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Helaran was a Surge Binder?


DarkJester

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Ok. I was listening to WoR again, and something caught my attention this time I've missed before. Was Helaran a surge binder? I was listening to the section where Taravangian had just had a run in with Szeth and learned about Dalinar's "radiant." Taravangian is contemplating the situation and he's talking about the fact that Jasnah was a surge binder and that he thought that Shalan was one. He went on to contemplate that Jasnah had trained her  already or that perhaps her brother had trained her before he died. To me, this implies that Helaran was actually a surge binder, and not just a shard bearer... Is that right, and if so, what order? I mean if he was a surge binder, it suddenly makes more sense for Hoid to be knowledgeable of him...

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From chapter 88:

Quote

“Because, you are ignorant.” Mraize stepped closer to her, towering over her. “You don’t know who we are. You don’t know what we’re trying to accomplish. You don’t know much of anything at all, Veil. Why did your father join us? Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers?

Consequently there's been much speculation that Helaran was a Skybreaker. Which has in turn led to theories such as it not being Helaran that Kaladin killed.

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57 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

From chapter 88:

Consequently there's been much speculation that Helaran was a Skybreaker. Which has in turn led to theories such as it not being Helaran that Kaladin killed.

I agree, when I read Mraize dropping that nugget to Shallan that her brother had "sought out the Skybreakers" as something she didn't know, and especially after reading the section in Edgedancer showing that Nalan's Skybreaker followers were, indeed, Surgebinders, I suspected that Kaladin had killed someone else on that battlefield.

Whether or not Helaran actually managed to join the Skybreakers is unknown. I don't think any red-haired guys were mentioned among his followers in either WoR or Edgedancer, I'll have to go re-read those parts later, that would be a pretty big hint.

 

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10 hours ago, DarkJester said:

Ok. I was listening to WoR again, and something caught my attention this time I've missed before. Was Helaran a surge binder? I was listening to the section where Taravangian had just had a run in with Szeth and learned about Dalinar's "radiant." Taravangian is contemplating the situation and he's talking about the fact that Jasnah was a surge binder and that he thought that Shalan was one. He went on to contemplate that Jasnah had trained her  already or that perhaps her brother had trained her before he died. To me, this implies that Helaran was actually a surge binder, and not just a shard bearer... Is that right, and if so, what order? I mean if he was a surge binder, it suddenly makes more sense for Hoid to be knowledgeable of him...

Mmmm, yes I've put forth this theory before (as have many others) but among other points are the Hoid connection and the sense of rightness that Shallan attributes to Helaran.

But, we don't exactly know. Being a Skybreakers makes the most sense though...as...

8 hours ago, robardin said:

I agree, when I read Mraize dropping that nugget to Shallan that her brother had "sought out the Skybreakers" as something she didn't know, and especially after reading the section in Edgedancer showing that Nalan's Skybreaker followers were, indeed, Surgebinders, I suspected that Kaladin had killed someone else on that battlefield.

Whether or not Helaran actually managed to join the Skybreakers is unknown. I don't think any red-haired guys were mentioned among his followers in either WoR or Edgedancer, I'll have to go re-read those parts later, that would be a pretty big hint.

 

Our opinions differ here though, I think Helaran was a Shardbearer Radiant from in the flashback when we see him draw weapon on Lin. Further, it is Helaran who Kaladin kills. It makes sense from a number of perspectives, but a spearhead to the face and through the eye to the brain would seem to be one of the few really reliable ways to kill a Radiant with access to an abundance of Stormlight. I think there was a deleted chapter (Jasnah's) on this, that a severe head wound was one of the few ways to kill a Surgebinder. Specifically it mentioned a crushing head wound, as I recall, but realisitcally stabbing a spearhead into the skull and leaving it there would suffice for these purposes. 

But, it also makes sense from a more mundane angle. We have three Kholin's confirmed Radiant, why not two Davars? 

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1 hour ago, Savanorn said:

Mmmm, yes I've put forth this theory before (as have many others) but among other points are the Hoid connection and the sense of rightness that Shallan attributes to Helaran.

But, we don't exactly know. Being a Skybreakers makes the most sense though...as...

Our opinions differ here though, I think Helaran was a Shardbearer Radiant from in the flashback when we see him draw weapon on Lin. Further, it is Helaran who Kaladin kills. It makes sense from a number of perspectives, but a spearhead to the face and through the eye to the brain would seem to be one of the few really reliable ways to kill a Radiant with access to an abundance of Stormlight. I think there was a deleted chapter (Jasnah's) on this, that a severe head wound was one of the few ways to kill a Surgebinder. Specifically it mentioned a crushing head wound, as I recall, but realisitcally stabbing a spearhead into the skull and leaving it there would suffice for these purposes. 

But, it also makes sense from a more mundane angle. We have three Kholin's confirmed Radiant, why not two Davars? 

If that's the case though, then it wouldn't explain why his Shardblade was dropped. Whoever Kaladin killed wasn't a knight radiant, as they wouldn't have had any shards afterwards if he had been.

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4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

If that's the case though, then it wouldn't explain why his Shardblade was dropped. Whoever Kaladin killed wasn't a knight radiant, as they wouldn't have had any shards afterwards if he had been.

By all means, my spren-fu is lacking, but I presumed that a spren in physical form (a blade) would be trapped as such if it's wielder was adequately advance and it's wielder was killed, given certain conditions. 

Basically, I was of the mind that in breaking an Oath -such as in the Recreance, presuming that is what happened- a Radiant basically removes the 'bridge' that binds Spren and Radiant in a violent and traumatic way. This withdrawal of human-dependent sentience done so rapidly and suddenly results in the 'death' of the spren.

Likewise, I would have thought that the actual physical death of the person would result in a similar sudden violent withdrawal of investiture and result in a dead, trapped or 'stupid' spren. 

But, I also thought that dead spren were only preserved as shardblades if they were such when they died. Thus why, as I recall, the Windrunners and Stonewards jam their shardblades into the earth as they are walking away from Feverstone Keep.  

Thus why the Recreance gave Shards, but not a HUGE amount, and why Helaran left Shards when he died. 

 

But you know things on occasion Spool, so I'd trust you likely have either a theory or WoB to counter my point.  (I say without irony)

 

Edited by Savanorn
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@Savanorn actually no, A Kr's death isn't a problem for the spren (sure sadness and trauma but nothing else). Much more, Helaran's Blade had a gem in it, the sign of a Deadblade's bond.

We may also add the fact the Blade is no different now from before (The Randiant's Blades glow and become dull after the "Spren's Death".

EDIT to add a relevant WoB:

Quote

QUESTION

We were talking that it's kind of a shame that Dalinar doesn't have his own "real" spren. I think it's an upgrade, is there a way I should think of this? Is it a cool thing or a bad thing?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's a cool thing, it's also a very dangerous thing.

QUESTION

Well [the Stormfather] controls the highstorms ... follow-up question: if he dies, does that affect the spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Dying, as long as the oaths are not broken, does not affect the spren in a very terrible way. There are effects.

 

Edited by Yata
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@Yata and @Spoolofwhool are correct, a Knight Radiant dying does not by itself kill their spren. I remember reading a WoB to that effect, though I can't remember where and my searching did not it them up. :( 

The way I see it there are only four possibilities here:

  1. Helaran was never a Surgebinder.
  2. Helaran was a Surgebinder, but he was bonded to a dead Shardblade as well and was somehow able to ignore the screaming in his head.
  3. Helaran was at one point a Surgebinder, but he betrayed his oaths leaving him with only a dead Shardblade.
  4. Helaran wasn't killed by Kaladin

Edit: Of course I only see @Yata's edit with the very WoB I was thinking of after I post this. -_-

Edited by BlackYeti
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32 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:
  1. Helaran was at one point a Surgebinder, but he betrayed his oaths leaving him with only a dead Shardblade.

This may be a really strange but possible hypotesis...I had only to check if in the Shallen's Flashback the Blade is already a deadblade.

34 minutes ago, BlackYeti said:

Edit: Of course I only see @Yata's edit with the very WoB I was thinking of after I post this. -_-

I am a magician, BlackYeti ;-)

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7 hours ago, Yata said:

@Savanorn actually no, A Kr's death isn't a problem for the spren (sure sadness and trauma but nothing else).

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but doesn't Syl say a few things that suggest she has bonded a human in the past, and is starting to "remember" how things work in a "oh yeah, I've done it before and it's coming back to me now" kind of way, rather than Pattern or Wyndle talking like they're trying to remember what they were taught "on the other side" before bonding?

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11 minutes ago, robardin said:

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but doesn't Syl say a few things that suggest she has bonded a human in the past, and is starting to "remember" how things work in a "oh yeah, I've done it before and it's coming back to me now" kind of way, rather than Pattern or Wyndle talking like they're trying to remember what they were taught "on the other side" before bonding?

I think what she says is something like "I've helped men kill before", which does imply she is older than the Recreance, and has bonded people before, yes.

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9 hours ago, Yata said:

@Savanorn actually no, A Kr's death isn't a problem for the spren (sure sadness and trauma but nothing else). Much more, Helaran's Blade had a gem in it, the sign of a Deadblade's bond.

We may also add the fact the Blade is no different now from before (The Randiant's Blades glow and become dull after the "Spren's Death".

EDIT to add a relevant WoB:

 

Ah darn. That complicates things.

At least this is rather interesting from a surgebinding point of view. So breaking an Oath is, in some cases, literally worse than death. 

But I am curious Yata, what do you think happens to a spren when the Radiant dies? Do they instantly go stupid again? Return to the cognitive? Or is it a slow slip?

I'm not sure how admissible blade glow is, though, as even normal shardblades have been referred to as shining works of perfection. To really appreciate the difference I would think you'd have to see them in contrast.

Still, given Vargo's opinion I'd think it still likely Helaran was a Radiant.

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Heleran may have been (or become) a Skybreaker, but not based on anything we've seen him do - it'd be based on Mraize saying he "sought out the Skybreakers" at some point, presumably intending to join them.

The Shardblade he waved in his father's face was definitely a "deadspren" Blade. That was also definitely the same Blade as wielded by the man that Kaladin killed, who also wore Shardplate.

So either Heleran was the one killed by Kaladin; or he gave his Blade (at least) to some other Veden youth to get offed by Kaladin, whether or not that was because he bonded to a spren (which would be AFTER leaving home with the deadspren Blade).

We have not seen any other current-gen Radiant with both Blade and Plate, not even Jasnah who's been one the longest of any we've seen, so that would put Heleran ahead of the curve as well as being mysteriously off-screen. Or, if the Skybreakers are (as a group) more "advanced" than Jasnah, Shallan, Kaladin, et al., because they've been continuously organized in secret under Nalan since the Recreance, he'd be one of the most senior ones, since in Edgedancer,

Spoiler

we don't see any "trainee" Radiants under Nalan who can do more than suck in Stormlight - he even says to them that they need to "advance" to being a Shardbearer. If Heleran is indeed a Skybreaker, he's somehow off on his own mission under Nalan - Skybreakers seem to be hierarchical, like Windrunners.

 

 

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

We have not seen any other current-gen Radiant with both Blade and Plate, not even Jasnah who's been one the longest of any we've seen, so that would put Heleran ahead of the curve as well as being mysteriously off-screen. Or, if the Skybreakers are (as a group) more "advanced" than Jasnah, Shallan, Kaladin, et al., because they've been continuously organized in secret under Nalan since the Recreance, he'd be one of the most senior ones, since in Edgedancer,

  Hide contents

we don't see any "trainee" Radiants under Nalan who can do more than suck in Stormlight - he even says to them that they need to "advance" to being a Shardbearer. If Heleran is indeed a Skybreaker, he's somehow off on his own mission under Nalan - Skybreakers seem to be hierarchical, like Windrunners.

 

Edgedancer Spoilers

Spoiler

Don't forget that in the WoR interlude with Lift, we see a minion with a shardblade, but as you say, the ones with Nale in Edgedancer haven't progressed to shardblades yet, so either the minion was holding onto something which wasn't a live sprenblade, or there were more Skybreakers working out in the field. 

 

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9 hours ago, Savanorn said:

But I am curious Yata, what do you think happens to a spren when the Radiant dies? Do they instantly go stupid again? Return to the cognitive? Or is it a slow slip?

Actually it's hard to say...If they has some time before go stupid...they may flee in the Cognitive to avoid the situation (something like what Pattern did, but he had a lot of time to do this).

As far as I can understand of the bond, a Radiant Spren who misses his/her bond will suffer quite in second a mental regretion...We saw the Bonds are released at death (physical death, not spiritual) so in the end it's theoretical possible for a Radiant Spren to return mindless after his Radiant was lethal injoured but then healed (of course is a speculation)...This would be a nice question to mister Sanderson

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