wob CAUTION: Potential Changes to Savants

[+robardin]

18 hours ago, Zmann966 said:

I always assumed a physical metal has drawbacks in the physical sense... But emotional or mental or other allomancy would have emotional or mental or other effects.

Bronze, I always saw that Seeker Savants would be paranoid w/o their metal burning. ...

Copper? A Savant should feel exposed or vulnerable. Emotionally susceptible, even if they're not under Zinc/Brass influence. Naked and singled-out, even in a crowd. A mental-state that affects a Savant counter to their metal's abilities.

Tin is physical internal, and it screws up a savant's body physically.
Pewter is a physical internal, it should do the same, warping a Savant's body.

Steel is an external physical metal? It shouldn't necessarily mess with Wax's body... Maybe in the grand scheme of cosmere-karma he's more likely to get shot, lol.

Emotional savants should feel socially awkward or emotionally unstable/introverted/unable to connect when they're not tapping into their metals and messing with emotions.

We've seen what happens to Soulcaster Savants, they start to take on attributes of the physical materials they change. For people who control the states of materials and exert their intent on changing such things, it seems fair that the drawback would be an alteration of their own physical states. Their Transformation surge lashes back onto them.

But man, I'd hate to see what a Gravitation Surge Savant's drawback is... Or, worse, a Growth Savant...

I like this angle. I hope Wayne and Marasi never become time bubble savants, that could be even stranger than a gravitational surge savant "going off of Investiture cold turkey". Or Allomantic electrum.

[Ari]

12 hours ago, Yata said:

I don't think we will see another Surge Savant. The RK are quite immune to this, thanks to their Stormlight's healing. Other Surge Fabrial will be probably not used as frequently as the Soulcaster (with the exception of a Progression Fabrial but in this case, you may heal your soul with the Fabrial itself)

Didn't Brandon kinda imply in his quote that the Spren acts as a sort of "release valve" for the investiture that prevents an effect like Allomantic savantism?

Your explanation has issues with twinborn that have feruchemical gold becoming savants, for instance.

[Yata]

19 hours ago, Ari said:

Didn't Brandon kinda imply in his quote that the Spren acts as a sort of "release valve" for the investiture that prevents an effect like Allomantic savantism?

Your explanation has issues with twinborn that have feruchemical gold becoming savants, for instance.

You have indeed right for the Bloodmaker, also if I don't remember wrong the only character we know with F-Healing and Savantism is TLR and He could worked out on his Cognitive Image (the pattern with the Healing works) as we saw for example He didn't revert to old when He tapped Healing.

About the Spren as Release valve, I think the only reference to that, is about the uncontrolled power left on Roshar from Honor's Splintering (as counter example of Sel, where the Seon and Skaze aren't enought to provide a release valve to the D&D's Investiture) but I maybe I simply missed the WoB

[Oversleep]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

About the Spren as Release valve, I think the only reference to that, is about the uncontrolled power left on Roshar from Honor's Splintering (as counter example of Sel, where the Seon and Skaze aren't enought to provide a release valve to the D&D's Investiture) but I maybe I simply missed the WoB

No, you're right:

Quote

sufficientlyadvanced

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

Brandon Sanderson ()

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

Brandon Sanderson

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Windrunner17

This is an awesome answer!

If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered?

Thanks!

Brandon Sanderson

No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. (One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The Seons and the Skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous.

It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial.

source

 

[orangesrhyme]

So, as I recall, Savantism comes from Investiture flowing through the cracks present in an Initiated individual's soul, and by nature of the power flowing through them, widens those cracks. I don't think Feruchemists can really become savants, because the power isn't really flowing through and out like Allomancy, but simply being relocated in the net-zero system. Allomancers are drawing from Preservation itself and externally using that power, eroding their Spiritweb when flared - allowing for a greater draw of power through those channels, but also creating more drastic (and less "tuneable") effects paired with withdrawals when that power is removed.

This also makes sense as to why KR can't really be Savants either, and why Honorblades and Soulcasting fabrials are dangerous. Instead of storing Investiture and then releasing it, somebody using one of these devices is really just acting like a conduit for that Investiture, eventually wearing unnatural tracks into their soul (as they've never been Initiated, this likely causes worse effects than somebody like Spook or Wax).

Hopefully that was clear as far as my understanding and theorizing.

[The One Who Connects]

I agree with more or less all of your understanding of the situation in your post.

17 hours ago, orangesrhyme said:

and why Honorblades and Soulcasting Fabrials are dangerous. Instead of storing Investiture and then releasing it, somebody using one of these devices is really just acting like a conduit for that Investiture, eventually wearing unnatural tracks into their soul.

This part stood out to me though, and it falls to someone more knowledgeable than I to confirm/deny this. The highlighted sections make it sound like your soul could be sufficiently "broken" enough for a Spren bond purely from using an Honorblade too much. You'd have to live the right lifestyle (and possibly give up the Honorblade) but it seems theoretically possible, which is why I feel like this is too easy.

[Zmann966]

On 1/2/2017 at 4:49 PM, orangesrhyme said:

This also makes sense as to why KR can't really be Savants either, and why Honorblades and Soulcasting fabrials are dangerous. Instead of storing Investiture and then releasing it, somebody using one of these devices is really just acting like a conduit for that Investiture, eventually wearing unnatural tracks into their soul (as they've never been Initiated, this likely causes worse effects than somebody like Spook or Wax).

And suddenly we have part of the reason why the Heralds are so screwed up and insane. Nale especially.

[Tarion]

On 22/12/2016 at 5:14 PM, robardin said:

If you take Spook in HoA as the best (only clear) example of an Allomantic Savant exhibiting the damaging consequences, it's that he's hyper-sensitive all the time, and when he finally turns off his tin, his senses are all but completely off (rather than restored to normal human levels).

So a Copper savant would probably suffer from being hyper-susceptible to emotional Allomancy if they ever turned it off.

A Bronze savant? Hard to figure that someone with Bronze would become one, as there is little obvious reason to be "constantly flaring" one's bronze.

The issue I have with this is that it seems to go against Sazed's words in Hero of Ages.

They are called Allomantic savants. Men or women who flare their metals so long, and so hard, that the constant influx of Allomantic power transforms their very physiology.

In most cases, with most metals, the effects of this are very slight. Bronze burners, for instance, often become bronze savants without knowing it. Their range is expanded from burning the metal so long. Becoming a pewter savant is dangerous, as it requires pushing the body so hard in a state where one cannot feel exhaustion or pain. Most accidentally kill themselves before the process is complete, and in my opinion, the benefit isn't worth the effort.
Tin savants, however . . . now, they are something special. Endowed with senses beyond what any normal Allomancer would need—or even want—they become slaves to what they touch, hear, see, smell, and taste. Yet, the abnormal power of these senses gives them a distinct, and interesting, advantage.
One could argue that, like an Inquisitor who has been transformed by a Hemalurgic spike, the Allomantic savant is no longer even human.

It seems clear here that Tin and Pewter (Unsurprisingly, the Physical Internal metals) are the really significant ones, and that the others have only "slight" effects. Even Pewter's downside results directly from burning Pewter all the time, which is dangerous, rather than a downside of the act of becoming a Savant. 

I would hope that if the canon changes, it does so in a way that doesn't retcon HoA too badly. It seems like it might already be there though, as I don't think the quotes in the OP really fit with the presentation of Savantism as a whole in HoA. 

[Argent]

28 minutes ago, Tarion said:

I would hope that if the canon changes, it does so in a way that doesn't retcon HoA too badly. It seems like it might already be there though, as I don't think the quotes in the OP really fit with the presentation of Savantism as a whole in HoA. 

I think this is really about Wax's specific case, or maybe double power savants in general. I don't think Era 1 will be affected either way.

[+robardin]

That's right, Sazed did mention Bronze as one of the Allomantic metals whose Mistings "often" go savant. Which even at the time I read it kind of surprised me, since without a Coppercloud around to mask his Allomancy, someone like Marsh going around burning Bronze all the time would eventually catch the attention of an Inquisitor who was also burning Bronze. Unless Marsh detected the Inquisitor first and quickly "shut it down", but then, he could logically avoid that risky scenario completely simply by never burning Bronze.

But that's for a skaa Allomancer, who were obviously rare - a noble-born Seeker could Seek without fear, in which case they might well be constantly on the scan out of paranoia, or looking to unearth the valuable information as to who else in which Houses were Allomancers. The only tough nuts to crack would be Copperclouds and full Mistborn.

 

[Djarskublar]

On 1/3/2017 at 9:44 AM, The One Who Connects said:

I agree with more or less all of your understanding of the situation in your post.

This part stood out to me though, and it falls to someone more knowledgeable than I to confirm/deny this. The highlighted sections make it sound like your soul could be sufficiently "broken" enough for a Spren bond purely from using an Honorblade too much. You'd have to live the right lifestyle (and possibly give up the Honorblade) but it seems theoretically possible, which is why I feel like this is too easy.

I have actually asked Brandon about this. I asked if being spiked with some Allomancy and then becoming a savant with the power cracks you enough to become a Radiant, and he said it does, but apparently the spike scares off spren like Syl, though he directly implied that it would open you up to Odium's influence. So, if you are just already an Allomancer, then becoming a Savant is probably damaging enough to qualify for Radianthood. That is an off-topic paragraph though.

2 hours ago, Argent said:

I think this is really about Wax's specific case, or maybe double power savants in general. I don't think Era 1 will be affected either way.

I agree with this. +1 for Argent.

[orangesrhyme]

On 1/3/2017 at 11:44 AM, The One Who Connects said:

I agree with more or less all of your understanding of the situation in your post.

This part stood out to me though, and it falls to someone more knowledgeable than I to confirm/deny this. The highlighted sections make it sound like your soul could be sufficiently "broken" enough for a Spren bond purely from using an Honorblade too much. You'd have to live the right lifestyle (and possibly give up the Honorblade) but it seems theoretically possible, which is why I feel like this is too easy.

That's a pretty valid point, one that I'm also not quite authoritative enough to fully speculate on... But I'd wager that the "brokenness" that we see in Nale and the other mad Heralds isn't exactly easy (after all, we know from Szeth's POVs that there's quite a bit of inner turmoil, and he had the Honorblade for a couple of decades at most - granted, his madness was definitely more from other things than the Honorblade, but I digress, it was still likely a factor), and may even prevent ones like them from being able to attract the appropriate spren for a Nahel bond.

[Turtle373]

On 12/22/2016 at 9:14 AM, robardin said:

A Bronze savant? Hard to figure that someone with Bronze would become one, as there is little obvious reason to be "constantly flaring" one's bronze.

I believe Marsh became one, and he was able to determine the kinds of emotions that soothers/rioters were trying to manipulate and Vin accomplished this by burning duralumin and bronze at the same time. I also found this

Quote

Someone asked Brandon about Allomantic bronze detecting Feruchemy. Brandon responded with yes, but no one on Scadrial knows how to do this (at least now). The interesting thing is that Brandon said that Allomantic bronze could theoretically detect any "Kinetic Investiture". Note that I am capitalizing Kinetic there, as Innate Investiture was. Pretty awesome to get that new term. I am assuming it is the difference between a metalmind being Invested and actually using Feruchemy, or a person having a lot of Breath and someone actually Awakening.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic

so maybe bronze savants can determine when other forms of investiture are being used, but since they aren't very many bronze savants then no one knows how to do this

I may be completely wrong, and Marsh isn't even a bronze savant, but just putting that out there

[Oversleep]

Quoth Harmony:

Quote

In most cases, with most metals, the effects of this are very slight. Bronze burners, for instance, often become bronze savants without knowing it. Their range is expanded from burning the metal so long.

If they're often becoming savants even without knowing it I guess it's pretty common.

[Zmann966]

22 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Quoth Harmony:

If they're often becoming savants even without knowing it I guess it's pretty common.

I imagine Copper would have a lot of Savants for similar reasons, and not just in the Skaa who are trying to hide. It's ability to shield from emotional allomancy means even the nobility would probably burn it as often as possible too.

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah. Copper is cheap, certainly for a noble, and if you have enough metal there's really no disadvantage to having Copper on all the time unless you are a Mistborn or standing close to an allied Seeker.