "I don't do couples." Yeah, I'm trying to write her as having mixed motives. She feels a lot of loyalty to her current dude, but she's kind of miserable and can't help fishing for an excuse to leave. I'll try to make this less confusing to the reader. On January 30, 2017 at 10:42 PM, kaisa said: page ten: wow, she recovers from him probably being a serial killer pretty fast. Whiplash - page eleven: her creeper vibe should be screaming right now, yet she is calm. Can't suspend disbelief anymore I made it farther this time! Baby steps. Good to know I still need to dial up her reaction. 21 hours ago, Mandamon said: I'm firmly on Dragon's side from the beginning, because I've been in that same position, minding my own business when someone decided I didn't look happy enough for them and came to "cheer me up," or "give me something else to do besides read." Regardless, it hasn't gone well. Oh no! "Something else to do besides read." Goodness. 21 hours ago, Mandamon said: The magic coming at the end makes me think this is unfinished. For example, if you wanted to go the tragic side, Clara suddenly realizes there's magic, and she's missed her chance while being falsely happy, and never finds Dragon again. If you want to go for character change/upbeat, have Clara realize what she's been doing, find Dragon, and promise to listen to him/learn from him. Hmmm. Good ideas to consider. Seems similar to what @aeromancer was saying - the reveal comes too late. I like the punch of the reveal at the end, but I suppose I need to give more of an indication of her trajectory, whether or not I move the reveal earlier. I see from the rest of your comments that I successfully avoided the annoyance level of, "At this point I would run screaming." Which still makes me laugh every time I read it. And thanks for catching the jasmine tea bit - I did accidentally edit that out! That's a big problem (though easily fixed)! 16 hours ago, neongrey said: (this is a bad time to be writing about a religiously-motivated neoliberal coup from the pov of the bad guys) Ah, yeah... 16 hours ago, kaisa said: 16 hours ago, neongrey said: it really feels like a waste to me, as a writer, to not provide some thoughts as to how I might tackle a problem I perceive in a given text. Pretty much anyone can, I think, go through a text and point out some things they thought they thought worked or not, and say how it made them feel, etc. But we all theoretically know what we're doing with writing and have skills as writers, and I personally think it's a disservice to not offer crit that asseses these sorts of issues and offer guidance on what I would do to fix it. I do like to go in with the thought of 'what can I do to help this work that no one else can'. Yes this! ^^ The best and most useful crits, for me, are ones that provide impressions AND prescriptive comments. I can't read the critiquer's mind and sometimes the idea given is just golden. And if it isn't, so what? We take what we can from a crit anyway, and we all have different skills. I absolutely agree! Thanks again everyone! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Hobbit said: Ah, yeah... It's simultaneously too real and not real enough in all the wrong ways and wow there is nothing quite like getting hit with a wave of 'wow do i really need to be writing this' every time I look at the page ha ha ha ha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Looking forward to seeing how things have changed since October. “I feel my chest expand with a sigh.” “maybe I need wine” – I am now identifying closely with this character. “he looks especially nice today” – I feel like this is a nothing word. Not that the character might not think it, but that, in thinking it, she’s not admitting to herself what she actually is thinking. So, I get no emotion from this though at all. Does she mean hot, well turned out, pleasant and welcoming? I’m not saying that she should think anything different than she does, just that it doesn’t really convey anything. No, wait, it conveys that she’s not willing to admit to herself how she actually feels about the guy. This is fine, carry on. Typo: “Someone runs bumps into my chair” – sorry, sure others have picked these, but it’s pretty much the only way I know how to comment. “That’s so great.” – This seems very gushy. He’s just switched yoga studios, not cured the common cold. But maybe uncomfortably gushy is what you were going for. Personally, I would hyphenate “thirty-minute”. Typo: “Maybe if I go to my James’s place, his cat will sleep on my head” – ROFL, just like last time. And that took me through to the end. I thought it read well, smoothly, smoother than the last time, if I remember correctly. I found the character interaction effective, certainly engaging enough that I was carried through the story. I don’t think I have sympathy for either character, not unqualified sympathy anyway. She is more sympathetic than he is, in my view. I find her reactions more convincing, whereas his, to me, get petulant. Why is that, I ask myself? If he’s a god, why is he not above such childish behaviour? So, I am entertained and engaged, and I think it is better than before. It’s still not exactly the sort of thing that would set me off pursuing an author’s other work, since the fantastical elements are few and not really all that relevant, it seemed to me. Which is odd maybe, since I enjoyed Of The Mountain Stream more, and yet I don’t think we’d seen any SFF elements in that first chapter. Anyway, good work, thanks for sharing again, and I would happily read more of OTMS, if you get back round to that, and actually, I would read anything else you submitted (despite above comment!), because I do enjoy your style. <R> p.s. - I find the title a bit cumbersome, compared for example to something snappier and more mysterious like 'Hot Tea'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) On 31/01/2017 at 3:42 AM, kaisa said: James needs to be punched in the face. Immediately. Douchery aside, wet boots on the hardwood is unforgivable ROFL On 31/01/2017 at 3:42 AM, kaisa said: probably going to be ax murdered next chapter Really, by whom? James? I didn't really get this association. On 31/01/2017 at 10:33 PM, neongrey said: The type of crit that frustrates me most is purely observational, for my own part. Hmm, I shall file this information away... Prescriptive comments? Well, your physics is off... (kidding! ) I agree about the ending, I want... more from it. I'm not entirely satisfied, I'm not even 100% convinced that I'm mostly satisfied. There is satisfaction, I feel like I've been along an arc, but not the entire arc of the story, like you've made promises that you haven't kept. What might those be? Well, there's a hint that Cl has 'changed' in that she's not going to Jas's house, but it's one night, she just as well could go back to him tomorrow. It feels rather like a decision, not a change. I feel like I want a clearer, more satisfying resolution that shows she has made a bigger change (assuming that's what you're going for). So, spitballing some random thoughts that I haven't thought through properly, but which feel like they might be satisfying: (1) - She goes out of the shop after Dragon, sees him in the street and calls, "Wait up." (2) - She phones her mum back and tells her she and James are through. (3) - She phones James up and tells him to pick up his d4mn boots, put them on and start walking. Maybe these are too obvious, but I feel like I want an ending that is at least a bit less open. Edited February 4, 2017 by Robinski typo! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Thanks @Robinski! I definitely appreciate the feedback, and the ideas! 9 hours ago, Robinski said: (3) - She phones James up and tells him to pick up his d4mn boots, put them on and start walking. Hahahaha love it. I'm hearing everyone that there needs to be more resolution. I'm going to do some experimenting and see what I can come up with! 9 hours ago, Robinski said: Anyway, good work, thanks for sharing again, and I would happily read more of OTMS, if you get back round to that, and actually, I would read anything else you submitted (despite above comment!), because I do enjoy your style. Awww thanks! I feel very honored. OTMS is my baby, so I'm glad you liked it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, Hobbit said: OTMS is my baby, so I'm glad you liked it. I just felt like we were getting into it, there was tension and the conflict was starting to rise, when it stopped. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Well, don't worry, it's still around. It may even come back to the forum. I just got to a point with it where I was like, "What am I even doing?!?!?" because the plot bloated and then fizzled. That point was at about 200,000 words in... so I'm hoping to amass some more skills before trying to untangle a knot the size of my kitchen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Puddles Posted February 16, 2017 Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Hi Hobbit, I looked forward to reading this, and seeing how it might change after the initial posting. And I liked this draft more. I remember the feeling I had the first time, and this time, and I was able to becoem more engaged with the story this time. I did make some notes, and I will get to them in a moment, but first some general thoughts. The conversation flow between Cl and Dragon was better I think she dismisses the dangerous serial killer vibe too quick. She would be searching the room for other people too, wouldn't she? Not just looking at adverts. She will want to know she is not alone and safe in the 'company' of others I like the ending, and I think Claire should make a more definitive choice at the end. Could you perhaps have her think of an invitation to go for drinks with a colleage near the start, and then have her call James and tel lhim she's goign out with friends and not goign over tonight? I don't know what happens next, or if you're next chapter takes place in a week or ten minutes, so this might not work. Your first line isn't as stark or powerful as it could be. What do you think of this; I find peace in the rain...etc. Then write an emotial reaction to the way the water feel on her skin as it drips to the ground. -Just an idea. Quote Suddenly All I can think of is a vanilla... Quote I won't die of thirst on the way home,I tell myself. But and a little pick-me-up would be nice. Quote I feel my chest expand in a sigh. Quote ...all casual as if he hadn't screamed at me that if I stopped birth control this it was definitely over. He already had one kid, and one kid every other weekend was plenty enough. Quote At least I had gotten him to talk about the idea kids. Quote ...spread my yoga mat over my head, and start jogging jog across the street...It's good Moisture's good for the plants... Quote Someone bumps inot my chair form behin and I scoot forward a little. (She doesn't glance over her shoulder? I can't buy that). Page 3 Quote I swallow and don't answer. -I think you need to add something here. Emphasize the action. Maybe gulp? I think it reads better if you swap the position of these phrases: Quote After my fight with James this morning, this guy looks especially hot today. Page 4 You need a new paragraph after the dialogue here: Quote People aren't always lonely." I try to think of someone who isnt'... Quote His expression darkens. I wonder if he just broke up with someone. Quote Maybe that's why his girlfriend borke up with him? I have trouble imagining 'drops' of foam on the window. Perhaps just say that she splatterred foam on the window? You have some weird formatting here: Quote But then he looks into his tea and says, "And how beautiful..." It should all be on the same line. Quote I try to make up some karma. Huh? Quote A couple walks laughing out the door behind him. Awkward sentence. A couple, laughing at some private joke, step through the doorway behind him. Quote He watches studies me with a curious... I think you can really emphasize the end of this paragraph by adding, "But ten?" at the end of it: Quote ...Maybe he's scared of having friends?(need question mark) Besides, I've never heard of serial killers doing yoga. But ten? Quote Why had I said that? -> Why'd I say that? Quote ...I say, wondering why I'm saying this. say this. Quote ...I hiss, trying not to shout. (then later)...Dragon hisses back. People don't hiss. Maybe the word 'snap' works better? I notice that she's not usign James name when she speaks with Dragon. Is this intential on your part? She keeps referring to James as 'my partner'. Quote I hope you find some freedom from your cage of joy. Suggestion: I hope you escape your cage of joy. Quote I pull the lid off my latte and put it in the recycling, then drop the cup in the compost. -> I pull the lid off my latte, put it in the recycling bin, and drop the cup into the compost. Quote And if Jems gets upset...well, he'll havel all night to deal with those feelings by himself. it by himself. To recap: I liked it. Your writing imrpoved, and I found the dialogue more believable than before. I think you can ramp up the affect the conversation with Dragon has on Claire by her making an obvious choice to do something differently at the end, and seek human contact other than James. (In some way, she's already decided to do that by approaching Dragon). Just take it one step further. I don't think you removed the life of the story in the re-write. I think you made it more succint. I hope this helps. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbit Posted February 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2017 Thanks for reading M.Puddles! 12 hours ago, M.Puddles said: I think she dismisses the dangerous serial killer vibe too quick. She would be searching the room for other people too, wouldn't she? Not just looking at adverts. She will want to know she is not alone and safe in the 'company' of others This is a common bit of feedback. I like the idea of how to show her concern more - I was having trouble finding more ways to express that feeling. 12 hours ago, M.Puddles said: I like the ending, and I think Claire should make a more definitive choice at the end. This is also a common thread, so I'll definitely be working on this. 12 hours ago, M.Puddles said: I don't think you removed the life of the story in the re-write. I think you made it more succint. Excellent! I suppose after staring at it for so long, it's easy to become jaded. I'm glad it felt more succinct this time. Thanks again! Your feedback is definitely helpful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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